Are the Astra Militarum bad?

[Guardsman1275]

I would rather have a list that has a fighting chance against dark eldar and necrons

[CommissarZac]

splitting the tanks like that would not work. Because in the rules it says that a tank commander must have another tank in his squad,

The tank commander HAS a another tank in his squad. You have Pask in his punisher then another punisher with his as a HQ choice.

Then you have 1 Vanquisher as a heavy support slot, and a Demolisher in another heavy slot. This is perfectly legal and IT GIVES YOU 4 LEMAN RUSSES FOR UNDER 1000 pts LOL!!!

Now that's just not friendly

LOL I did not mean for it to come out that way. I mearly needed to Emphisise FOUR LEMAN RUSSES for under 1000 pts LOL

[Captain Caine 24th]

Guard isn't bad, just easily difficult. You need to think a lot more, and deployment is very critical. Make no mistake, the army has very good units, even compared to other armies. The difference is each of these units have weaknesses that can really hurt. As an example, leman russes can be very good, but if even a small space marine force gets into hand to hand combat with it, it's done.

 

In a way you need something like 3 squads to do what 1 marine squad can do. Now, even though outnumbering the opponent has serious advantages--and those advantages can be multiplied by psykers, orders, etc, it's very hard to concentrate firepower. What i mean is, just as a practical matter, deployment on the game table does not mesh well with theory. Vanguard deployment zones can be a problem for a hoard. Maybe there are buildings in the way. Too much terrain could really slow down a mechanized assault. You want to plan for this sort of thing, but planning only goes so far. 

 

Asymmetric deployment. The large footprint also presents a problem for screening your units, or 'bubblewrapping' or setting up picket lines, or whatever you want to call it. Protect those valuable assets with cheap units. Instead of buying wargear for nice invulnerable saves, you've got cheap squads to protect other squads. Done right you can completely shut down a drop pod assault by giving them no where to deploy, but in front of you. Outflank, later deep strike, and infiltrate can also be a problem. A mix of mobility and long range fire power can mitigate the effectiveness of enemy units deploying this way--but again all units need to be supporting each other.

 

Another benefit of cheap units is confusing the opponent's target priority. Set up the opponent to kill something that doesn't matter, then hit him with a counter assault. (i.e. expensive sternguard drop pod comes in and kills a leman russ, a near by squad of demolitions vets wipes out the sternguard, or maybe bullgryns are nearby to charge. Similarly, if I deep strike a nasty close combat squad like death company with jump packs behind your lines, things like wyverns (being able to shoot anywhere in a 48" bubble) really help to concentrate fire where needed. So, that is something to consider in deployment as well. Try to anticipate what your enemy is going to try and kill first, and set up a kill box.

 

Maelstrom can be difficult as there are a lot of different objectives which often favors a fast army. I suggest a mix of mounted and regular units.

 

I never did figure out how to kill flying hive tyrant lists. My vendettas never really performed well across a great deal of games. But, when it comes down to it, play the objectives above all else, even if it means ignoring a really nasty unit sometimes. 

 

Good luck out there.

[march10k]

Maelstrom can be difficult?  For the other guy, I guess...Being able to spam super-scorers gives us a decided advantage in maelstrom. Sure, we suffer from not being likely to score the "melee-based kills" cards, but most other armies have far more trouble with maelstrom.  But our huge advantage is that instead of choosing 1-2 of the 6 objectives to camp and trying to position forces to be able to react to 2-3 of the rest, while writing off 1-2 as impractical, we can pick 3-4 to blanket with 2-3 superscorers each and still have plenty of forces to deal with the rest...I usually find myself in possession of 5-6 objectives by turn 3, and often end the game the same way. 

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

That's most what I was trying to get at in my little wall 'o text about warfare theory. Guard can really apply that book learning well to the tabletop, since it is the closest thing on the tabletop to a real military force, at least in structure. Now, I'm a really big fan of the Stormtrooper army (scions), because of their AP3 basic weapons, and move through cover, and their better armor, also their access to better armed transports. That's why they make up the bulk of my force, and their better orders from the MT  book. They cost more, but they offer tons of tactical options, for their points. Stormtroopers are the Ranger QRF, they come in to rescue your guys by dropping in and throwing down some serious hurt for a small team, and many folks use them that way. I actually want to have 3 10 man units, 3 taurox primes, and 3 six man units to put in vendettas or deepstrike. 

 

Now, you can apply that to guardsmen too, if you go airborne, which I don't suggest unless you have a bunch of units on the table already. I have found that going airborne (use the Elysian drop troops rules if this is really the way you want to go), negates a lot of problems with terrain. However with Elysians you don't get armor, so bear that in mind. You get some neat little dune buggy like things, called venators, but they really don't cut it, taurox primes are better (same AV, but more weapons and they can transport 10 troops).

 

You have to find a list that you want to play, I like my airborne/air assault lists, but I like tanks too. I just don't have a lot of them (any for guard, I know I'm a terrible guardsman).

 

Keep playing, sure you'll lose a lot, but remember, you learn more from defeat than you do from victory. Remember what Thomas Eddison said when he invented the light bulb, "I tried a thousand times before I succeeded, and you know what I learned? A thousand ways how not to make a light bulb..." Take an inventory of how you have been playing, ask your opponent about what he sees across the table, learn what you're doing, see what your tendencies are. Then you build a list around that style. Don't pick a list based on what wins for others, you won't have fun because it's not your list. Make a list that fits your style.  

[march10k]

Yep,  There are as many valid ways to play guard as there are enemies to be faced.  My own style happens to be to saturate the enemy with AV12 targets in the form of chimeras and armored sentinels with support from demolishers and Pasquisher. But putting 200 infantry on the table (at 5ppm, it's not hard) and backing that up with a few pieplates is equally valid, as is everything inbetween.  Figure out what works for you and then wash, rinse, repeat.  Personally, I'm excited at the moment to finally field my Apocalypse Now fleet of hueys, I mean valkyries, flying onto the table on turn two to decimate whatever's harrassing a small mech contingent.

[Guardsman1275]

Be sure to play ride of the valkyries when your planes arrive on turn 2

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Yep, There are as many valid ways to play guard as there are enemies to be faced. My own style happens to be to saturate the enemy with AV12 targets in the form of chimeras and armored sentinels with support from demolishers and Pasquisher. But putting 200 infantry on the table (at 5ppm, it's not hard) and backing that up with a few pieplates is equally valid, as is everything inbetween. Figure out what works for you and then wash, rinse, repeat. Personally, I'm excited at the moment to finally field my Apocalypse Now fleet of hueys, I mean valkyries, flying onto the table on turn two to decimate whatever's harrassing a small mech contingent.

Please God tell me you have Ride of the Valkyries queued up on your phone when you do it.

BTW, you Guardsman1275, you beat me to it...

[Frater Cornelius]

Just be sure to roll for reserved first. Will be quite awkward if you queue the music and nothing arrives :D

[Stofficus]

My own experience with guard since 2011 is that they have good firepower, and can form an excellent gunline, but trying to play to mobility undermines their key strengths, especially as the power curve has largely left the Guard in the dust. 

The core Guard codex offers a few potential builds, but they suffer from the problem of they'll do well against some armies and fail completely against others. Mechvets is a good example - the old powerbuild and quite troublesome to Tyranids, SM and Orks who have limited mobility and aren't especially good at destroying massed armour at range, will fall over and die screaming to Necrons, Eldar and Tau. 

Footguard are pretty bad against everything (which is what I'm stuck with with Death Korps of Krieg - no vets, no Chimeras save for Stormtrooper equivalents) - the amount of anti-infantry firepower which can also ignore cover these days is quite frightening to footslogging men, and the completely absence of mobility will usually result in a loss in Maelstrom games. Only through application of superior firepower guarded by men whos primary purpose is to die first can it really emerge on top. Russes, artillery, the FW types in particular - thudd guns, heavy mortars, artillery carriages, Sabres, Rapiers, which can work but suffers from, unfortunately, not being very exciting to play with or against. 

Broadly speaking though, if you know the biggest threats to your particular army composition, you can prioritize killing those things first. Bikes are the bane of tank lists, ignores cover units must be killed to protect foot lists, and you mustn't try to fight another army at its own game. Simply put, anything the IG can do another army can do better, but generally speaking the IG can do more seperate things than most other armies. Fighting eldar? Don't even try to be mobile, just focus on throwing volume of fire on them with cheap units. Fighting orks? Don't try to blob, bring out Chimeras. Tau? Don't use light vehicles or foot, bring out the Russes en masse, etc. 

In short, in my experience, IG needs to do a certain degree of soft tailoring to really compete. I abhor list tailoring, but the weaknesses in the IG book are really codex dependent, and bringing the wrong IG "archetype" against the wrong opponent is an almost surefire way to lose. 

[Toxichobbit]

I'm going to disagree on Mechanised Guard being troublesome to Tyranids. It depends on the Tyranid list of course, but most competitive, even semi-competitive builds will be running at least a pair of devourer armed winged Hive Tyrants, sometimes 3 or more. They'll easily take down one vehicle a turn each and that's without taking into account the rest of the Tyranid force's firepower. Arm 10-12 isn't an issue for Tyranids, they can strip hullpoints really quickly and Guard infantry are a piece of cake for them to deal with once they're out of their metal boxes. Armour 13 and especially 14 are a much bigger issue as they're lacking in high strength long range weapons and have to strip hull points rather than fish for destroy results on the damage table, due to the lack of low AP.

[march10k]

Just be sure to roll for reserved first. Will be quite awkward if you queue the music and nothing arrives

LOL...point taken...although, with them arriving on a rerollable 2+, thanks to my officer of the fleet, I 'm confident they'll be there for me!

My own experience with guard since 2011 is that they have good firepower, and can form an excellent gunline, but trying to play to mobility undermines their key strengths, especially as the power curve has largely left the Guard in the dust.

The core Guard codex offers a few potential builds, but they suffer from the problem of they'll do well against some armies and fail completely against others. Mechvets is a good example - the old powerbuild and quite troublesome to Tyranids, SM and Orks who have limited mobility and aren't especially good at destroying massed armour at range, will fall over and die screaming to Necrons, Eldar and Tau.

Tau? Are you kidding? I eat tau for breakfast, they can't handle AV14, and they don't do well against AV12 spam, either. It's daemons and necrons that defeat me...utterly...as in I struggle to avoid being tabled. Eldar are tough, but actually ok. It's just certain cheese builds (the unkillable transport of 100 twinlinked shots...filled with wraithguard...wash, rinse, repeat) that give trouble, and even those are manageable with my own dirty tricks (nine multilaser shots into rear armor from an outflanking sentinel squadron...pain!!! Deepstriking avenger strike fighter....more pain!)

[Stofficus]

The local Tau are exceptionally cheesy where I am - Missilecides, Skyrays, Farsight Bomb, whatever is best suited to killing whatever it is you put in your list (bit if a tailorer, to say the least), and I have found that only AV14 en masse really creates problems for them. Enough Chimeras will be annoying, but you'll hemorrhage units, just not as fast as if they were on foot. At range, only Hammerheads can really challenge Leman Russes, and they'll never have as many as you. Even the Farisght bomb, by virtue of being rather large, won't be able to do much if you deploy concentrated without exposed flanks.

 

The Tyranid player, on the flipside, is quite reasonable and dislikes spamming Flyrants, using a combo of small, medium and big bugs of the shooting and melee variety with a preference for deep-strikes and infiltrates of various flavours, to which mechvets can do quite well against.

Agree on the Daemons and Necrons - they're tailor made to wreck a vehicle-centric list, which is the IG's chief strength these days, I aim more to die as slowly as possible than actually win against them. Foot lists, however, can work versus Crons - Tesla doesn't seem to be as popular anymore with the Decurion favouring warriors quite heavily, so cheap men slowing them down while buying time for blasts and support fire can do alright. 

Eldar are a bit of an odd duck- the old book actually seemed to struggle versus massed AV14 - provided you can pop transports (challenging I know, bloody Serpents). Lances are unreliable at best and lack volume of fire. The new book, however, will eat armoured Guard alive with so much D, the Wraithknight and bikes getting buffed and I suspect deep striking Falcons with BS5 Fire Dragons will be very popular. I could kill Eldar in their old form (though lose by objectives - they're durable enough to just live long enough to reap the points in Maelstrom which Guard can't challenge with poor mobility), but the new Eldar? I don't favour my chances. 

[Bionicman]

Yeah, new eldar got even better, even more mobile and besides the serpent shield more dangerous to guard.

 

I favor footguard lately because of all the high S low AP shooting nowadays. Mostly in combinition with artillery or flyers. As some of you struggle with the mobility issue - it all boils down to objective placement. Scouting (liber heresius) and running (orders) CC orientated blobs will be a pain to remove from midfield, while artillery is pounding the enemies deployment zone. If I can hold 2/3 of the battlefield (mid ground and either my zone or killing dudes at objectives in his) I will win the game.

 

Conscripts are easily the best unit in the game when it comes to "sitting it out". It took me some time to see the beauty that concept - whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also - comming from an army where 7 models cost the same as said 50 conscripts and their priest.

 

Edit: English..do I speak it?

[march10k]

What aint no country I ever heard of, they speak English in what?

 

I haven't played against the new eldar yet, but deepstriking falcons with BS5 fire dragons sounds...beastly!

 

I agree that conscripts are underrated. I ground down a flyrant with a mob of 50 conscripts back in 3rd or 4th edition...he could only kill about 4 models a turn, and even needing 5s to hit and 6s to wound, he was forced to take so many 3+ saves that he eventually died...and then raveners ate my conscripts, arriving a tick too late to save the flyrant, lol!  Honestly, though, mobbed up infantry squads are better.  Statistically, yeah, 3ppm for BS/WS2 is better than 5ppm for BS/WS3...however....how many models do you have?  I can field 223 guardsmen, so I don't have to worry about it, but if you've only got 60-70 infantry, then you don't have enough quantity to ignore quality.  2x50 conscripts firing at BS2 AND 2x50 guardsmen firing at BS3 is one thing...20 guardsmen firing at BS3, 10 veterans firing at BS4, and 50 conscripts firing at BS2 isn't really lifting my skirt.  80 doesn't overwhelm anywhere near the way that 200 does, so you need that extra point of skill!