Baal Strike Force and Unwieldy weapons

[Indefragable]

Can Initiative-1 weapons be modified?

 

Specifically does the +1I bonus on the Charge provided by the Baal Strike Force (BSF) formation increase the Initiative of models equipped with Unwieldy weapons such as Power Fist, Thunder Hammer, etc…?

 

 

 

Here is the debate: previous opponents I have played against have said that Unwieldy weapons are always Initiative 1 no matter what. No ifs, ands, or buts. Every game I have played up to this point (this was my 5th at the club, 8th ever, so not a huge pedigree to go on…) I have gone off of the idea that Unwieldy weapons always go last. This time, however, my opponent brought up the idea that the +1I from Baal Strike Force should apply to all weapons (one of the reasons he was the “perfect” opponent). I fought back saying that I thought Unwieldy weapons could never be modified. We went back and forth for a few minutes trying to hash it out (imagine if in other situations people were so eager to support an idea that in fact hurt themselves…imagine if Congress did that….I think all our heads would explode!) and ended up asking my opponent’s older brother playing at the next table over. Said brother’s suggestion was to look up the Unwieldy USR in the BRB and see what the exact wording is: if it explicitly stated that NO modifiers of ANY sort are allowed than BSF has no effect on PF/TH. But if it did NOT bar modifiers than PF/TH etc… could strike at Initiative Step 2 on the Charge.

 

 

 

The copy of the BRB I have is the small-format, soft-cover 7th edition one with the Blood Angels on the front (just so we are all clear on this) and the Unwieldy rule does NOT explicitly prevent any modifiers.

 

 

 

…as such we continued playing the game where my PF/TH and even Astorath all got to attack at Initiative Step 2.

 

 

 

This is absolutely pivotal to know for army building moving forward.

 

 

 

For example, I have specifically been incorporating Veteran Sgts with Power Swords into as many squads as possible (when facing SM/MEQ) in order to capitalize on the first-strike capability (A BA Vet Sgt w/ Power Sword gets 4x S5 I5 AP3 attacks on the Charge). Most SM players I have faced like to equip almost every Sgt with a PF, letting the rest of the squad absorb wounds until the Sgt can “auto-squish” 2x of my Marines. Rinse and repeat until my squad is dead.

 

 

 

This also massively effects Astorath. I have declined Challenges every time I have used him since he kinda sucks in a 1-1 fight against most of other HQs…his value is in the buff to Death Company. However, having a 16% chance of Instant-Death before the enemy can strike back is a HUGE bonus. The before part is critical because every single enemy Warlord (excluding Azrael) I have faced always brings a TH or Axe or something that is I1.

 

 

 

To me, this one fact suddenly makes Furious Charge for the BA that much better…the “chapter tactics” of the Blood Angels is to CHARGE at all costs and it really evens the playing field when compared to other SM Chapter Tactics. Weathering the Imperial Fists’ Bolter Drill. Standing firm against the TL madness of Salamanders’ meltas and flamers. All that becomes worth it to insta-squish half the enemy squad with a PF-toting Vet Sgt. Offense really is the best defense.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

TL: DR:

 

 

 

 

 

Rules As Written (RAW): Unwieldy, as written in the BRB, does not say you are prevented from getting +1I on the Charge with BSF.

 

 

 

Rules As Intended (RAI): ??????? That is what this post is for. What do you, the community (and fellow Sons of Sanguinius) think is the intention of the designers in this regard?

 

 

 

 

 

What do you think and what is your evidence for thinking so?

[Jolemai]

Look up modifiers at the start of the brb. Sadly I can't give you a quote or page number right now but the gist is that Unwieldy strikes at INT step one regardless of other modifiers.

[Indefragable]

I went back and pored over the BRB and I found nothing that says Unwieldy weapons can not be modified. (I saved photos of the pages on my phone to reference but will not post due to forum rules). All the beginning of the BRB says is that some stats can be modified, but no stat can be modified below 0 ( or 2 for Saves of any sort).

 

Also in front section of the book there is nothing mentioning weapon stats being either modifiable or non-modifiable.

 

As I have stated up until my last game I have played under the assumption that Unwieldy weapons always go last because that's what everyone said. Now that I dig into it I am not finding hard evidence to support that.

[Dbourg]

Please let this be a thing. My scout Sargent with a pf killing a hq.

[Indefragable]

Please let this be a thing. My scout Sargent with a pf killing a hq.

I am not letting myself get excited until it can be proven one way or another, but so far I am not finding anything saying the Initiative of a weapon can NOT be modified...

[Aspecti]

Page 8, Multiple Modifiers: "...first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values."


So yes, you do get the +1 Initiative when charging, but then the Unwieldy rule SETS your Initiative to 1.

[Paikis]

 

Please let this be a thing. My scout Sargent with a pf killing a hq.

I am not letting myself get excited until it can be proven one way or another, but so far I am not finding anything saying the Initiative of a weapon can NOT be modified...

 

Page 2 of the rule book, under the heading Multiple Modifiers.

 

Your scout Sergeant has Init4, +1 from the BSF gives you 5 and then the Unwieldy rule sets your Init to 1.

[Indefragable]

Page 8, Multiple Modifiers: "...first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values."

 

 

So yes, you do get the +1 Initiative when charging, but then the Unwieldy rule SETS your Initiative to 1.

Ah! So that's the formula. That makes sense.

What are some other cases (doesn't have to be Initiative) of a Stat being SET by something?

 

The example that comes to mind for me would be a Bolter: a character who is (or boosted to) Strength 6 firing a Bolter only Wounds at Strength 4 b/c that is the Strength of the weapon. It does not matter how hard he grips the weapon, it is still only going to fire the same projectile.

[Indefragable]

And thank you everyone who weighed in and pointed out the specific wording that puts this topic for rest.

 

You have greatly helped out a Noob.

 

Thanks

 

-Indy

[Bukimimaru]

For a split second there... oh man.

[Dbourg]

Hopes and dreams crushed

[Vel'Cona]

"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."

[CastellanDeMolay]

I know this is beating the putrefied remains of good old equus ferus caballus, but another reason it wouldn't work is the wording of the Unwieldy rule. It's a set value, so it changes when the model piles in and fights in Assault, rather than being a modifier to the model's initiative. A BSF marine charging would have Initiative 5 on that turn (for the sake of things like initiative tests) but would still be piling in and fighting at Initiative step 1. 

[Indefragable]

I know this is beating the putrefied remains of good old equus ferus caballus, but another reason it wouldn't work is the wording of the Unwieldy rule. It's a set value, so it changes when the model piles in and fights in Assault, rather than being a modifier to the model's initiative. A BSF marine charging would have Initiative 5 on that turn (for the sake of things like initiative tests) but would still be piling in and fighting at Initiative step 1.

Huh?

[Ming]

Yep, its too bad. Even spells can't be used to change the I value of unwieldy specialist weapons...and I hate that axes are I1. (of course I also hate that chainswords are not rending, that marines are not all base 2A, that drop pods are not assault vehicles, or that lascannons are not S10).

[Indefragable]

Yep, its too bad. Even spells can't be used to change the I value of unwieldy specialist weapons...and I hate that axes are I1. (of course I also hate that chainswords are not rending, that marines are not all base 2A, that drop pods are not assault vehicles, or that lascannons are not S10).

Some of this stuff does not make sense to me from a design point of view (I get the game mechanics of it). To your point, why would you EVER take a Power Axe when you can take a Power Fist (besides to save points)? It would make sense if there was a "semi-unwieldy" rule, so that Axes went at I2. That way they would go later than other weapons but still before PF.

As for Chainsword...come on! It's a freakin' CHAINSWORD! Based on all the video game portrayals of them alone you'd think they would have Rending or Shred or +1 Strength or SOMETHING cool...

...and maybe I am biased but shouldn't all Two-Handed weapons be + 1 Strength? I mean it seems like 2H weapons are a disadvantage b/c they do the same thing as 1H but do not give you an extra attack (Glaive Encarmine swords I am looking at you)

[Urauloth]

The power axe is kind of in a weird spot. Its lack of specialist weapon and lower price band isn't enough compared to the power fist, given the feeble strength buff it offers. Meanwhile, compared to the sword, the initiative penalty is too harsh for the AP upgrade in a lot of circumstances. They're great on Chaos TDA (where they're free) but besides that, it's hard to find a great use for them imo. It's a shame, because the models look superb.

[Ushtarador]

Yeah GW made it quite clear this time by wording that a model using an unwieldy weapons piles in and strikes at initiative 1 no matter its initiative, no more arguments there ^^

[Brother Raul]

Ditto on chainswords and rending, if a shuriken gun can rend then a fugkin chainsword should nearly id. Nearly.

[Indefragable]

Ditto on chainswords and rending, if a shuriken gun can rend then a fugkin chainsword should nearly id. Nearly.

http://youtu.be/uZjDz5YshEw

[Dbourg]

Great video

[Vel'Cona]

Agreed, I've always believed chainswords should have either a. rending or b. AP of at least 5.  It's silly that with AP values on weapons (since 6th edition?), GW hasn't done anything to recognize the difference between a combat knife and a GIANT CHAINSAW CLAYMORE.  I mean, just a bit, right?

 

Also going to have to go with popular opinion on Power Axes; they're cool as heck (axe?  yes please), but Unwieldy just tosses them out.  You had might as well pay the points for the Power Fist in 90% of scenarios (or Chainfist).

[Just4uCupCake]

SO  two things first my heart just skipped a beat when I thought we could swing powerfists above INT 1 step and then i continued reading and fell out of my chair...

Secondly I run a axe on my DC with 9 men one power sword one power fist and a axe would it be a good suggest to flop an axe for fist?

[Indefragable]

SO two things first my heart just skipped a beat when I thought we could swing powerfists above INT 1 step and then i continued reading and fell out of my chair...

Secondly I run a axe on my DC with 9 men one power sword one power fist and a axe would it be a good suggest to flop an axe for fist?

I am fairly new, so bear that in mind when reading my advice. That being I find Power Axes useless. And Ditti for the Axe version of the Glaive Encarmine. There is NOTHING an unwieldy Axe can do that another weapon can not do better: Power Swords/Mauls/Staves swing faster and PowerFists/ThunderHammers give you way more Strength in addition to being AP2.

 

As some of the posts above point out, it would make sense if an Axe had -1, or -2 to Initiative since then they really would fill the gap between I1 PF/TH and "high" Initiative Power Sword/etc...

 

Bottom line, for me, is that the ONLY person that should ever weild an Axe is Dante.

[Mr Smith]

Ditto on chainswords and rending, if a shuriken gun can rend then a fugkin chainsword should nearly id. Nearly.

 

 

Agreed, I've always believed chainswords should have either a. rending or b. AP of at least 5.  It's silly that with AP values on weapons (since 6th edition?), GW hasn't done anything to recognize the difference between a combat knife and a GIANT CHAINSAW CLAYMORE.  I mean, just a bit, right?

 

Also going to have to go with popular opinion on Power Axes; they're cool as heck (axe?  yes please), but Unwieldy just tosses them out.  You had might as well pay the points for the Power Fist in 90% of scenarios (or Chainfist).

 

I agree completely.  They should definately start at AP 5 to make them different from just punching the guy with your bare fist.  Rending may be a bit powerful (not that that's ever a consideration when writing rules these days), but Shred would make sense as a rule.  Though there's also an arguement to give them Armourbane, as an old piece of background describes them as being used to cut open bulkheads and the like.