New to WH and BAs, escalating army list?

[Paikis]

Hi folks,

 

I'm new to WH40K. I've read the Horus Heresy, and love the modelling side, but have only 1 game under my belt with the old Assault on Black Reach marines that I borrowed from a friend to play. He ended up giving me those marines (They're still painted blue, which will have to change at some point) and I've bought a few other models, but I actually want to play some games, so I've decided to use what I have as a starting force and then build my army up from there. Towards this end I have a couple army lists that I've thrown together, starting at 500pts and going all the way to 1850 (for now).

 

So, here's the 500pt list with an eye towards trying to use models that will be useful even at 1850+ points.

 

Chaplain w/ jump pack (This could also be a captain, Sang Priest or Librarian)

 

5x Tac marines with heavy flamer and a rhino

5x Tac marines with heavy flamer and a rhino

 

5x death company with jump pack and Thunderhammer

 

I wanted to get some Death Company in my army because without the special troops, I might as well just play ultramarines. I did have some questions about this list though.

 

Firstly, at this level of points, is it worth spending such large amounts on death company and transports? They eat up half my points! That could easily be 3 full squads of 10 tacticals, giving me double the bodies, double the shots and double the special weapons.

 

Second, are flamers the weapons to go with in this case? Might I be better off with missile launchers or plasma guns? Range on flamers and meltas seems a bit low. I noticed a lot of BA lists use drop pods to get into range, is it worth using close range special weapons without a pod?

 

Third, how do Whirlwinds do in games? They seem like cheap support options that could sit up the back and rain missiles on things.

 

Cheers!

[Oirghialla]

1 - I think spending that many points on the death company is fine. If you play them aggressively and well you can easily get their points back. I would drop the thunderhammer for a powerfist since the initiative reduction won't come into play that often.

 

Sanguinary priest wouldn't be a good HQ with this list as the death company already have feel no pain.

 

2 - Heavy flamers can be good on tactical marines even without drop pods. I definitely take rhinos if I take flamers without drop pods. Since our rhinos are fast you can really move your guys across the board quickly and get them in flamer range. I also like heavy flamers on tacs since its nice and fluffy (were the only marines that can do it I believe).

 

The biggest deficiency that I see in this list is the lack of anti-tank. You could put a multi-melta on one or both of the tactical squads. The thunderhammer/powerfist helps on the death company, but it's probably not enough on its own.

 

To cut down on cost you could take a unit of 10 tactical marines and combat squad them, which would free up a rhino. Drop one squad with bolters on a point to hold it and then send the others with heavy weapons to the front. So maybe this?

 

10x tactical squad: multi-melta, meltagun, rhino (and sergeant could have a combi-weapon of some sort)

 

3 - I don't have experience with whirlwinds, but that's anti-infantry if I'm not mistaken so something you already have covered.

[Bukimimaru]

I would suggest switching one of the Heavy Flamer/Rhino Tac Squads for:

5x Tac Squad - Multimelta - HeavyBolter Razorback.

Now you have a strong anti-tank gun and the razorback can be run as a Rhino or Razorback to taste.

The DC are pricey, but at this points level they are likely to kick ass, and as you've said, why play BA if your not going to take their special units.

HQ is really whatever flavour you fancy, The Chappy is great to buff the DC, a Librarian would also do well with them.

If you’d rather run a HQ with one of the Tac Squads, a Captain could give them a little more punch or a Priest could make them live a bit longer.

Regarding Whirlwinds, they are generally not that popular with BA players as they are primarily used for anti-infantry, somthing we already have plenty of. Deathcompany do they same job in a much more bad-ass way.

All in all I really like the list you've got, its nice and fluffy, plenty of variety and should be fun to play with.

Next step up points wise I would recommend a Furioso Dreadnaught in a pod or a 5 man Assault squad with meltas in a pod.

Hope this helps, have fun and keep us updated with your progress.

[Paikis]

Don't I need to have a HQ and 2 troops to be allowed to take the DC? Also, I have the thunderhammer there because as far as I can see it's the same as a power fist but it has the concussive rule for an extra 5 points. What could I do with those 5 points that is better? I threw it in there simply because I couldn't see anything better to spend 5 points on.

 

Also the list I have for 750 points adds a 5 man assault squad and another 5 man DC with both having a power fist. Is it preferable to add a Dreadnaught instead?

[Bukimimaru]

Don't I need to have a HQ and 2 troops to be allowed to take the DC? Also, I have the thunderhammer there because as far as I can see it's the same as a power fist but it has the concussive rule for an extra 5 points. What could I do with those 5 points that is better? I threw it in there simply because I couldn't see anything better to spend 5 points on.

Also the list I have for 750 points adds a 5 man assault squad and another 5 man DC with both having a power fist. Is it preferable to add a Dreadnaught instead?

You dont need to take a HQ and 2 troops in order to take DC, but you do need to take a HQ, 2 troop and an enlite chioce in order to run the Baal Strike Force.

Some people think the 5 points extra on the thunderhammer could be better spent giving a melta bomb to a Tac Sgt, but the Hammers are undeniabley cool looking, which is worth 5 points in my book any day.

A 5 man assault squad would be a great addition, but a second Dc might be a little redundat.

As the points go up, you'll want to run your Death Company in squads of 8-10 so that they can still pack a punch after taking a few wounds. I would reccomend adding 3-5 more DC to the current squad rather than making a second smaller unit.

If you do go down the bigger DC route, the Chaplain becomes even more usful as he will have more DC in his unit to buff.

I personally never leave the house without my Furioso Dread "Big Crispin" in a droppod, however, a 5 man assualt squad with Meltas will do a similar job, its just how you prefer to play.

I would suggest at such a low points level more bodies on the table might be a better use of the points, that being said a front armour 13 vehicle like a Furioso can be very hard for your opponents to deal with in smaller games.

[Oirghialla]

I was thinking of using the 5 points in addition to the points you'd save by changing the composition of the tactical squads. The 5 point might be better spent on a dozer blade for the rhino or melta bombs. However, it is only 5 points and I am a sucker for making armies based on looks rather than purely tactics and thunderhammers are cool (the Raphen model with a prosthetic limb is great) .

[Indefragable]

I am pretty fresh myself (8 games total, 3 friendly/learning and 5 in my league). First time Table Top wh40k. I am going to point some things I have learned (often the hard way) in my brief experience so far. Hopefully my just-went-through-that perspective helps you from making the same mistakes.

 

1) Death Company.

Best unit in the codex. 5 Attacks on the Charge with 2 weapons and you a get "free" 33% chance of re-rolling any Wounds suffered. Take 1x PowerFist per 5 DC Marines. As points allow, take in units of 10. Throw in Astorath and you have the cheapest Death Star unit in the game. That's 40+ attacks on the Charge, not even counting PowerFist guys or Astorath. The latter lets DC re-roll both To Hit AND To-Wound on the Charge. You do don't have to do the math to realize how effective this is. The trick is the sheer quantity of Attacks they lay down. Throw in 1-2 Power Swords if you really want to against MEQ but don't go crazy. There are two types of enemies: those who understand what such a DC unit can do and those who don't. The former will concentrate ridiculous fire on this unit to kill it. The latter won't and you will carve him like a turkey. Just remember that offense is their defense and they will die to anti-MEQ pretty easily. Keep them in CQC or behind good cover at all times.

 

2) So far the best advice I have gotten regarding BA is that you are going to take casualties. BA (on TableTop) are NOT Grey Knights or Dark Angels or other such army that is about a few super-quality units. So many of our best techniques are scrappy: suicide Melta-equipped drop pods, etc...embrace this. This does not mean needlessly throwing away points and men but rather understand the role you have designed a unit for and don't overthink it. Case in point: "meltacide:" 5x Assault Marines w/ 2x Melta guns and either dual-wield Inferno pistols or a Combi-Melta on the Sgt all in a Free Drop Lod. That's it. Don't go overboard. This unit is meant to drop in next to the enemy's big bad vehicle and nuke it. They will die the next turn. If they don't it's a bonus and you harass the enemy. Until they die.

 

Your Rhinos are FAST. This means they get you to the enemy faster. Anything else is wasting that speed. They will die. Hopefully they die delivering a nasty unit right into the enemy's jaw.

 

Again, think Death Company: Bezerkers rushing straight into the face of the enemy.

 

3) You can NOT Charge the same turn you Deep Strike/come in from Reserves. This is absolutely VITAL to remember for a stabby army with so many DS options (Drop Pods, Jump Packs, Terminators, etc...). Always being setting up for the Charge but remember it might have to be the next Turn, especially for DS units.

 

3) Don't mimic other Space Marine armies. In a stand-up shooting match, pretty much every other Chapter Tactic will outdo your BA. Embrace the unique attributes of BA (Charging and speed) and cultivate opportunities to use them. Often it is better to counter-Charge then strong yourself out. As the Space Tigers (Imperial Fists) player who mopped the floor with me said: "shooting is easy. Melee is hard."

 

You still need dakka (shooting) but it should be either prepping for assualt or drawing fire for the Assaulters.

 

4) If nothing else, keep synergy in your army no matter the size. This is easier said than done but it is so important for BA. We do not have tricks we can rely on. We need to have a plan and execute it. Even if that plan is just naked aggression (again offense is the best defense).

 

5) did I mention Death Company?

 

Not many specifics in there but hopefully what I have learned so far helps you out.

 

Feel free to hit me up for other sophomore suggestions.

 

[Edits: kept fat fingering the Post button early]

[Indefragable]

Another quick thought: BA characters are AWESOME...IF you use them and support them right.

 

Case in point: Mephiston.

 

This guy is a BEAST

 

...if his psychic powers go off and as long as he does not get hit with a S10 weapon (no Eternal Warrior). As such you can't just run him around on his own, but when you support him properly he can seriously f*** some s*** up.

 

Astorath is meh ok but when you throw him in with Death Company his buffs to them become amazing.

 

The more you understand his abilities the better Dante is. But he costs as much of a Land Raider and will be targeted like one so be smart with how you position and surround him for best effect.

 

Corbulo is underrated. All BA in 6" get +2I on the Charge when near him...now you're lowly Tacticals are striking at I6! The key is to kill the enemy as quickly as possible so that he has less units with which to attack back. Note the theme?

 

If you ever "need" a HQ unit (I have yet to run into that problem) throw in a Sanguinary Priest. Any unit (except Death Company) in the BA or likely allied codex that can benefit from Feel No Pain or + 1WS.

[Paikis]

Thanks for the tips folks. I haven't got any characters to include just yet (200ish points for a 500-750pt army seems a bit steep) but I've changed my lists based on the feedback you guys have given. Keep in mind that I know I am going to be fighting Salamanders and Space Wolves with these lists, as well as possibly Orcs or Chaos.

 

Blood Angels 500pt list:

-HQ-

Chaplain with Jump Pack

-Troops-

10x Tactical marines, combat squad, heavy flamer, multimelta, rhino

-Elites-

7x Death Company, Jump Packs, 1x Power Fist

 

Blood Angels 750pt list:

Baal Strike Force

-HQ-

Chaplain with Jump Pack

-Troops-

10x Tactical marines, combat squad, heavy flamer, flamer, rhino

5x Tactical marines, Lascannon, Razorback w/ TL Lascannon

-Elites-

10x Death Company, Jump Packs, 1x Power Fist, 1x Power Sword

 

Blood Angels 1000pt list:

Baal Strike Force

-HQ-

Astorath

-Troops-

10x Tactical marines, combat squad, heavy flamer, flamer, rhino

5x Tactical marines, Lascannon, Razorback w/ TL Lascannon

-Elites-

10x Death Company, Jump Packs, 1x Power Fist, 2x Power Sword

1x Furisoso Dreadnought, frag cannon, magna-grapple, drop pod

 

Any comments on the lists would be great, especially the 1000pt list because it is the one I will have to buy new models for (Astorath, the dread and pod).

 

Cheers.

 

EDIT: Just to add, how do people feel about Devastators? Something like a 6-8 man squad in a rhino instead of that tac squad w/ lascannon and Razorback, then split the 10 man tac into 2x 5 mans. Might have to drop some toys on the DC or maybe Astorath back to a vanilla Chaplain, but it could work better?

[Bukimimaru]

Blood Angels 500pt list:

-HQ-

Chaplain with Jump Pack

-Troops-

10x Tactical marines, combat squad, heavy flamer, multimelta, rhino

-Elites-

7x Death Company, Jump Packs, 1x Power Fist

 

 

You seem to be missing a second troop choice, are you using the Flesh Tearers FOC?

 

Sadly, you can't take a Heavy flamer and a Multimelta.

A regular flamer and a multi melta is fine, or a Heavy Flamer and a regular Melta is fine, but not both.

 

Aside from that, the other two lists look fine. :)

[Paikis]

You seem to be missing a second troop choice, are you using the Flesh Tearers FOC?

Sadly, you can't take a Heavy flamer and a Multimelta.

A regular flamer and a multi melta is fine, or a Heavy Flamer and a regular Melta is fine, but not both.

Aside from that, the other two lists look fine.

I asked above if I was allowed to take DC without 2 troops, and mis-interpretted the answer to mean that I could just take a single troops choice and be good. Upon consulting the rules book, I do indeed need 2 troops choices.

That leaves me with this:

Baal Strike Force

Chaplain, Jump Pack

5x Tactical Marines, Heavy Flamer, Rhino

5x Tactical Marines, Heavy Flamer, Rhino

5x Death Company, Jump Packs, 1x Thunderhammer

This puts me square on 500 points by my math. I noticed that I'd made a boo-boo with the heavy/special weapons choices but didn't edit it after I'd posted. The downfalls of being new and making a bazillion lists just to try and figure out what you're doing!

I'm not really sure about what to add in order to bring the list up to 1500points, but I do have a Stormraven already painted up, so I might use that empty and fill up the rest on tacticals... or add assault marines. Not sure.

[Indefragable]

Who are you playing? Could be good to research what you are likely to face and build accordingly.

 

For example, It was a shock to see how many tanks my one of my opponents brought for the same point value as my jump pack heavy army.

[Paikis]

Who are you playing? Could be good to research what you are likely to face and build accordingly.

 

For example, It was a shock to see how many tanks my one of my opponents brought for the same point value as my jump pack heavy army.

 

I will be playing against Salamanders and Space Wolves.

 

I know the Space Wolves 500pt army is a Rune Priest, a squad of long fangs and 2 5 man tacticals. Beyond that I'm not sure they've written any lists.

[ScottishDunc]

So I'll add in my 2 cents worth being not new to the game but still fairly new with BA. 

 

1) Dev squads are good.  3 Missile Launchers or Lascannons (whatever you need them for) sitting in the back field on an objective with long ranger fire power are great.  I always took them in 5 man squads with 3 heavy weapons and always did a good job.  However, I have leaned away from them recently in competitive play. 

 

2) Meltacide is great but there is an alternative.  Command Squad with 2 or 3 melta guns and 2 or 3 storm shields in a drop pod are a much better option.  Yes they are more expensive but they have a 3+ inv. save and FNP.  They have claimed a higher ratio or points per cost than the meltacide ever did and they last several turns. 

 

3) Astorath is a beast... if you are running DC and using them as the backbone of your army... TAKE THEM! 

 

4) Consider unbound.  Yes the +I bonus on the BSF is nice but you are an assaulty army, embrace it and drop those TAC squads if your league allows it... I almost never take a bound army anymore and it's working brilliantly for me. 

 

5) Take serious stock into the Chaplains and Librarians (Mephiston included).  I play against a physic heavy Eldar list on a regular basis so focused on no taking a Libby... that was a big mistake.  A couple Libbies or a level 2 Libby does make a difference.   When you are building your army, look at the primarius powers which you will get and build off that.  You're never guaranteed to get the ones you need to roll so remember that. 

 

As you get into the 1500pts, Assault Termies in a Stormraven with the Captain from the starter set is a seriously good combo...almost guaranteed to get the Stormraven into play on turn 2 which means a turn 3 charge if you setup right. 

[Oirghialla]

Against space marine meta initiative 5 gets the most millage, so unless you really can't fit the two troop choices into the BSF I would go with that to boost the death company.

[Bukimimaru]

Against space marine meta initiative 5 gets the most millage, so unless you really can't fit the two troop choices into the BSF I would go with that to boost the death company.

I second this.

[Paikis]

 

Baal Strike Force

Chaplain, Jump Pack

5x Tactical Marines, Heavy Flamer, Rhino

5x Tactical Marines, Heavy Flamer, Rhino

5x Death Company, Jump Packs, 1x Thunderhammer

 

This puts me square on 500 points by my math.

 

 

 

Against space marine meta initiative 5 gets the most millage, so unless you really can't fit the two troop choices into the BSF I would go with that to boost the death company.

I second this.

 

 

I had planned on taking the BSF, as you said, the +1I is golden, especially against marines. The only changes I'm thinking about for the 500pt list is swapping that Thunderhammer for 2 power swords and maybe dropping one of those tactical squads down to scouts and adding a few more bodies to the DC. I know for a fact that one of my opponents doesn't own anything with an AV rating, and the other one isn't planning on fielding armour in a 500pt match, though he could certainly put a dread in.

 

What are people's thoughts on deep striking the DC/Chaplain? Is it better to just run up the board?

[Bukimimaru]

I much prefer starting my DC guys on the table.

They are fast enough to move from cover to cover and tough enough to take small arms fire on the chin.

Plus you dont have to worry about unlucky reserve rolls.