Is There a "Best," or "Worst" Chapter Tactic?

[Sevatar]

Good points Hesh Kadesh, thanks for sharing.

 

Why do rate the Raven Guard and Alpha Legion on the same level? Given the ability to Infiltrate Terminators, and the meh rules of Corax, should Alphas not be top tier?

[Brofist]

One thing about AL: you give up a VP if you loose more KP than your opponent. It's not that big a drawback considering the perks, but it does mean you'll loose more close games.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Good points Hesh Kadesh, thanks for sharing.

 

Why do rate the Raven Guard and Alpha Legion on the same level? Given the ability to Infiltrate Terminators, and the meh rules of Corax, should Alphas not be top tier?

Infiltrate terminators are kinda cool, but kinda meh, too. Infiltrate doesn't win the AL games. It has a niche; usually one to give Grav Rapiers and Tyrants the ability to deploy in the most optimum position. Not so much for getting close.

 

Movement wins games. Moving faster, deploying in the best locations. Drop Pods are the best way to do that. As someone who doesn't run Drop Pods in 40K because I find Bikes are better, and have done since I was able to take bikes as troops in 4th edition, I've found bikes better than Drop Pods or Rhino rush, or Razorspam or Deathwing in the various iterations of how to build marines lists. I hope that says something of how highly I rate Drop Podding; especially when immediately after the release of Book 1, Orbital Strike was the weakest Rite of War, and that the Sons of Horus were among the weakest of legions.

 

Now, they're high tier.

 

Alpha Legions main strength; they can kill tanks like no tomorrow. Guess what's powerful in the 30K meta.

 

Tanks.

 

They can kill infantry easier than other legions, especially when their Primarch's on the field. I've seen too many lists where people spam Anti infantry, and neglect their anti tank, because they have a ton of Banestrike/Sniper/Volkites infiltrating with Preferred Enemy, but really, they're overexcelling, leaving weak points in the list against armour. Armour is strong, because it's counters are few and far between. There used to be a few; Air Power, Melta, Haywire and Graviton. Air Power went out the window the moment the Deredeo came out. Literally.

 

The Deredeo does have blind spots, leading the way for a DSing Lightning to deploy 4 one shot missiles and a TL Lascannon before it cops 4 TL BS5 Skyfire Sunder shells and is either forced to Jink or Die. No point in taking anything NOT one shot, either, as it's unlikely to survive, and no blasts either. The Xiphon is okay, but its comparative slow turn speed and primarily anti-air (and other light armour) components like Lascannons make it ineffective for hitting heavy tanks which can dominate the meta.  The Fire Raptor has an MEQ and massive threat range, able to take on Flyers with its RACB and even light ones with its Avenger, but is otherwise incapable of hitting hardened targets. The Storm Eagle is a troop transport. TL Lascannons get you nowhere. Even a Roc Pattern from IA12 would be pretty poor against the targets you need it to be good at.

 

All of which are also countered by a Deredeo, which can reasonably inflict 3HP's of damage against AV12.

 

Melta; armoured ceramite's ease of access. Now, this is only a problem vs Land Raiders and their heavier cousins, Spartans, Cerberus and Typhons. Even Super heavies, with AV12 suffer thanks to melta, armoured ceramite or no. You've got a S8 weapon sat 12" away, with a 50% chance to cause a HP in damage to you if it hits.

 

haywire; niche option. There's, what, 7 units in the Legion list with access to haywire. These are big; and I love them. Legion Dreads because they're a valuable point saver despite the advantages over a Contemptor (effectively +1 HP and fleet? No thanks), and Rapiers notably. Others exist, but there's a reason those aren't being spammed; Blast weapon on an AV10 Open Topped 2HP Skimmer reliant on jink to stay alive, or too expensive, or legion specific niche, or only 1 blast a turn on a platform which is reliant on jink and is unlikely to last longer than its single strike especially with weaponry like that around, and a Super Heavy Tank.

 

Destroyer; a ~500pt niche. 

 

Now, Alpha Legion; they bring tank hunters. Consider a Grav Rapier Squad. To kill a spartan, you need 6 shots, statistically, because one will come up as a 1 (in it's most simple form, anyway). AL, with TH. They save 75pts, by not needing that 6th. A Praevian brings Tank Hunting Dark Lances. That 33% chance to glance a Flare Shield Spartan becomes 55%. Tac Support Squads with meltas, 5 of them bring 3-4 hits, causing 2-3 hull points in damage. 

 

Combine those with Dynat. I have Melta squads bringing down 3-4 hits, including penetrating hits with a 50% chance of blowing it up. The only trick is how to get those 12" weapons there. How to do it? Orbital Assault Rite of War gets me there.

 

This is what I mean when specific builds can alter a standing on the tier table, but for standard level of being able to compete, as Bulbafist said, from the base outside, unless you stick to rigid builds (this one I suggested doesn't really excel until 3K plus either). It's how I play, and I've won 14 out of 20 games with my Alpha Legion as of last night in that manner. I know, listing numbers like that mean nothing, but I play against mostly decent players.

 

In regards to Terminators; eh, unless they're something very special, like Red Butchers or Tyrant Siege Terminators, I'm not a fan. Justaerin, overcosted, Phoenix Terminators overcosted, Deathshroud; weaponry sucks, Grave Wardens good vs Nids and Orks, Lernaean; don't actually have clue what they're doing with long ranged special weapons, but otherwise being WS5 assault terminators; but only I1, etc etc. Normal Terminators are okay at taking down other terminators, but that just makes it a bit of a merry go round I prefer to avoid; use Plasma Seekers or Bikers or similar and teach people that Terminators need to be kept small cheap, effective objective holders or special weapon delivery systems. Making them infiltrate doesn't really make them any better; Deep Strike, meanwhile, does.

 

Alpha Legion do have some weakening factors; as Bulbafist said, losing 1VP for arbitrary reasons on a list that is favoured by MSU.

 

As for Corax, I don't consider him "meh" at all. In fact, Alpharius is even more "meh" with the exception of Preferred Enemy. Sure, Corax is the only primarch without the ability to ID T4, but then again, I'd run him with a JP Forge Lord with Power Axe and Rad Grenade or maybe even a Thunder Hammer if necessary. Meanwhile, he has an army which has accurate outflanking (which the majority of them can do because Infiltrate), the ability to form an all flyer army (The Shadowed Lord), the ability to break the strength of Deep Strikers thanks to forcing a mishap while his Jump Pack causes D3 S5 AP3 Hammer of Wrath attacks, and can combine his Blinding hits with Shadowwalk for only being hit on 6's. Throw on a Vector Strike, and he can damage on the move. Throw on a pair of Archaeotech pistols and it's some more dead models. 

 

Alpharius... walks forward, buffing his army and messing with enemy reserves. His army is already powerful without the need for rerolls (but they are welcome to make up for the point sink), and an enemy learning that Alpharius is in the force is unlikely to deploy any models by choice by reserve. Use him to kill things like Praevians/Castellax etc, but if they're not present, well.

[Theredknight]

Sorry to pee on your bonfire hesh, but the+to sweeping advance can only be used if you win combat.

I emailed fw about it (hoping for a plus) and they told me if I lose combat, it doesn't apply sadly.

 

Agree eidolon is a good char, but needs defending.

Yes EC challenging sucks, all to lose, and nothing to gain. Really they should look at the challenges within 30k and put s bonus for the victor on there.

Palatines but of glass hammer, but can be good if used correctly, certainly not a 'delete unit' guys, red butchers however..

 

Fulgrim is ok, and will stalemate any other primarch, due to his decent inv save.

Is weak against those who can concuss him.

 

Phoenix guard.. Best way to describe. It's like a lovely wrapped present, then opening it to discover a turd at the bottom. Awful over costed unit.. (Not as much as soh though)

 

I haven't tried rylanor yet, but may do, and try to hide him out the way until needed (for his plus to resolution)

[Hesh Kadesh]

The Crusader rule makes no mention of that. QED, until it's FAQ'd/Errata'd included within the rules, I'll actually stick with what the RAW states.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Also since you seem to value maneuverability and speed hesh; corax gives everyone auto 6s for fleet which really helps in the later phases of the game when it comes to taking objectives 

[Theredknight]

http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g449/ben_fabz/96DEF410-E538-4CFB-838F-E1139DF1A3F3.png

 

Sorry it's on my phone, you catch the end of the message, it is about the crusader rule.

Believe me I wish it was that way, but others I have spoken to simply won't accept it!!

[SkimaskMohawk]

I think he means as the crusader rule is written by GW and makes no mention of a condition to getting the bonus, then the FW "clarification" is irrelevant 

[Theredknight]

Cut it how you will.. But it's a sweeping advance, one would assume a certain amount of sweeping being done.

I can see how it can be read, but most people will shoot it down.

So, it's still a sub-par rule being as it takes 7 'possible' stages to get it..

[Hesh Kadesh]

Just because FW FAQ day release monkeys don't actually learn the rules of the game doesn't mean other people don't. they have been proven wrong numerous times and contradict each other depending on who you get to talk to. Look at all the Primarchs who can't take Legion Terminator Squad Bodyguarda like Horus or Ferrus.

 

Lets not get into how badly written the 30k core rules are, or Immortals 'Gun them Down' etc.

 

An intern on minimum wage taking days to answer rules queries which they don't even know the answer to don't actually fill me with hope. The fact it has so far not been included in official publications or rules release shows how official that ruling is. Feel free meanwhile to limit the effectiveness of EC. Because don't you know their ability was obly effective on the assault.

 

Please. just stop, because my opinion of GWs rules monkeys are even lower than WotC, and their rules were more complicated and wordy than GW's Have ever been.

[The Nookie]

Just because FW FAQ day release monkeys don't actually learn the rules of the game doesn't mean other people don't. they have been proven wrong numerous times and contradict each other depending on who you get to talk to. Look at all the Primarchs who can't take Legion Terminator Squad Bodyguarda like Horus or Ferrus.

 

Lets not get into how badly written the 30k core rules are, or Immortals 'Gun them Down' etc.

 

An intern on minimum wage taking days to answer rules queries which they don't even know the answer to don't actually fill me with hope. The fact it has so far not been included in official publications or rules release shows how official that ruling is. Feel free meanwhile to limit the effectiveness of EC. Because don't you know their ability was obly effective on the assault.

 

Please. just stop, because my opinion of GWs rules monkeys are even lower than WotC, and their rules were more complicated and wordy than GW's Have ever been.

 

 

I mean these rules aren't exactly a tournament focus, all of GW makes the same mistake everywhere, its always a case of question and answer, and a lot of the time up to some local interpretation. Technically though that intern has more of a say on what the rules mean than you...

[Sevatar]

I guess Corax does work well as a force multiplier.

 

My trouble with the RG RoW is that Droo Pods seem to make much of the Infiltration for ordinary Tac squads redundant. Or would you rather Pod in Melta Support squads and just Infiltrate Tac squads?

[Brofist]

How is Tank Hunters letting you re-roll haywire results?

[SkimaskMohawk]

You don't need to take decapitation strike with RG, it's simply an option. If you run blob marines then infiltrate works really well to set up your 18" augury scanner bubble; the great thing about decapitation strike is you're not forced to pod, it's just an option

[Hesh Kadesh]

 

 

Just because FW FAQ day release monkeys don't actually learn the rules of the game doesn't mean other people don't. they have been proven wrong numerous times and contradict each other depending on who you get to talk to. Look at all the Primarchs who can't take Legion Terminator Squad Bodyguarda like Horus or Ferrus.

 

Lets not get into how badly written the 30k core rules are, or Immortals 'Gun them Down' etc.

 

An intern on minimum wage taking days to answer rules queries which they don't even know the answer to don't actually fill me with hope. The fact it has so far not been included in official publications or rules release shows how official that ruling is. Feel free meanwhile to limit the effectiveness of EC. Because don't you know their ability was obly effective on the assault.

 

Please. just stop, because my opinion of GWs rules monkeys are even lower than WotC, and their rules were more complicated and wordy than GW's Have ever been.

 

 

I mean these rules aren't exactly a tournament focus, all of GW makes the same mistake everywhere, its always a case of question and answer, and a lot of the time up to some local interpretation. Technically though that intern has more of a say on what the rules mean than you...

 

He does? Why is it not in an officially sanctioned ruleset then?

[The Nookie]

 

 

 

Just because FW FAQ day release monkeys don't actually learn the rules of the game doesn't mean other people don't. they have been proven wrong numerous times and contradict each other depending on who you get to talk to. Look at all the Primarchs who can't take Legion Terminator Squad Bodyguarda like Horus or Ferrus.

 

Lets not get into how badly written the 30k core rules are, or Immortals 'Gun them Down' etc.

 

An intern on minimum wage taking days to answer rules queries which they don't even know the answer to don't actually fill me with hope. The fact it has so far not been included in official publications or rules release shows how official that ruling is. Feel free meanwhile to limit the effectiveness of EC. Because don't you know their ability was obly effective on the assault.

 

Please. just stop, because my opinion of GWs rules monkeys are even lower than WotC, and their rules were more complicated and wordy than GW's Have ever been.

 

 

I mean these rules aren't exactly a tournament focus, all of GW makes the same mistake everywhere, its always a case of question and answer, and a lot of the time up to some local interpretation. Technically though that intern has more of a say on what the rules mean than you...

 

He does? Why is it not in an officially sanctioned ruleset then?

 

 

I mean he is the one who talks to the main writers of the books. Those writers of the book, to which we are debating rules on, will know what they meant for the rules to mean.

[defl0]

I guess Corax does work well as a force multiplier.

 

My trouble with the RG RoW is that Droo Pods seem to make much of the Infiltration for ordinary Tac squads redundant. Or would you rather Pod in Melta Support squads and just Infiltrate Tac squads?

 

I think ur missing the point. decapitating strike + maun gives you roughly and 83% chance to go first. You if you take units that do huge upfront damage and get first turn, you are basically playing the game with more points than your opponent. 

 

Now add in that you don't have to pay for transports to get your guys in position and for 5 points you can make your cover 1 pip better, you start getting huge point efficiency that other legions can't match. 

 

Not to mention mor deythan and dark fury units are very cheap for what they do and you get to deploy after you opponent. 

 

It's a lot of pluses. And that's only one way to play them. You can play an amazing outflank skirmish army, or go air cav or do structured reserve point refusal. 

 

On a final note, drop pods have a different use than infiltrate. Infiltrate is great if you get first turn, but drop pods are great even if you get second turn because they are more reactionary. Also with multiple pods you can change the timing of your list by choosing what units are delayed and what units are 1st turn alpha strike.

 

So alpha legion and raven guard are both really good, but Raven Guard have a lot of game time generalship. Alpha legion are little more all or nothing. 

[defl0]

Oh and as for corax. Think of him as a unit not a character. He's like a power weapon equipped assault squad with melta bombs with hit and run that is not over priced. 

[Hesh Kadesh]

 

 

 

 

Just because FW FAQ day release monkeys don't actually learn the rules of the game doesn't mean other people don't. they have been proven wrong numerous times and contradict each other depending on who you get to talk to. Look at all the Primarchs who can't take Legion Terminator Squad Bodyguarda like Horus or Ferrus.

 

Lets not get into how badly written the 30k core rules are, or Immortals 'Gun them Down' etc.

 

An intern on minimum wage taking days to answer rules queries which they don't even know the answer to don't actually fill me with hope. The fact it has so far not been included in official publications or rules release shows how official that ruling is. Feel free meanwhile to limit the effectiveness of EC. Because don't you know their ability was obly effective on the assault.

 

Please. just stop, because my opinion of GWs rules monkeys are even lower than WotC, and their rules were more complicated and wordy than GW's Have ever been.

 

 

I mean these rules aren't exactly a tournament focus, all of GW makes the same mistake everywhere, its always a case of question and answer, and a lot of the time up to some local interpretation. Technically though that intern has more of a say on what the rules mean than you...

 

He does? Why is it not in an officially sanctioned ruleset then?

 

 

I mean he is the one who talks to the main writers of the books. Those writers of the book, to which we are debating rules on, will know what they meant for the rules to mean.

 

Hahahahahahahahah.

 

Seriously. 

[Krikey]

I mean he is the one who talks to the main writers of the books. Those writers of the book, to which we are debating rules on, will know what they meant for the rules to mean.

If you send a question one day, you may very well get a different answer than if you send ate same question another day. FW rules query responses have been inconsistent and unreliable. An example of this would be the "combi-bolter is the same as combi-weapon" ruling. It seems they've realized the extent of the problem; thus, the change to their responses recently to the "wait until the FAQ" form letter.

 

~K

[defl0]

Lol. It's even worse. Forgeworld emails can even be reverse obvious RAW. Take Raven Guard. Jump Infantry for 5th, 6th and 7th explicitly said that jump infantry follow all rules for infantry and jump infantry and that there is not a no jump infantry category, but that they are all just infantry. Then Raven guard have rule for infantry and jump infantry but all of a sudden jump infantry don't follow the rules for infantry even though the rule book have said they do for multiple editions... 

 

So it's not even an argument that Raven Guard jump infantry can infiltrate, but someone sent an email... and now they cant.

 

It's frankly embarrassing. If I didn't love the fluff I would rage quit. 

 

But it's just the way this game is... Sloppy. Poorly thought out. But equally fun and addicting. Thems the breaks. 

[defl0]

Dammit Forgeworld! Take my money! all of it!

 

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/The_Horus_Heresy/Legiones_Astartes/RAVEN_GUARD

 

Just in case you hadn't seen... 7 new kits for Raven Guard. Mostly shoulder pads and helmets. 

[helterskelter]

Night Lords. Combine with Terror Assault. 5+ cover save first turn, talent for murder +1 to wound when outnumbering opponent (night raptors and terminators have this real easy), then 2/4/6 roll for turn 1/2/3 night fight. If you can capitalise on this, I say most likely you willhave 2 turns, you have some battle plan wrecking potential. Something tasty to pop transports early on, terror squad volkite, fun times ahead!

[Flint13]

I'm all about traitor World Eaters recently, especially since I've always had a thing for large infantry waves.

 

It may not be the flat out most powerful. But Rage, Furious Charge *and* Hatred outside their own deployment zone (which, come on, if you *aren't* outside your deployment zone, something's going terribly wrong) is pretty hardass. Especially for the small price of always having to consolidate towards enemies and not having librarians.

 

The first time your paragon praetor hacks something big down with 8 Str6 attacks it *feels* like the best Legion special rules ^_^

 

Also, Khârn!

[The Nookie]

I'm all about traitor World Eaters recently, especially since I've always had a thing for large infantry waves.

It may not be the flat out most powerful. But Rage, Furious Charge *and* Hatred outside their own deployment zone (which, come on, if you *aren't* outside your deployment zone, something's going terribly wrong) is pretty hardass. Especially for the small price of always having to consolidate towards enemies and not having librarians.

The first time your paragon praetor hacks something big down with 8 Str6 attacks it *feels* like the best Legion special rules

Also, Khârn!

AMEN to that! I love traitor World Eaters, and seriously, I understand the idea of rage, hatred, furious charge...and feel no pain with an apoth oh yeah!