ThatOneMarshal Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 How would you guys rank the iron warriors? I like the idea of their ww1 trench warfare army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgoff Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 How would you guys rank the iron warriors? I like the idea of their ww1 trench warfare army. They're ok. There are a couple of armies like Raven Guard with better special rules but there are some with a lot worse as well. They work for me quiete well and feel like a real Iron Warriors army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dansupvi Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 can somebody explain how the sons of horus are a top tier army to me? is it simply reliable reserves? i found the reasoning behind if etc not being as good reasonably compelling and would definitely like to hear a 'for' point about soh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norngahl Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 They are pretty good in getting there reserves in and to engage the enemy quick and reliable. Take Pride of the Legion for 2 outflanking vetetans in rhinos, a cc contemptor in dreadclaw, 3 flyers, 2 sicarans and fill up the rest of the points with quad mortars or more tanks/dreads.. first round pop all serious anti air like deredeos and the transports, get the contemptor in, second round 3 flyers come in and 2 veterans plus a charging cc contemptor.. Deredeos are good at killing flyers, and flyers are glascannons. To behead the enemy with your flyers, you have to take out the anti air options first.. and these are armored targets with skyfire interceptor, so bring anti tank to the field. Its all about synergy. Tanks, deredeo, quad mortars and flyers do the real damage in 30k. Max them out. And when you got 3 flyers and 2 outflanking veterans sitting in reserve, the SoH bonus really comes in handy. If you are interested in pods, outflanking veterans and flyers, take SoH, as they support these units with their reserve bonus. Plus you have a pretty mobile list. People focus too much on expensive bodys that do little and are pretty vulnerable to both, anti tank and anti air. Max out Armour. IMO. The rest if the legion bonus is okay but situational. Pairs up good with power armoured veterans who will kill some 3+ and then claim an additional attack on top. But rather use your boots to clean up the leftover fools that survived your gunfire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dansupvi Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 thats for the help :) that sounds pretty slick to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Nookie Posted May 11, 2015 Author Share Posted May 11, 2015 Pretty sure that the Sons of Horus are one of the worst legion chapter tactics...at least thats the consensus i've been reading around Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyCrow Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Pretty sure that the Sons of Horus are one of the worst legion chapter tactics...at least thats the consensus i've been reading around Both their ROW and their Legion Tactics aren't spectacular, but they're meant to incite to gang up on weakened units. Their ROW really shines with Reaver sqauds that Outflank though, because since they can't assault from reserves, might as well run them up. It's the consensus because it highly favours assault units, and assaulting isn't very popular when you can have large amount of ranged destruction I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norngahl Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 The Legions are not only about different colours, but also about legion preferences and so they favour and support a special playstyle! Army 1 might be pretty good for Iron Hands, but rather mediocore for Emperors Children! All Legions use the same base. They start in the middle and if you choose a legion for their playstyle and play on their conditions, they will beat the other Legions at this special playstyle. SoH are great for tactical players who develop battle plans over several turns, using the synergy of the whole army to win. Therefore they get in their reserves early to make sure the battle plan works and get extra attacks when they outnumber enemies in later game turns, when the foe has been gunned down. SoH on the board preffer quick and decaptivating strikes which perfectly fits the fluff! An Iron Hands army is slow but more durable. The basic marine gets toughness 4.5, bikes and such t5.5, so focussing on boots and use tanks as support perfectly fits their fluff AND so favours a balanced playstyle with say 2x20 tacticals with apothecary! Good look trying to kill them at range.. Taking the "best" units and spamming them on any legion and then trying to compare them amongst themself just aint going to work. But thats what people seem to do when they compare them to each other. Look at the primarches.. the boni they offer indicate best of how to see and play the army, and what list to take to get the best out of each legion! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Nookie Posted May 11, 2015 Author Share Posted May 11, 2015 Well of course, I mean I play World Eaters, and tailor my lists to their story style, and towards their chapter's strengths, however, there is definitely different levels of genuine "power" behind certain legions tactics that can make some "better" than others. The point i'm making is that I play with the world eaters who are considered bottom tier compared to others, and playing with their style so far against a few lists of iron hands, and imperial fists (considered top tier) I can definitely see their strengths when players play to them. For example, I am not going to take world eaters tactics and then create a shooty army...its just not gonna happen....but lets say I did and I compare them playing in a shooty style to a list of iron hands...I will lose out to them...their tactics for that style seem...at least to me, to be better for that position. So, that is where I can see the arguments for tiers and "better" army tactics comes with the idea that having an entire army with the ability to infiltrate and sabotage enemy units (Alpha Legion) is more impressive than an emperor's children army in combat...of course others might disagree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theredknight Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 I completely agree! With we you know what your going to get..savage hand to hand and the ability to deal serious damage. Red butchers are pretty sick for their points cost, and one is probably better than 2 phoenix guard. Ec is all over the place, the rules don't quite make sense. The confusing sweep rule leads them to be melee based, but..they aren't really. I tried it, they suffer. palatines are ok, and eidolon is good when you get him in the right place. But there's no real 'combat buff' like we. Flanking is meh as you cant pick the side. You flank some dreads at 3k (expensive gamble) and they end up 2 turns from anyone, it's frustrating. A bit of love from fw and some tweaks (probably nipples) and it could probably run well. But until then, il just keep on trolling with the fellblade! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 The fact is shooting is currently better than assault. Intercepter, overwatch, the changes to assaulting from reserve or after scouting/infiltrating, and random charge distance all create a meta that favors shooting. Certainly the "best" unit can't be compared amongst all legions, but if you break it down into a few categories then you can find which units work better in which Legions. The sample list/playstyle posted last page for SoH is an alpha strike shooting army that relies on tanks, which other legions factually do better. Alpha Legion or Raven Guard are better at alpha strike (alpha's especially at anti tank) while Iron Hands and Imperial Fists excel at shooting (Iron Hands especially for armoured warfare). To have one post that shows the best potential game terms for them and then to post about how to build armies to fit their fluff is a bit of a contradiction as the SoH sample from last page was really just "take vehicles" with a minimum troop tax; there wasn't reavers, or combat squads to take advantage of their legion trait. Another legion could have made that very same list fluffier and stronger; Dynat is known for aggressive armoured encirclement, Iron Hands are known for their reliance on mechines over flesh, etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dansupvi Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 To have one post that shows the best potential game terms for them and then to post about how to build armies to fit their fluff is a bit of a contradiction as the SoH sample from last page was really just "take vehicles" with a minimum troop tax; there wasn't reavers, or combat squads to take advantage of their legion trait. Another legion could have made that very same list fluffier and stronger; Dynat is known for aggressive armoured encirclement, Iron Hands are known for their reliance on mechines over flesh, etc... that is an excellent point im aware of the strengths of the sons of horus; the posts by hesh kadesh on the first page surprised me a lot as ive never really seen anybody say that the sons are a 'top tier legion' in comparison to the more mainstream 'powerful' ones and i would certainly like to hear his reasoning i guess i should build my army to not be fully reliant on assault (even with the soh legion rules) in order to get the most of it, and try to utilise reserves more! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norngahl Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Ooh cool, we finally got a discussion :D You could take Maloghurst and Reavers as troops as well to be the total fluffbunny, but I usually try to avoid named characters when possible, and a Praetor with veterans as troops is roughly the same in terms of their abilities and profiles. Using rather armoured units than bodys is my personal preference, but you could as well thin out the vehicles and throw in some more outflanking or podding reavers. Nonetheless wether you prefer pods, outflanking units or flyers- SoH boost reserve based lists. I don't understand the bonus attack SoH can get to take 20 men blobs. I rather think they intended the rule to use it for quickly mobbing up the rests of enemy units (compare to their row where you get boni for charging existing combats). A quick breakthrough. I think thats the Idea behind this rule. But I won't base an army on that. The only unit I'd never take ruleswise are Justaerin. By far the worst and overpriced terminators in 30k so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dansupvi Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 The only unit I'd never take ruleswise are Justaerin. By far the worst and overpriced terminators in 30k so far. do you think they could be useful deep striking with meltas in 'the black reaving', or a bare bones 5 man squad in a LR/dreadclaw? they hit like a brick on the charge but seem disappointing in all other regards to me :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norngahl Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Unfortunately the only setup I see for them is 5 in a dreadclaw and combi bolters (rather plasma heavy, leave the tanks to the rest of the army and let them do what they do best, and that is CC). The dreadclaw gets this slow unit into position on turn 1, provides some protection and lets them charge out of it. Soften up the target with plasma and wipe them in cc. If you don't wipe them, don't worry, they will hold pretty well with stubborn. Obviously they are designed to match enemy elite units. As long as 1 stubborn warrior survives, they will hold them up. Might buy the rest of your army some good but hella expensive time. We are speaking about 400 points to make 5 men with 1 wound work.. thats a pretty bad deal.. Would rather play them as regular terminators.. but even in 30k terminators rather suck :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatOneMarshal Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 I feel that when it comes SOH if they made justarien better. They have so many special rules that tie into justarien that they would be excellent if they were actually worth the points or made cheaper. Maybe give them the same special rule as abandons terminator armor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norngahl Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Second wound would be enough.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyCrow Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 They do seem a bit expensive, but aren't they best used as a battering ram directly in the center of the enemy's force ? With Stubborn and a character, they're a meatgrinder even if they lose combat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Nookie Posted May 12, 2015 Author Share Posted May 12, 2015 They really are just terrible, I just looked over their traits, and for their points they have nothing to make them really useful or good at all lol for nearly the same amount of points red butchers are way better...and have two wounds...and feel no pain...oh and 5 models...lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theredknight Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Soh and EC Termies are some of the worst cost:unit usefulness ratios. For those that are supposed to be 'the elites of ec' you'd think they'd have ws5 at a minimum..Nope! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyCrow Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Soh and EC Termies are some of the worst cost:unit usefulness ratios. For those that are supposed to be 'the elites of ec' you'd think they'd have ws5 at a minimum..Nope! Justaerin do have WS5 though, unless it's been FAQd. They're like a Terminator Command Squad that can score, are stubborn and have furious charge. So I guess they work really well as a battering ram, then stick there until reinforcements arrive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 In regards to Justaerin, I'm pretty confident that they forgot that minimum squad is set at 3, and priced it at 5. Consider the value of the full squad. They become much more powerful; Stubborn Ld9 WS5 Axe Cataphractii units are.good. They're still powerful, and much more playable, not auto take, mind, but actually playable. Reavers are another matter entirely though. Absolutely brutal assault units. The Rite of War is... Meh, the additional minimum troops and master of signal (ironically rendering your most powerful legion tactic null). That leaves you with taking Maloghurst. Not only does he.provide with a decent combat character (not a complete face eater, but decent troop murderer with the additional WS5 PW attack on top of his other 4). He has a Fearless aura which is AWESOME. Rubber banding it on some Terminators in mid field is awesome. He can also take a command squad for a second Fearless bubble. Orbital Strike is a brilliabt Rite, but limited by what support you can bring, limiting you to dreads or flyers with the DS rule, which don't benefit from the legiones astartes tactics so they must come down first or risk 4th turn dropping. SoH get the strength of Orbital Assault (deep strike deployment at the preferred angle) without the army list restrictions opening up the meta busting units like Typhons, Venators and Grav Rapiers. i wouldn't bother with a rite of war personally despite maloghurst allowing it. If there was one i *had* to take it would be angels wrath because hit and run reavers are vile, especially backed by destroyers with hit and run. The strengths.of high powered.shooting are lost if you're in CombaT. If you're in CC turn 2, then winning the shooting war is pointless. Tying up 300 points in heavy shooting only to have them caught In cc turn 2 is bad. Interceptor is beaten by terrain, and Interceptor S7+ is currently rare due to the majority of armies unable to field av11-12 in significant numbers with much effectiveness (and the.need.to counter such AV's reduced because they have low damage limiting them to early/late game Speed bursts) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fangbanger Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 · Hidden by Flint13, May 13, 2015 - Reply to removed content Hidden by Flint13, May 13, 2015 - Reply to removed content It's just a game.... Link to comment
dansupvi Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 thanks for what help you did bring tournaments here are 2000-2500 so typhons etc are a regularity so i will need to factor that into account Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norngahl Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 @Hesh Kadesh Wait wait wait.. you did say something that didn't even come to my mind.. Legiones astartes special rule.. the reserverolls of flyers or tanks aren't improved?! Just boots get the boost?! Hell that turns, if this is really as it is intended from FW, EVERYTHING I thought of the sons of horus upside down! Please tell me I am wrong!! O.O Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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