How the flying hell are we gonna handle Wratihknights now?!

[Moonstalker]

Blind does indeed affect the WraithKnight, but unfortunately it only has to pass that single initiative test (with ini 5 no less) while the dark fire lances are only str7 are they not?

 

I think a Wraithknight would be one of the few things I wouldn't want to hit with Castellax. His str d and stomps would just boot them over, wouldn't they?

 

I agree, Castellax aren't the solution.  Darkfire Lance isn't the right tool for the job, and the Castellax's S6 would put them at a further disadvantage if they got dragged into melee with it.

 

Edit: depthcharge, the -1 is only for the d-scythe.

[Flint13]

 

Blind does indeed affect the WraithKnight, but unfortunately it only has to pass that single initiative test (with ini 5 no less) while the dark fire lances are only str7 are they not?

I think a Wraithknight would be one of the few things I wouldn't want to hit with Castellax. His str d and stomps would just boot them over, wouldn't they?

While you would need a 5 to wound with darkfire lances, I still wouldn't rule them out. S D is only if he does the sword and shield combo, which means he's moving closer to stuff that can kill it in cc, mainly terminators with fists. The stomps I wouldn't worry about since he'll likely be rolling the S6 AP4 hits, which you can pass pretty easily. Castellax also have invulnerable saves, which you can now take against all but 6's but it sounds like the distortion weapons suffer a -1 to the D chart anyway. Toss on a powerfist and a refractor field on the praevian to help the Castellax out too.

Unfortunately, concussive doesn't work against Garges but if you play DG, you can cheese it up by sticking a barbarian thuribule and rad grenades on the praevian.

NL players will get their +1 to wound in cc with talent for murder (though I have no clue how many models a Garge counts as).

AL I think can take Monster hunter on their units.

EC can take sonic shriekers making the Castellax I5 on the charge.

That's what I've come up with so far.

Enemy models only count as one regardless for TfM, so we're good to go there with two or more NL.

 

You know, that's a really good point with the Death Guard! A T6 Wraith Knight is far less scary. The Thuribule is within 6" correct? That might work pretty well since then at T7 you can wound it with bolters *and* on 3s with plasma. Even better to wound it on 2s with powerfists :D

[hivey]

AL cant get monster hunter

[Slips]

Blind does indeed affect the WraithKnight, but unfortunately it only has to pass that single initiative test (with ini 5 no less) while the dark fire lances are only str7 are they not?

I think a Wraithknight would be one of the few things I wouldn't want to hit with Castellax. His str d and stomps would just boot them over, wouldn't they?

While you would need a 5 to wound with darkfire lances, I still wouldn't rule them out. S D is only if he does the sword and shield combo, which means he's moving closer to stuff that can kill it in cc, mainly terminators with fists. The stomps I wouldn't worry about since he'll likely be rolling the S6 AP4 hits, which you can pass pretty easily. Castellax also have invulnerable saves, which you can now take against all but 6's but it sounds like the distortion weapons suffer a -1 to the D chart anyway. Toss on a powerfist and a refractor field on the praevian to help the Castellax out too.

Unfortunately, concussive doesn't work against Garges but if you play DG, you can cheese it up by sticking a barbarian thuribule and rad grenades on the praevian.

NL players will get their +1 to wound in cc with talent for murder (though I have no clue how many models a Garge counts as).

AL I think can take Monster hunter on their units.

EC can take sonic shriekers making the Castellax I5 on the charge.

That's what I've come up with so far.

Enemy models only count as one regardless for TfM, so we're good to go there with two or more NL.

You know, that's a really good point with the Death Guard! A T6 Wraith Knight is far less scary. The Thuribule is within 6" correct? That might work pretty well since then at T7 you can wound it with bolters *and* on 3s with plasma. Even better to wound it on 2s with powerfists

WANT MORE SHENANIGANS!? While its T7 due to being close to the Thurible (but not in combat with it yet) Shoot it with as many Rad Missiles as possible. If it fails ONE Ap3 Fleshbane save (a 5++ with 5+++ @_@) it Permanently loses 1T for the rest of the game.

BAM

T6.

Charge into it with Rad 'Nades.

BOOM

T5.

Looks like DG might be the best bet for utterly wrecking one. It would be hard to setup such a scenario and difficult to execute, but, when it does...

Ho boy!

[Brofist]

A destroyer squad, if it could get preferred enemy and BS5, stands a very good chance of putting 1.2 wounds on a WK every turn. In 3 turns it could be T5 and melt to conventional weapons. That's pretty cool.

 

Sadly it costs about 300 points and leaves the WK unopposed for a few turns. If its the melee version with the 5++ and FNP you'll only put .6 wounds on it every turn. I still think missile spam is a better all around option, for the points anyway, but they'll struggle against the melee version with the 5++ and FNP.

[Slips]

A destroyer squad, if it could get preferred enemy and BS5, stands a very good chance of putting 1.2 wounds on a WK every turn. In 3 turns it could be T5 and melt to conventional weapons. That's pretty cool.

 

Sadly it costs about 300 points and leaves the WK unopposed for a few turns. If its the melee version with the 5++ and FNP you'll only put .6 wounds on it every turn. I still think missile spam is a better all around option, for the points anyway, but they'll struggle against the melee version with the 5++ and FNP.

Don't forget, a Primaris Lightning can be loaded with up to 3 Rad Missile Launchers too.

 

Edit: I don't think the -1T from Rad Missiles Stack, though. I'd need to re-read Rad Phage (the rule that does the -1T)

[Moonstalker]

I found out two things tonight.  The first is that actual rules for Rad Phage was left out of LACAL, so I had to look it up in Betrayal.  The second is that the wording in Betrayal is a little murky.

 

 

 

A model which loses one or more wounds to an attack with this special rule and survives has its Toughness score reduced by -1 for the rest of the battle

 

Does an attack equal the shooting from one squad (regardless of how many rad phage weapons are in the squad)?  Is each rad phage weapon an attack?  The tense of the rule implies that it happens each time one or more wounds are lost to an attack (as compared to "a model which has lost one or more wounds...and survived..."), so I'm pretty sure it stacks, but does it stack from simultaneous shots?

[Slips]

...My god. If it stacks Destroyers just got that much better as MC or equivalent Hunters; as they should be.

 

If it does, I think that might explain why there so overcosted (they should still be a bit cheaper...)

 

Whether it stacks from Simultaneous Shots (2 from a 10 man Destroyer Squad, up to 3 from a Primaris; each being solo options) if we're going with this interpretation of the wording then I'd say, yeah / positive-maybe. Meaning, if you're damn lucky, you can take 2+ Toughness off a WK per shooting phase?!? 

 

Well, if GW is OK with a 295 S:D Spamming Jump Gargantuan Creature Running around, then I can see no reason why a 300+ point squad of Destroyers (which are all MEQ) might be unable to knock it down a few pegs.

[Brofist]

LACAL, in classic forgeworld style, is missing a lot of rules. Everything from Vehicle Squadrons to Rad Phage. But I'm with you, Slipstreams. Those missile launchers cost so many points for so little benefit. If the numbers stacked they'd have an actual role, and at 300 points for 2 shots it's still really niche and not easy to spam.

 

Bottom line is that it'll be an uphill fight no matter how well you tailor your list. The community at large is reeling a bit from the release. We're not the only folks with armies who are going to struggle against a unit with few exploitable weaknesses.

[Raktra]

Yes, but we're far more importanr than those other guys ;) Okay, so so far Death Guard are looking relatively healthy at handling it. Key word being relative, but still. Word Bearers will probably have a slight edge with their relic as well, but then given what you'd need after buying that to take the bastard down, points will probably go nutty again. AdMech get titans and the like. There's some options at least.

[Flint13]

Huh, yeah a Lightning-Primaris is looking like a pretty good counter in the same points range, though a bit fragile. Eldar are still pretty nasty at knocking planes out of the air, but you really just need that one salvo of rad phage missiles.

 

Best hope for a really good salvo though. As soon as the Eldar player figures out you can skank their emo Gundam, they're going to devote everything ever to knocking it down.

[Trevak Dal]

Does "Jump" actually do anything for a gargantuan creature besides give it deep strike?  I mean, it's not a Jet Pack Gargantuan creature (like a Riptide is a Jet pack Monstrous creature, able to jump shoot jump like Crisis suits and jet bikes)

[Raktra]

Leap over terrain and units I guess?

[ChainMachete]

10 Gal Vorbak with a power fist on the champion plus 2 power mauls for the squad.

 

Biggest problem is getting them in assault if you're trying to take out the shooty variety. Their Spartan is going to get blown up and if they deep strike or use a bunker with an escape hatch & void shield, the WK is just going to run away.

 

Against the sword & shield variety, just drive their Spartan straight at it. 10 S7 and 35 S5 at I5 plus 5 S10, at I1 rending blows on the charge should do the trick. You stand a good chance of loosing the Spartan plus a couple of Gal Vorbak, so it's not points even, but at least its not too far off.

[Raktra]

Doubtful, really. The twin 5++ rolls plus Stomp will probably flip it back in the knight's favour. Someone would have to do the maths, like.

[hivey]

i sent an email about knights as legion lords of war. this is what i got back

Hi ********.

Our rules team are currently working on an errata document that will cover the use of Knights as Lords of War for Legion armies in the same way that they can be taken for Solar Auxilia armies. In the meantime there are a couple of ways you can use them. You can take an unbound army where you're free to use Knights in your Legion force or you can just check with your gaming group to see if they are happy for you to use them.

 

[Moonstalker]

That'll be nice if it pans out.  Assuming we can bring a single Knight as a LoW (and potentially, give it a Questoris rank?), which do you guys think is the best to bring?  Styrix offers a Volkite chieorovile, which might be the best Knight weapon for trying to take a WK down at range.  Cerastus Knight-Lancer might have the best chance of beating one in melee.  Knight-Castigator possibly offers a compromise between both, along with a lower price?

[Flint13]

The lancer would most likely be over-kill for the Wraithknight, but if you want to be *hella* sure ^_^

 

The Castigator is just an all around awesome knight. It does its best work against horde armies, but I can see it having several firm uses against the Eldar scourge. Also good for knocking down those light skimmers and flyers the space elves are so fond of.

[Raktra]

 

i sent an email about knights as legion lords of war. this is what i got back

Hi ********.

Our rules team are currently working on an errata document that will cover the use of Knights as Lords of War for Legion armies in the same way that they can be taken for Solar Auxilia armies. In the meantime there are a couple of ways you can use them. You can take an unbound army where you're free to use Knights in your Legion force or you can just check with your gaming group to see if they are happy for you to use them.

 

 

Ha, I just saw this on C&H, I was about to copypaste it here. Good lad!

[depthcharge12]

I really wouldn't be worried about this unit anyway unless you play in a meta that allows a 30k/40k mash up.

 

I think that AdMech also has the best chance of beating one of these beasties. One or two Venator tractors could take the wraithknight down without much thought and AdMech can take a LoW knight regardless of any restrictions.

 

The tricky part is balancing he points trade off to kill this thing. It is definitely weighted in the favor of the eldar, but the rest of their units die quite easily to a 30k list. Sicarans could obliterate bike or serpent spam, fury of the legions makes any assaulting eldar lists laughable, and volkites can likely wipe a unit of the board a turn. But, unless you have an ideally suited unit/units to deal with the wraithknight, you might be more likely to lose. Also, sub 2000 point games will leave you at a disadvantage with your tacticals tax.

[Flint13]

^^ Yeah, best not to think of this thing in a vacuum. Sure a Knight-Lancer may cost more points than it does, but unless you manage it poorly, the Lancer will still be useful after you off the Wraith Knight.

 

I do think other than the Wraith Knight though, the legion lists (even the vanilla-generic kind) match up pretty darn well to Eldar.  The squishy elves to not enjoy the huge number of bolter shots that a legion can lay down at even small points levels.

[Sanct]

Combi-plasma seekers? Almost an alpha counter to any toughness unit it seems.  You've just just got to get them in range.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Talent for Murder doesn't apply to Gargantuan Creatures UNLESS the enemy has infantry engaged in that fight, which you also outnumber.

[Flint13]

Talent for Murder doesn't apply to Gargantuan Creatures UNLESS the enemy has infantry engaged in that fight, which you also outnumber.

^^ How did you come to that conclusion, Hesh?

[Moonstalker]

 

Talent for Murder doesn't apply to Gargantuan Creatures UNLESS the enemy has infantry engaged in that fight, which you also outnumber.

^^ How did you come to that conclusion, Hesh?

 

 

"If a unit of models with the Legiones Astartes (Night Lords) special rule outnumber one or more enemy infantry units during any Initiative step in which they fight in an assault..."

 

Hesh is right, without enemy infantry in the assault, Talent for Murder will not apply.  If they do, then the +1 to Wound applies regardless of whether they're attacking enemy infantry, MCs, or GCs.