Ulrik_Ironfist Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 So I was inspired by the 7th ed codex discussion, and wanted to ask about rough riders. I've heard a lot about them, so I took a look. The stats don't look impressive, and they're lacking some special rules that would make them really useful. However, I saw a battrep in which they wrecked some chaos space marines. I'd want to use them as a highly mobile weapons squad. Putting the Hunting lances up front to use for melee. How would you use them? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306336-rough-rider-discussion/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father Mehman Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 I'd get them in the flank and try to destroy whatever I could. Probably aim for an elite unit and get stuck-in. Then, hopefully they could hang on until some Ogryns could get there and smash some heads. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306336-rough-rider-discussion/#findComment-4012905 Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 The idiocy of the hunting lance concept is a huge turn-off...but the idea of a small squadron without the lances as a fast melta platform...that has appeal. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306336-rough-rider-discussion/#findComment-4012913 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulrik_Ironfist Posted April 18, 2015 Author Share Posted April 18, 2015 The idiocy of the hunting lance concept is a huge turn-off...but the idea of a small squadron without the lances as a fast melta platform...that has appeal. I agree, the lance does seem a bit of an anachronism, and I'd be really pleased if they could take carapace armor and had BS4. They seem like they should be the guard equivalent to space marine bikers. I don't use bikers much, I never really wanted to, but the more I look at my dark angels, the more I think about using them. Maybe I should get used to that type of unit before I commit to rough riders, besides, I like elysians, and they can't take rough riders, the rough riders would have to come from a different guard detachment. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306336-rough-rider-discussion/#findComment-4012963 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 The lance is good, but situational as you must use it on the first charge. As mentioned speedy application of special weapons is one of the main appeals. Best use is skulking around waiting for the right moment to pounce so they work well as a counter assault unit. They do need something though, they need a bit of a points drop and some buffs - carapace would be a good start or at least the option for it. So they're not useless, just be aware that they're one of the few units in the codex that struggles to find a place. As Nico demonstrates this can be an advantage as it means most people have no idea what they can do. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306336-rough-rider-discussion/#findComment-4013164 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW1 Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 Hmmm ... This has reminded me I've got some squirrelled away somewhere. Painting a few horses might make a bit of a nice break from painting lots of troops. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306336-rough-rider-discussion/#findComment-4013218 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodemus Doloroso Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 The advantage to Rough Riders I find is not so much that people don't know what they can do, but that they've been influenced by all the hate online, and therefore totally ignore/write off the rough riders. I find it goes something like this: Enemy turn 1-2: "Oh, guys on horses. I've read on the interwebz that they really suck. This guy is so dumb for bringing them. Horses are a dumb idea anyway" After my turn 2: "Oh snap! That whole squad just evaporated! golly gee I thought the interwebz said those horsie things suck. Better shoot everything at them." Now, granted, regular Codex: AM rough riders will vanish if the enemy looks cross-eyed at them. Their stats are only those of regular guardsmen and it only takes a few losses (easy to inflict) to force a LD check at leadership 8. But, if you shield them and if your opponent has read the internet or thinks along the lines of march10k you can manoeuvre them into position and deal a blow out of all proportion to their points cost, really messing up the enemy's plans. I have had good success advanging rough riders behind a wall of chimeras, then when the time is right, having the chimeras peel off to make an opening for the riders to charge though. However, once an opponent has suffered that fate once, he's unlikely to allow it to happen again, but then the RR's can be a bit of a force multiplier as he focuses on them instead of on what he probably really should be. To WarriorFish's other point, Death Riders have the special rules rough riders really ought to: carapace armour, 6+ FNP, reroll rough terrain tests, WS4, and the old Death Korps "never have to take Ld tests for losing 25%" rule which is so so handy. However, on the other hand, Death Riders tend to get respect because of this and I've therefore not found them to be any better than regular rough riders because of that -- they attract too much fire and cost enough that it hurts more to lose them all before they can charge. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306336-rough-rider-discussion/#findComment-4013346 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodemus Doloroso Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 P.S. -- I'm bringing my rough riders to a tournament I'm attending at the end of May so will try to put up batreps again. What I really need to do is finish my second squad of rough riders, and go to a battle with 2x 10 rough riders each with x2 meltaguns and see how they fare. That's still only 250 points. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306336-rough-rider-discussion/#findComment-4013349 Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 *gasp* Only 250 points? When I imagine what I could field for 250 points... ~drool~ Seriously, rough riders have character and add tons of elan to a list...I have a squadron with dual melta on ogre kingdoms hunting cats...they look great, but for the points? I screw around with them in training games for new players, but they wouldn't come within a mile of my competitive lists. Relying on the enemy to dismiss them is no recipe for success...relying on the enemy to focus fire on them after they've burned their lances implies an even greater level of idiocy on his part! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306336-rough-rider-discussion/#findComment-4013420 Share on other sites More sharing options...
gomericus Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 Rough Riders! I love them,,in my standard list I run 3 squadrons of 9 with 2 flamers each. Which equals out to 14 lance hits,4 regular guard hits flailing their arms about and horse kicks to the face which should hit first every time, They are fast have a huge charge range vs most guard units can kill well above their points cost and are not something most people are expecting nor prepared for. However they are the very definition of a glass jaw. point them at something nasty you want to go away charge them and forget them as many times once they've wiped something out they garner lots hate via incoming fire so be prepared to loose them,but that is like anything else in the guard ,there's always more bodies to throw in, Also you have to use them with some preplanning/thought, they have to be screened as they have paper armour,so use buildings,hills,trees other troops ect to shield them until the time is right to attack. Side note,,,,forget what the interwebs say about them,with so many so called uber lists with death stars and blah blah blah if you want them,if you like them,use them,it's your army, in a scifi setting with machines mutated with living beings and eating souls,with hover craft and bugs running everywhere and what not who's really to say they do not fit it, Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306336-rough-rider-discussion/#findComment-4013470 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulrik_Ironfist Posted April 19, 2015 Author Share Posted April 19, 2015 Von Clausewitz said, "War is not an exercise of the will directed at inanimate matter," essentially sating that you cannot modernize war. It is, for me at least, the foundation for the rule, "Boys before toys." The more individual dudes I can put on the table the more effective my toys will be. Transports do no good without troops in them, fliers are useless without troops to support, and tanks need the infantry to apply pressure to objectives so they can do their work effectively. Rough Riders, I think, will find their way into my army and probably more than just one unit of them. I plan on getting more thunderwolf cavalry for my wolves, because they work very well. In that case the opponent knows what they can do, and dedicates an inordinate amount of firepower to killing them (I always take them as a melee unit, with storm shields, because they have a better chance of surviving everything that they see thrown at them). Rough riders could probably use a points reduction, or they need to gain some extra rules, like scout or move through cover. BS4 and carapace armor would be nice, especially for their use as mobile weapons teams. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306336-rough-rider-discussion/#findComment-4013559 Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 Rough riders could probably use a points reduction, or they need to gain some extra rules, like scout or move through cover. BS4 and carapace armor would be nice, especially for their use as mobile weapons teams. Definitely...at their points cost, they need to have carapace armor, or be T4 by virtue of the mount...or something. I suspect that GW would more likely give them WS4 than BS4. mobile melta is what they'd be good for, but that's not the way GW conceptualizes them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306336-rough-rider-discussion/#findComment-4013574 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulrik_Ironfist Posted April 19, 2015 Author Share Posted April 19, 2015 True, giving them WS4 and carapace would be fine too, they'd be a good unit to present a melee threat, which would be nice, and since our fliers can squadron up, we can still get 3 vendettas and/or 3 valkyries on the table plus a unit of rough riders, so not a terribly huge issue in the fast attack slot, unless you like sentinels (like I do, love me some armored walkers). Now, I have seen guard in CC wreck space marines, terminators no less, and at range I have seen terminators fall to flashlights, especially in overwatch. I have also seen them fail miserably, but if my Marines are assaulting guardsmen, my opponent did it wrong, or I put pods up in his face. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306336-rough-rider-discussion/#findComment-4013647 Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 LOL...I had a stormtrooper sergeant lock down a space marine sergeant in single combat for 7 assault phases....and come out on top...it can happen, but it's not a very good plan...when you brief the lord general "and that's when my whiteshields will whoop the snot out of the genestealers," it's time to seek other employment... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306336-rough-rider-discussion/#findComment-4013814 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendrik Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 "and that's when my whiteshields will whoop the snot out of the genestealers," wait, isn't that our basic tactic? personally i'dd base them on the fenrisian wolves statline, maybe even keeping the WS3 but definetly making them at least S4, T4. if you've been working with horses you know how hard those can hit somebody when charging forward! maybe even enough to change the hunting lance tinto Sx2 if you keep them at S3... a lance can wreak total havoc on a body when it hits well, even when it's just one used for jousting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306336-rough-rider-discussion/#findComment-4013839 Share on other sites More sharing options...
FashaTheDog Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 Rough Riders can, if they charge, eat MEQs. All that S5 AP3 hitting at I5 tends to do quite well. However, they are one shot weapons so treat them as such; protect them unit you use them, then discard. Death Riders, the Krieg version that are what Rough Riders should have been, are very much the same, but with even more good rules to make sure they do the one job they get properly and get there to do it. I personally have a hatred of Rough Riders because I am Krieg player first and foremost and the Rough Riders look like that cheap knockoff Prada product with the misspelled logo (Prado) you buy off that shady guy at the NYC bus stop, even though they predate the WWI inspired cavalry by a good decade. Also they have no access to awesome looking Commissar models. Otherwise I would use them to slam into some poor power armored clown. I think the Atilla the Hun look from 1994 is also a bit of turn off for some players. If we got a new plastic sculpt, perhaps with a sergeant that bore a striking resemblance to Teddy Roosevelt, then they would be used far more. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306336-rough-rider-discussion/#findComment-4013962 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulrik_Ironfist Posted April 20, 2015 Author Share Posted April 20, 2015 That's brilliant, having the rough riders resemble the real Roosevelt's rough riders. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306336-rough-rider-discussion/#findComment-4013990 Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 you mean a bunch of bored millionaires off to hunt themselves some Spaniards with the president? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306336-rough-rider-discussion/#findComment-4014059 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulrik_Ironfist Posted April 20, 2015 Author Share Posted April 20, 2015 Well, yeah, that's what I'd do If I were a bored millionaire, only I'd hunt terrorists, but not with this president. Also, TR, wasn't president at the time, he'd just resigned as SecNav. But yeah a unit that looks that way would be cool. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306336-rough-rider-discussion/#findComment-4014134 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommissarZac Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 Meh not a fan of them simply because they would take points away from my tanks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306336-rough-rider-discussion/#findComment-4014215 Share on other sites More sharing options...
FashaTheDog Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 Meh not a fan of them simply because they would take points away from my tanks. Just think of them as very light tank, very light equestrian tanks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306336-rough-rider-discussion/#findComment-4014647 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zectz Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 There is nothing wrong with the concept/idea behind the unit. It's just that they are over costed for what they do. It's the same problem that Ogryns have. Both units have great use in armies but people rarely field them simply because they are better off bringing other units and achieving much more for the same points cost. If RR had extra toughness, attack or carapace armour etc then they would be appropriately costed. I'm sure nobody here is denying what they can potentially do to Marines in power armour, it's just not worth the cost when there are so many better options. If you want a good laugh compare them to a unit of Seeker of Slaanesh... Either way I still play for fun, hence why I use Ogryns for example but the fact is still there that these units are poor for what you get. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306336-rough-rider-discussion/#findComment-4014677 Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 TR, wasn't president at the time, he'd just resigned as SecNav. I know...my undergrad was history...but the fact that he wasn't president yet doesn't fundamentally change anything. It was still a boondoggle for idle rich political elites! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306336-rough-rider-discussion/#findComment-4015121 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 Let's stick to the topic at hand please, lest I turn the subject matter from "political" to "political officer and his bolt pistol"... ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306336-rough-rider-discussion/#findComment-4015140 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendrik Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 how about a nice video of one of our events from last year to convince yall to abandon the roosevelt idea and go full on medieval again, drafting your rough riders from horsebound cultured planets? Slightly more OP, which would most of you rather have, a boost of the rough riders statline? a change in their equipment? a decrease in point cost? personally for me it's either 1 or/or 3, as i don't think there is anything wrong with their lances, or their armour imo. maybe an option to switch the hunting lances to powerswords would be nice, but still. edit: i'dd also like their platoon structure to appear again! can you imagine some rough rider specific orders? how cool would that be!? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306336-rough-rider-discussion/#findComment-4015187 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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