Are the Astra Militarum bad?

[Guardsman1275]

Melee armies seem to be having trouble in this edition, the only big Melee army left is GK and not many people play them, anyways what do you think of the list, I will have all of the heavy weapons be autocannons. Do you think I need more heavy guns or will it do well?

[WarriorFish]

Hmm, against those opponents a Russ army is probably not a great idea. Your second list looks better, numbers will be what gives you the edge. Things like Necrons are good against armour and low model count armies where they can leverage their strengths so big expensive tanks are playing into their hands.

 

Never forget the Guard tenets of numbers and fire power - they will always provide a safe foundation for an army. It applies in many ways, for example needing the numbers of infantry to help protect the fire power of your tanks.

[Guardsman1275]

I actually really like this second list. The vets provide mobile AT firepower with 2 melta's while the infantry squads lay down the hurton any units that have below a 3+ armour save. 8 shots a turn from the autocannons is nothing to brush off, and with 3 command squads giving orders I can give orders to every infantry squad. any units that get in 24 inches of my gunline get hit by a demolisher and lasguns and finally wyverns are the best, while 2 hellhounds can do a lot of work on necron warriors and eldar and kill marines just through weight of dice.

[hendrik]

for the pointcost of 1 hellhound you could get two more wyvern though, which are IMO more competitive!

[WarriorFish]

Indeed, I'm of the opinion that hybrid lists are generally stronger as they're much more flexible and are something Guard does well. It's also really fluffy if that's what you like :) I agree with hendrik in that a couple of Wyverns would be better - makes them hit much harder under weight of dice. You can still run a single Hellhound effectively if you want, or drop it to free up even more points to play with.

[Guardsman1275]

I know that more wyverns would be good, my mind says yes but my wallet says no anyways I like the hellhounds more against necrons, regular eldar and 'nids. I think that 2 hellhounds could kill more warriors than 3 wyverns, but I could be wrong. Though I would like to say that cost doesn't matter it does, 2 more wyverns is 112 more dollars, money I could be spending to get 150 of the ww2 russian models that I am using for guardsmen. I would rather save the money and have some good mobile anti warrior firepower.

[WarriorFish]

You're preaching to the choir comrade - I don't have four Hellhound variants for nothing ;) Wyverns are good, but a couple are fantastic for a low cost so I'd look into a second as you wouldn't believe the difference it makes over a single piece.

 

For the record they do different takes on the same role. Both annihilate infantry but where the Wyverns can do more damage from afar the Hellhound exchanges that for durability, flexibility and reliability. As ever it's about picking the best one for the job your list is trying to achieve, but the Wyvern really is a star of the codex so expect it to get toned down in some way whenever we get our new codex so my advice is to make the most of it while you can ;)

[march10k]

Nothing kills more than 3 wyverns, lol...I've stopped using them, they're idiotically effective to the point that I'm embarrassed by them.  Can't very well complain about what's broken in other armies (like malefic daemonology) while spamming out 3x3 wyverns and still fielding 2x2 proper tanks in HQ...Wyverns are about the only thing that can reliably handle (table?) armies that have 150+ infantry....which makes them too powerful against armies with 50-70 infantry.

 

/edit/

 

And I love my pair of hellhounds...but at 5 points more, each, than an eradicator, they no longer make it into my lists...maybe if I didn't have room for the eradicators in Heavy Support, but with HQ tanks in the mix, there's far less pressure on HS.

[CommissarZac]

Here's a nice flexible all around list I came up with that should help you deal with any threat

HQ: CCS

   w/Carapace Armor for commander,  Power fist for commander, Medi pack, Heavy flamer and 2 meltas, with a Tarox with a camo net = 200pts

Troops: Infantry Platoon
PCS: w/medi pack, heavy flamer, 2 flamers, power fist for Sgt, = 90pts

Inf. Sqd 1
w/flamer = 55pts

Inf. Sqd 2
w/flamer = 55pts

Conscripts = 60pts

Veteran Squad
w/Vox = 65pts

Tank Commander
w/pask, punisher tank, vanquisher tank, las cannon for Vanq, Heavy bolters for Punisher, Heavy stubber for Punisher = 400pts

Hydra
w/Dozer blade = 75pts

Total points = 1000

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

There's an old ork player adage, Boyz before Toyz! Infantry is what gets the job done at the end of the day. Tanks don't have obsec, troops do (and their transports). Tanks are there to support the infantry, so you have to have enough infantry to get the job done. Make sure you have enough infantry to secure a number of objectives, and then use your armor to blow the enemy off of his. 

 

The second thing is tactics, You destroy the opponent with fire and maneuver. If you read the US Army's description of armor and infantry, their purpose is the same, To close with and destroy the enemy through fire and maneuver, the only difference is the tools they use. Use tanks to kill the chunky things (heavy infantry, or vehicles), while you use the infantry to kill the squshy things (infantry). 

 

Look at what your opponent brings to the table, don't let him rush you, look at and evaluate how you'd play his army, use that for your base line to determine target priority, then set about taking away the toys that will hurt the most. 

 

It all boils down to what's called the OODA loop. Observe, Orient, Decide, Act. 

 

Observe - Look at the field. What deployment? Objectives? First Turn?

Orient - Look at the armies. Identify your lynchpin units, identify his. Where are the objectives? How many do you control? How many can you control if you go first?

Decide - On a plan of action with the available information.

Act - Implement your plan.

 

This process will repeat in your mind every single phase, and in it you need to account for your action, and your opponent's reaction. Metagame him, act confident, trash talk, and wear your poker face. Try to throw him off balance, by making certain units appear more crucial to your strategy than they really are, while downplaying the important ones. Or use that in reverse, to make him think that he knows, that you know that he knows. 

 

In any contest, predictability kills. Don't let him get in your head. This is stuff that comes from experience.

 

Some of the real world warfare theorycraft, applies to wargaming. 

I highly recommend the following books if you're interested in learning about strategy and tactics:

 

The Art of War - Sun Tzu -Fundamental to all modern strategy

The Book of Five Rings - Miyamoto Musashi - Philosophy of combat

On War - Carl Von Clausewitz - Modern Warfare's definitive text

The Command of the Air- Guilio Douhet - Use of Air Power 

Dicte Boelcke - Oswald Boelcke - Fundamental Air Combat strategy

 

Also look into the paper, "Modeling the Revolution in Military Affairs" by Dr. Mark Herman, and look into the theories proposed by Col. John Boyd. The last two will help you immensely from a theory perspective, giving you ways to alter your ways of playing. You can do an obscene amount of damage, by stacking special rules on an opponent. Use force multipliers like snipers or assassins, to eliminate characters, or cause effects like pinning. Used in combination you can then use a third unit to slaughter the status affected unit. 

 

Sorry for the wall of text, but there is a ton you can do with guard, and they really lend themselves to the application of real world theory.

[captain sox]

I do not hate the AM, but I am getting frusterated with almost always losing. I only won against a first time player who didn't know how to play very well

I've been playing since 2008 and let me tell you, I can count on 1 hand the number of times I've actually won a game. I don't play many games, likely 4 - 5 per year. I'm not super competitive though. I like to play and roll dice and interact with other human beings, which is why I love this hobby. I also enjoy spending quiet time at home building and painting (more like re-painting) my army. My dad always taught me to be a gracious winner, and more importantly, a gracious loser. Above all he told me to do what makes me happy. Just think about how you made that first time player feel, rather than how you feel... you helped him and I'm sure gave him a memorable game.

 

Go into a game knowing things could go either way, but most importantly go into a game to have fun!

[Guardsman1275]

On comissar Zac's list, that is not my cup of tea, it is a nice list but I like vehicles too much to only take 2  one of which will probably do nothing, because in my local meta not a single person has ever taken a flyer, a gentlemans agreement so that people do not have to waste points on AA. And the points are too clustered in the CCS in my opinion. I probably also would have taken more voxes as only one squad has one. As for wyverns another reason to only take 1 is that I do not want to be attacked after my wyverns kill an entire unit in one turn for 4 turns in a row. As for winning the main army I am worried about is actually skitari, they bring lots of armour, and even though it is all either 11 or 12 I may not have enough to kill it, will my autocannons, meltas and bring it down work well enough? as for necrons I have enough AP4 weapons to deal with them

[Guardsman1275]

I came up with another list that involves more wyverns

 

HQ

CCS  2x melta vox

Troops

PCS vox Autocannon

IS Autocannon vox

IS Autocannon vox

IS Autocannon vox

PCS grenade launcher vox

vets 2x melta vox chimera

Heavy Support

LR demo and eradicator

2x wyvern

wyvern

 

I got rid of the hellhound and added the eraticator for a bit more long range firepower, for tactics

I was thinking that I would have the infantry squads ccs and platoon command squads camp objectives 

with the CCS killing any heavier vehicles that come near. The wyverns would decimate infantry while my 2 russes can kill most things. Again I am not sure if 4 melta's and a demolisher is enough AT, but it should do some work against enemy vehicles, and almost no faction outside the AM can field 14 armour vehicles at 1000 points. I would like to see what people think though so please give me feedback.

[Altasmurf]

@ Guardsman1275

 

A few notes on your list

Your CCS should be hiding in the back not rushing forward to use meltas. Consider a lascannon, makes use of BS 4, and they can order themselves to ignore cover or tank hunt.

 

You have 2 PCS but only 3 infantry squads. Your platoon is not allowed and needs to be tweaked.

 

With your vets just keep in mind that you have to be out of your chimera to use the vox, and if your going to jump out find the points for the third melta.

 

Consider splitting your leman Russ squad. Both tanks have different targets. Just make one a tank commander and your good to go.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Guardsman 1275,

 

Are you building your lists with pencil and paper? It helps when you dig into the codex, but perhaps a roster editor like battlescribe might be helpful. It will assist you in learning your build rules, as well as give you quick references on rules, and where to find them. 

[CommissarZac]

I see I am a tread head myself so try this list out


HQ: Tank Commander w/pask, 2x Leman Russ Punishers = 430pts

Troops: Vet squad1 w/Power fist, Heavy bolter, Heavy Flamer, Melta Gun, Grenedier = 130pts
             Vet squad2 w/2xFlamers, Grenade launcher, Grenedier = 90pts

Heavy:  Leman Russ Vanquisher w/Las cannon, extra armor = 155pts
             Leman Russ Demolisher w/Las cannon, storm bolter = 185pts

Total = 990pts

That's 4 leman russes for under 1000 pts

[Guardsman1275]

I will give the ccs a lascannon

as for the pcs they are troops choices, so while every platoon needs a pcs a pcs does not need to be in a platoon, like infantry squads

as for the vets I willn try to find points somwhere

splitting the tanks like that would not work. Because in the rules it says that a tank commander must have another tank in his squad,

I think I could get rid of a wyvern, buy another infantry squad with the pointsmake the tanks more effective and while I like wyverns a lot an eradicator fills a similar role, bug can also take light transports and heavier infantry squad much better than a wyvern and I think that 2 wyverns should be plenty to kill all the light infantry my opponent brings

here is the updated list

HQ

CCS  lascannon vox

Troops

PCS vox Autocannon

IS Autocannon vox

IS Autocannon vox

PCS grenade launcher vox

Infantry Squad Autocannon vox

IS Autocannon vox

vets 2x melta vox chimera

Heavy Support

LR demo

2x wyvern

LR Eradicator

tell me what you think

[Toxichobbit]

I'm afraid your reading it wrong. Everything in the box under "Infantry Platoon" (C:AM p94/95) is part of an Infantry Platoon. In order to have a Platoon Command Squad, you need a minimum sized Platoon for it to be included in (1 Platoon Command Squad, 2 Infantry Squads). There's no other way to get a Platoon Command Squad, or indeed any other part of a Platoon. None of them on their own are a Troops slot, only the Platoon itself is a Troops slot.

 

If you look through the rest of the AM army list you'll see several other entries inside boxes. These are all options that do not take up a slot on their own. For example Sergeant Harker isn't a Troops slot, but can be added to a Veteran Squad which is a Troops choice. Or a Primaris Psyker doesn't take up a HQ slot nor count as a mandatory HQ choice, but is still listed under HQ. Stuff like platoon organisation was much better explained in previous Codices, unfortunately this one doesn't bother explaining very well, just a small sentence on Platoon composition but no explanation that none of the Infantry Platoon choices cannot be taken separately.

 

The list above is fine though, you've got four Infantry Squads to two Platoon Command Squads, so your meeting the minimum requirements for each platoon. Autocannon heavy should serve you well, it's probably the most versatile heavy weapon at the moment. I'm not convinced by the Demolisher though - between it's points cost, short range and inability to ignore cover I'm not a fan. If it works for you though, then keep it.

[Jacinda]

Tox, he has 2 platoons. Each consist of a Platoon Command Squad and two Infantry Squads. I believe he plans on deploying them as individual units since each IS has a vox and that should be allowed by the platoon's rules.

[Toxichobbit]

Tox, he has 2 platoons. Each consist of a Platoon Command Squad and two Infantry Squads. I believe he plans on deploying them as individual units since each IS has a vox and that should be allowed by the platoon's rules.

Don't worry, I know - see the third paragraph of my last post. Guardsman1275's previous lists did have 2 PCS but only 3 IS, which is why we're talking about it.

as for the pcs they are troops choices, so while every platoon needs a pcs a pcs does not need to be in a platoon, like infantry squads

I wasn't sure by this comment in his last post about PCS if he is talking about deployment or army list building. To me it sounded like the latter, so I was just clarifying to get it cleared up. It could have been the former of course, but it's pretty ambiguous.

[Jacinda]

Oh! OK.

 

I saw that and thought "doesn't need to be in the blob? Can't be in the blob is more like it."

[CommissarZac]

splitting the tanks like that would not work. Because in the rules it says that a tank commander must have another tank in his squad,

The tank commander HAS a another tank in his squad. You have Pask in his punisher then another punisher with his as a HQ choice.

Then you have 1 Vanquisher as a heavy support slot, and a Demolisher in another heavy slot. This is perfectly legal and IT GIVES YOU 4 LEMAN RUSSES FOR UNDER 1000 pts LOL!!!

[Guardsman1275]

splitting the tanks like that would not work. Because in the rules it says that a tank commander must have another tank in his squad,

The tank commander HAS a another tank in his squad. You have Pask in his punisher then another punisher with his as a HQ choice.

Then you have 1 Vanquisher as a heavy support slot, and a Demolisher in another heavy slot. This is perfectly legal and IT GIVES YOU 4 LEMAN RUSSES FOR UNDER 1000 pts LOL!!!

I was not refering to your list, I was talking about altasmurfs suggestion that I put 1 tank as an HQ choice to put them in 2 seperate units, which you could not do as you would have to have another tank to make a tank a valid HQ choice

[march10k]

splitting the tanks like that would not work. Because in the rules it says that a tank commander must have another tank in his squad,

The tank commander HAS a another tank in his squad. You have Pask in his punisher then another punisher with his as a HQ choice.

Then you have 1 Vanquisher as a heavy support slot, and a Demolisher in another heavy slot. This is perfectly legal and IT GIVES YOU 4 LEMAN RUSSES FOR UNDER 1000 pts LOL!!!

Now that's just not friendly

[Altasmurf]

@ guardsmen1275

 

Yeah sorry about that, brain fart. Your second list looks better. As for all the all tank army, they win big and lose big. as long as your ok with that fact they can be a fun army.