3DJutsu Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 Am I correct in assuming that my DW Champ can NOT take a banner? Because I would love for him to hold onto that Deathwing Banner while he stands around poking dude with his halberd. I used to think that if in the codex a wargear upgrade came BEFORE a model upgrade (i.e. "dude can take banner" is above "dude can be made super dude" in the army list) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoic Raptor Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 I don't have the Codex in front of me, but I don't recall a reason that would forbid it. The wording, as I remember, is simply "One terminator may take a banner" or something equally simple and straightforward. It does not replace weapons in any way (I intend for my banner to be borne by a model with TH&SS), so I don't see why the Champion couldn't. Keep in mind that even if you can, that may not be a reason why you should. The Champion does not have the best possible save in the unit and he may be the one you have to remove if you lose in combat - there's really no reason to put it on him when you could instead mount it on a more defensible squad member. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 I think you can have a standard bearer champion. It says one DW terminator can take a banner. Then it says that one DW terminator can be made a champion, replacing all the weapons. Since banner is not a weapon then IMHo it meets requirements. Caveat is that you will have a character std bearer, that can be challenged. All eggs in one basket and all that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dread_Hospitaller Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 The problem in my mind is the deathwing terminator that gets upgraded to a champion becomes a Deathwing Champion, not a Deathwing Terminator, thus doesn't qualify for the banner. He even has a different statline; granted, the main difference is WS 5, but still. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3DJutsu Posted April 22, 2015 Author Share Posted April 22, 2015 I know the negatives all too well, but Rule of Cool gentlemen, and it looks cool in my mind. Will probably be less than cool when he ends up sitting out after the first challenge though. XD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnakeChisler Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 You can upgrade the Ravenwing Apothecary to be the standard bearer its a common tactic so you have 1/2 a chance at Look out Sir The Standard Bearer is not a Character and its just some more wargear its just the order you do it that's important Give the guy the banner then upgrade him to Apothecary/Champion is ok Upgrade the guy to a character then give him a banner is not May seem pedantic but that's rules for you I'd not put it on the champion though in my arm his job is to die while Sammeal murders everything he can Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3DJutsu Posted April 22, 2015 Author Share Posted April 22, 2015 Is there hard an 'ard 'n fast on that or is it something thats just generally accepted? I don't mind either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aura_enchanted Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 This whole concept however I feel would be fixed in a new codex and if it does happen. And then you'd be left without a table legal standard bearer and you'd need to barbarize a perfectly good model to make another one a bearer instead Which would be no fun indeed. So magnetize it if your going to do it, I personally would leave it off the champion anyway just to avoid all the hassle since it doesnt obstruct or other any other terminators loadouts (including an apothecary oddly enough). And that means literally putting it on anyone else would save you from having to butcher models 6 months from now (hypothetically) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoic Raptor Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 Indeed - it looks cooler on the Champion, maybe, but if you're going to put it on a special model then the Apothecary isn't a bad idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 By RAW you could upgrade the standard bearer to a Champion. But I don't see why you'd want to. He becomes a character which isn't neccessarily a good thing as he can be called out in a challenge (and risk the banner); and fluff wise kinda confuses the discrete roll of both. Or am I missing something? Cheers I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 The way I look at it, we're an FAQ or codex away from the clarifying this and making it one upgrade per model only. So that's just me, but to guard against redoing models, I have each model representing each character/upgrade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cactus Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 The sequence of choosing upgrades is irrelevant. What counts is the final result. There are three different models that might be present in a Deathwing Command Squad; Deathwing Terminator, Deathwing Apothecary and Deathwing Champion. Only a Deathwing Terminator may carry a banner. You can upgrade a Deathwing Terminator to be a Deathwing Champion or Deathwing Apothecary but he would no longer be a Deathwing Terminator so he can't have a banner too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 I'm with Cactus on that interpretation; the Rule of Cool is ...well it's cool but shenanigans are not, take care. OP: See what your fellow gamers allow and run with it 2c Stobz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 A Deathwing Terminator may be upgraded to carry a banner. He still remains Deathwing Terminator. Thus as a Deathwing Terminator he may then be upgraded to a Champion. Nothing says he must give up his banner. But he must change his weapons. But my point is still why? Just for 'Look Out Sir'? Cheers I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 We've had this same discussion before about other upgrades, such as the DW Sgt TH/SS issue in earlier FAQs/codexes. Many agreed then that it's not the order it's the end result. In this case a DW termie upgraded to a Champion which then has different stats as well as weapons and is no longer a DW termie as per the unit entry, he cannot then take the banner as a further upgrade. If you go the way others interpret it then you may. I understand the more lenient interpretation and personally would not prevent it but some gamers might have issue with it, and rightly so imho. The 'why you would' is a personal choice thing that I agree would not be optimal at all. BS EDIT: It might be a "Quick Question" but it could be a LONG answer ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3DJutsu Posted April 23, 2015 Author Share Posted April 23, 2015 So magnetize it if your going to do it Oh I magnetize almost everything, ALL THE THINGS!!! If it has an option to swap something out it's probably got a magnet in it. Down to the point where Tactical Marines have one dude per squad with a magnet in his hand for special weapons and a magnetized heavy weapon specialist. All characters have magnets in their hands and at least one if not both shoulders. By golly if my kits come with options I wanna be able to use all those options! Other things are magenetized due to space issues. Take the Techmarine for instance, all the servo arms and the pack are magnetized, this not only allows me to repose the arms as I see fit but allows me to transfer it from the foot slogger to the biker techmarine as I see fit. =D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffJedi Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 Another way to look at it is that each guy has a job in the squad. They never combine multiple roles on the same model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3DJutsu Posted April 23, 2015 Author Share Posted April 23, 2015 Who would get the DW Banner in this instance? DW Champ DW Medic DW Termie w/ CF&PC DW Termie w/ TH&SS DW Termie w/ TH&SS Put it on the tank whos job is to take the nasty shots, give it to the PC Dude, or hand it to the Medic or Champ and put them further in the crosshairs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 I would give it to the PC dude. That's the last one you want to remove in most cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3DJutsu Posted April 23, 2015 Author Share Posted April 23, 2015 I'll keep that in mind when I make my next list, appreciate it. But that particular DWCS isn't very shooty for DWA in, but don't know if I want to spend the points on a DWLRC. But DWCS seems like it'd be better with my IntChap in CC. Ahh, so many choices to make! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 In this case a DW termie upgraded to a Champion which then has different stats as well as weapons and is no longer a DW termie as per the unit entry, he cannot then take the banner as a further upgrade. If you can point to the place in the Codex where it says an upgraded Terminator must give up a banner on becoming a Champion then the above would be correct. As it stands RAW allows it, thanks to the order of upgrade: banner first then Chump upgrade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 Nope, disagree. The so called order you mention doesn't exist, the bullet point options hold equal value and should be applied simultaneously at list building time. With the end result being a Deathwing Terminator holding a Banner. A Deathwing Champion has a different profile to a Deathwing Terminator and is not one RAW; therefore the option for a Deathwing Champion to take a banner does not exist for that model. It has nothing to with giving it back, it simply cannot have one when that option is chosen. We can disagree ad nauseum but that is my interpretation. Are we off topic yet? :D BS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3DJutsu Posted April 23, 2015 Author Share Posted April 23, 2015 I think it's best left to Tourney Organizers and the general mindset of your FLGS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 Agreed, but clarity is important. Whichever way you interpret it. I generally err on the side of caution before permission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyCrow Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 Nope, disagree. The so called order you mention doesn't exist, the bullet point options hold equal value and should be applied simultaneously at list building time. With the end result being a Deathwing Terminator holding a Banner. A Deathwing Champion has a different profile to a Deathwing Terminator and is not one RAW; therefore the option for a Deathwing Champion to take a banner does not exist for that model. It has nothing to with giving it back, it simply cannot have one when that option is chosen. We can disagree ad nauseum but that is my interpretation. Are we off topic yet? BS This is 100% right, every upgrade is simultaneous. And even if they weren't, at the moment a DWT is upgraded to a DWC, he stops becoming a DWT per the unit entry and therefore can't hold the banner anymore. Which is like we have clarifications in the Codexes whether it's a "a ... model may take" or "any model may take". Take the Scout squad entry for example : "Any model may replace his boltgun" compared to "One Scout may replace his boltgun". That means that in the first case, the Sergeant has access to the first option, but he can't take a Missile Launcher or Heavy Bolter I also think the bullet points in the DWCS unit entry infer that it's either or. In each case "One Terminator may..." meaning you choose a single Terminator to receive that upgrade and the other upgrades are to be taken by other Terminators. Otherwise we'd get an and/or proposition. ______ On the topic at hand, in the case this was legal and if your gaming group agrees and if I were to take it on a character, then I would personally take it on the Apothecary. One, because it's the model you'll try to keep ailve up until the Champion dies so everybody gets FnP ! The TH/SS Termies are likely to be there to provide the 3+ Invulnerable save so they'll be on the frontline. I would want the Champion in a challenge, and the Plasma Cannon might fry himself up (unlikely but possible). Now, I wouldn't personnally want to put it on a character, so that there is less incentive for the enemy to position and fire to specifically target that guy out. So the Plasma Cannon seems interesting because with 2+ and FnP he's unlikely to be killed off on his own. That said, I'm not even sure it's possible due to the unit entry and the bullet points as previously :/ So I'd take it on a TH/SS Terminator I believe. On a side note, I really like your Command Squad loadout, it looks very kick ass ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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