How the flying hell are we gonna handle Wratihknights now?!

[Flint13]

^^ So it is. 

 

That is hilarious in so many ways. 

[depthcharge12]

You could do a multi charge :P lol I'm grasping for straws with that, but hey, it'd be funny.

[Brofist]

I play almost exclusively 30k in 40k, so it touches me a lot. My good friend is an Eldar player too. We go way back, so I can just ask him to not bring one or use S10 AP1 for the weapons, but he's probably going to leave the WK at home most days as it'll upset too many other people in the group.

 

I really wouldn't be worried about this unit anyway unless you play in a meta that allows a 30k/40k mash up.

 

I think that AdMech also has the best chance of beating one of these beasties. One or two Venator tractors could take the wraithknight down without much thought and AdMech can take a LoW knight regardless of any restrictions.

 

The tricky part is balancing he points trade off to kill this thing. It is definitely weighted in the favor of the eldar, but the rest of their units die quite easily to a 30k list. Sicarans could obliterate bike or serpent spam, fury of the legions makes any assaulting eldar lists laughable, and volkites can likely wipe a unit of the board a turn. But, unless you have an ideally suited unit/units to deal with the wraithknight, you might be more likely to lose. Also, sub 2000 point games will leave you at a disadvantage with your tacticals tax.

The issue, really, is that with T8, and either a 5++ or 3++, its hard to pass wounds onto it. Plasma Guns and Angry Tractors need too many shots for it work at a reasonable cost. The tractors are also very vulnerable to getting knocked out. AV15 doesn’t matter against D weapons, sadly, so you’ll probably loose 1 or 2 a turn.

[depthcharge12]

The Venator tractors have 4 shot S9 AP2. Is that enough? :P get two of em and you should be able to nail a WK within two turns.

 

If their shooting at your tractors then you might have the ubiquitous rad engine Myrmidon squad able to take it down or at least drop its toughness quite a bit.

[Brofist]

It still comes out to 20 shots if the WK only has FNP. It's about 40 if it has a 5++ ontop of the FNP

So if you bring 3 and loose 1.5 a turn, you can take a ranged WK down in about 2 turns. That's pretty comparable to the missile launchers at least. As for the melee version, well, you'll need a lot more tractors.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but rampagers with barb hook lashes? While still going over the cost of the WK, they can mow it down in combat, especially if you take blood madness and their ROW

[spu00sed]

How well will the kakophoni work against one?

 

 

They seem to be a pure RGN approach to the problem, but if they work the bio-psychic feedback should help knock a few wounds off, plus they are also useful for melting other eldar units.

[ThatOneMarshal]

So after my initial rage for the codex calmed down I looked at ways to deal with this. The first thing I noticed is the odds of someone spamming wraith knights at my club is pretty low. Also I doubt I'll run into 160 shot eldar.

 

So primaris looks good because he can't kill it with the knight. Though eldar can through out some anti air. Could the vigilator or saboteur pre attack work against the knight? Also bummer talent for murder doesn't work on it. Does it work against regular MC's? Also bringing your knight could work pretty well.

[Slips]

Stacking Rad Phage on a WK to bring the toughness down sufficiently by using Destroyers and/or a Rad Primaris.

 

Then, when its T2/3 kill it with Bolt Pistols to Salt the Wound.

 

 

Beyond that, S6/7+ Weight of fire seems like the safest bet and something we can reasonably accomplish, I feel.

[Galron]

If he is dumb enough to step out of cover, try Iron Warrior Tyrants. Take 20 Krak missiles from a 2+/4++ squad. Better yet, take 40 from two squads.

 

Thankfully since I mostly play friendly games I doubt I will see too many multiple dual wraithcannon knights, but the possibility is there I guess. Are we allowed to take normal Imperial Knights or just the ones from whatever book I don't have are in.

[Flint13]

Stacking Rad Phage on a WK to bring the toughness down sufficiently by using Destroyers and/or a Rad Primaris.

 

Then, when its T2/3 kill it with Bolt Pistols to Salt the Wound.

 

 

Beyond that, S6/7+ Weight of fire seems like the safest bet and something we can reasonably accomplish, I feel.

Is the general consensus that a Lightning-Primaris with rad-missiles is the best delivery vehicle for that sweet sweet rad-phage goodness?

 

I ask as I've wanted an excuse to break out the Myrmidon Destructors with irradiation engines for awhile now ^_^

 

*Edit*

Hold up. I just realized that you aren't buying individual rad missiles for the Primaris, you're upgrading its normal missile launchers to fire rad-phage missiles. That's *way* awesomeer.

[Raktra]

I'm glad I finally have a reason to take Destroyers where people won't be annoying about it.

[Flint13]

^ What are they being annoying about?

 

If there isn't a Moritat in there, destroyers aren't even a little nasty

[Raktra]

That's the thing, just loads of "eugh, you're not being competitive!" type stuff. Pleeebs.

[depthcharge12]

That's the thing, just loads of "eugh, you're not being competitive!" type stuff. Pleeebs.

Yes, the playing for self satisfaction because no one will care that you won a tournament for little plastic men :P

 

Playing for fun and drinks is definitely more cathartic. I do think that destroyers should've made a return due to the Castellax spam that is the AdMech list and the new praevian.

[Brofist]

I'm not sold a lightning with rad missiles. Here's my reasoning. A lightning has a 50% chance to arrive 2nd turn and closer to 80% on turn 3. If you debuf the WK turn 2 and put a few wounds on it the earliest it'll die is turn 3. If your lightning doesn't make it onto the board until turn 3 then the WK will be running around doing things until about turn 4.

 

A melee WK will be in your lines by turn 3 at the latest, so you won't be able to shoot it anyway. A shooty WK will be exploding 1-2 vehicles every turn, so by turn 3 you'll have lost 3-6 3HP vehicles or 4-8 by turn 4. At that point the WK has done it's job. You're better off ignoring it outright and using those points on something else.

[ThatOneMarshal]

If you need to and with the right legion tactics that lightning can come in easily turn 2. By yourelf an aegis with comms relay and it can come in a little Easier.

[Brofist]

For sure, you can make it come in earlier with some tactics and units. But then your spending north of 300 points on something that won't even kill the darn thing. You could spend that on missile launchers or admech allies which will reliably put it down within a few turns, minimizing its damadge to your army and forcing your opponent to deal with whatever is shooting at their WK.

 

It's really tough going though against such an imbalanced unit.

[Raktra]

The manager at my GW is insisting it's weaker than before. I want his drugs and I want them now.

[Hesh Kadesh]

I'm not sold a lightning with rad missiles. Here's my reasoning. A lightning has a 50% chance to arrive 2nd turn and closer to 80% on turn 3. If you debuf the WK turn 2 and put a few wounds on it the earliest it'll die is turn 3. If your lightning doesn't make it onto the board until turn 3 then the WK will be running around doing things until about turn 4.

 

A melee WK will be in your lines by turn 3 at the latest, so you won't be able to shoot it anyway. A shooty WK will be exploding 1-2 vehicles every turn, so by turn 3 you'll have lost 3-6 3HP vehicles or 4-8 by turn 4. At that point the WK has done it's job. You're better off ignoring it outright and using those points on something else.

It has a 66% chance to arrive turn 2. And if you're making a Lightning a focus, you're taking a Master of Signal or a Comms Relay, or a Proteus, or any other sort of reserves enabler. My main issue with a Lightning with Rad missiles is that it's only AP3, and 175pts for that one shot, 215 for 2, and 255 for 3. Throw on that it's a blast weapon, and firing against an AV11 2 HP airframe, and you've got yourself a very fragile one shot weapon that despite likely causing 3 potential wounds will save all 3. Before being blown out of the sky.

 

And people really need to stop equating points values.  "But you spent X amount to kill Y amount. Blah. If it's taken the 5++, be happy. Do your happy dance. It's got maybe 2 more wounds, but it's not doing the damage it should be. Your opponent should expect it to go down, it's a Lord of War for crying out loud, and it's intention IS to go down, but to soak up firepower. A pair of Venators fire 4 shots, hit on 3's, wound on 2's, and ignore it's saves. Sure, it doesn't force it to snap shot as it's not a vehicle, but it's still causing 3 wounds a turn. 

 

Of course, they're going to be prime targets, which is why you keep them in terrain, and fit them with a Dozer so that they can move fast and ignore it all the while shooting off their 2 shot S10 Ordnance. 

 

3 Predators with Lascannons comes to 345pts and brings 6 Lascannon shots (4 hits, 3 wounds, no save), and 12 Autocannon Shots (8 hits, maybe 3 wounds, 1 wound in 2 turns of shooting = 7 wounds total.

 

3 Vendettas available as a Lord of War from IA3; 2nd Edition gives you 9 TL Lascannons = 6-7 hits, causing 4-5 wounds with no saves. Eldar don't really have that much of counter without taking the Firebase Cadre (because who wouldn't really?). My theoretical Skitarii list does for example, despite the Icarus array. 

[Flint13]

Alrighty, this weekend I think I've managed to square away a game in with a local Eldar bro who has agreed to take a Wraith Knight and all the jetbikes he can scrounge up (35 or so).

 

I'll be taking my World Eaters Berzerker Assault list with my new Typhon. 

 

Will report back with findings. 

[Raktra]

Oddly enough I find the new Jetbikes more of a worry than the Wraith, but I know they're in a comfortable place with regards to being killed to death. So many shuriken cannons.

[Flint13]

^^ I only need one shot with the Dreadhammer cannon.

 

You can fit a lot of jetbikes under a 7" template. 

[Brofist]

It has a 66% chance to arrive turn 2. And if you're making a Lightning a focus, you're taking a Master of Signal or a Comms Relay, or a Proteus, or any other sort of reserves enabler. My main issue with a Lightning with Rad missiles is that it's only AP3, and 175pts for that one shot, 215 for 2, and 255 for 3. Throw on that it's a blast weapon, and firing against an AV11 2 HP airframe, and you've got yourself a very fragile one shot weapon that despite likely causing 3 potential wounds will save all 3. Before being blown out of the sky.

 

And people really need to stop equating points values.  "But you spent X amount to kill Y amount. Blah. If it's taken the 5++, be happy. Do your happy dance. It's got maybe 2 more wounds, but it's not doing the damage it should be. Your opponent should expect it to go down, it's a Lord of War for crying out loud, and it's intention IS to go down, but to soak up firepower. A pair of Venators fire 4 shots, hit on 3's, wound on 2's, and ignore it's saves. Sure, it doesn't force it to snap shot as it's not a vehicle, but it's still causing 3 wounds a turn. 

 

Of course, they're going to be prime targets, which is why you keep them in terrain, and fit them with a Dozer so that they can move fast and ignore it all the while shooting off their 2 shot S10 Ordnance. 

 

3 Predators with Lascannons comes to 345pts and brings 6 Lascannon shots (4 hits, 3 wounds, no save), and 12 Autocannon Shots (8 hits, maybe 3 wounds, 1 wound in 2 turns of shooting = 7 wounds total.

 

3 Vendettas available as a Lord of War from IA3; 2nd Edition gives you 9 TL Lascannons = 6-7 hits, causing 4-5 wounds with no saves. Eldar don't really have that much of counter without taking the Firebase Cadre (because who wouldn't really?). My theoretical Skitarii list does for example, despite the Icarus array.

As a T8 GNC it will always have a 5++ thanks to FNP (unless its hit with an instant death weapon). If it's the melee version, then it effectively has a 3++.

 

To cause 3 wounds in a turn with Venators, you need 4 Venators. Thats ~800 points. If it's a 3++ you need about 9 Venators. Keep in mind that this won't even kill a WK as you've only put 3 wounds onto the thing. I ran the numbers for BS5 lascanons and autonanons a few pages ago and its also rough, but probably better for the points.

 

I don't intend this to be confrontational and I don't want to get into an argument. I just feel it'll take a lot more than you're saying to deal with one.

[Slips]

 

I'm not sold a lightning with rad missiles. Here's my reasoning. A lightning has a 50% chance to arrive 2nd turn and closer to 80% on turn 3. If you debuf the WK turn 2 and put a few wounds on it the earliest it'll die is turn 3. If your lightning doesn't make it onto the board until turn 3 then the WK will be running around doing things until about turn 4.

 

A melee WK will be in your lines by turn 3 at the latest, so you won't be able to shoot it anyway. A shooty WK will be exploding 1-2 vehicles every turn, so by turn 3 you'll have lost 3-6 3HP vehicles or 4-8 by turn 4. At that point the WK has done it's job. You're better off ignoring it outright and using those points on something else.

*snip for brevity*

Of course, they're going to be prime targets, which is why you keep them in terrain, and fit them with a Dozer so that they can move fast and ignore it all the while shooting off their 2 shot S10 Ordnance. 

 

3 Predators with Lascannons comes to 345pts and brings 6 Lascannon shots (4 hits, 3 wounds, no save), and 12 Autocannon Shots (8 hits, maybe 3 wounds, 1 wound in 2 turns of shooting = 7 wounds total.

 

3 Vendettas available as a Lord of War from IA3; 2nd Edition gives you 9 TL Lascannons = 6-7 hits, causing 4-5 wounds with no saves. Eldar don't really have that much of counter without taking the Firebase Cadre (because who wouldn't really?). My theoretical Skitarii list does for example, despite the Icarus array. 

 

Can you go into a bit more detail about what you mean by "No saves"? Since its now a T8 Gargantuan Creature, it always gets its new built-it FNP at minimum.

And if we're talking Shooty-Knight, the one with the most S:D Shots has 2 HWC while the one with the Sun Cannon has a 5++ in addition to its FNP.

 

Melee-Knight is what it is but with it now being Gargantuan, it can shoot its 2 shoulder mounted guns at two different targets anyways and charge 3D6 (iirc).

 

Its 3+ Armor save might as well not be there, true, but if the list has a Warlock/Farseer, it can cast Protect of whatever on it an up it to a 2+ armor.