Chaos Marines vs Cultists

[Kaldoth]

So, I'm still sitting here tweaking my IW list. Looking at what I have left to buy, I'm pretty much down to assembling two 20 man strong squads of cultists (Had a topic on conversion ideas for cultist slaves around a week ago). However, looking at it from a financial standpoint, I'm kind of apprehensive to jump on the Cultist bandwagon from a sheer assembly, time, and money-out-of-my-wallet point of view. While I realize that Cultists are an effective mob unit and can make for good tar pits, they do have their drawbacks. One, toughness and armor saves. Two, no fearless without character support. Three, pretty much not good at anything except for dying/distracting. While bodies on the battlefield are definitely a good thing to have, I'm wondering really why people favor taking cultists over Chaos Marines? I feel like there are other units in the codex that are more mobile and make for better tarpits (4-5 Spawn with MoN, anyone?) than cultists would.   

Anyone want to voice their opinions? I mean, unless I'm missing something (which I may very well be! :P) I don't really see taking cultists over marines as that big of a gain. I'm the kind of player that likes his units to have a purpose and be effective at doing something. I've got two units of Spawn to screen, distract, and tarpit, so why bother with the squishy mob of bodies when I can take a more survivable unit that has a better chance of surviving incoming fire and can still tie up an enemy unit or hide an IC just as well? If I'm just looking for units to sit on objectives, wouldn't CSMs be an equally viable choice with their increased stats/saves?

Learn me something! :P

Cheers,

-Kal

[the jeske]

 

While bodies on the battlefield are definitely a good thing to have, I'm wondering really why people favor taking cultists over Chaos Marines?

cultists are cheaper. csm are not fearless either. in 10 man sizeee they cost too much comparing to let say 5 pms. Neither unit does melee right, csm shotier because of the specials, but if someone plays non tournament games [aka mealstrom] it is offten better to concentrate the points in good stuff, then troops of the csm kind. Specialy at 1500 it felt a lot.

[Lucio]

I like having a unit of Cultists on the battlefield, they're either ignored (in which case I can get to roll 40 dice from the autoguns and suddenly panic an opponent), or they soak up a turn or two's worth of firepower and save other more effective units.

[Dallas Drake]

Cultists have never done anything except die for me, I did once have 10 beat up a unit of 5 SM Scouts but meh whatever. I only ever take them as the 2 min troop choices in a CAD or as part of the Helbrute Helcult. I've ran big blobs of them before and I think they're crap.

 

Lately in the Slaughter Cult I've been running 2 x 8 CSMs in Rhinos & I'm quite happy with them tbh as the blood tithe makes them a bit better.

[Prot]

Honestly, I bloody hate cultists outside of the formation variants.

 

They always run on me... always. It's a bad luck thing, but recently I was experimenting with something I haven't done in a looooong time... simple CSM in simple Rhino's. You get 2 ObSec here, and granted neither of these units are going to win you a game. But this experiment I was playing through a league and I could not believe the mileage I was getting out of MSU CSM.... 

 

Now I run one of each. Cultists are disposable poop. They sit on something, and die. Keep them super cheap and hope you get some breathing room from firepower in exchange for their deaths. If you get super duper lucky, park them in terrain and see if they can camp an objective.

 

Otherwise the cost is their only advantage because otherwise they are bad guardsmen. But you find with Chaos all the 'fun' stuff is so expensive, you need to offset that cost with these throw aways.

[Beachymike123]

I personally prefer to take CSM as they're more reliable imho. Better armour, weapons and wargear with higher toughness and strength mean they can hold their own in most cases. Then you have their upgrades - marks and icons can take them from a basic Tactical marine and turn them into an acolyte of a god. Veterans of the Long War is also a great upgrade too, as then you also Hate Space Marines which is always useful if you face them regularly.

Tome as well, my CSM squads have seen so much action they have a story behind them - victory, defeat, a hard fought draw, they've known it all. It is this aspect as a fluff player that ensures their inclusion in my lists, and why the mortals are kept in my Traitor Guard.

Hope this helps, fellow Warsmith. Iron Within, Iron Without

[Kevlarshark]

My other army is Imperial Guard. So I am well used to my troops dieing in droves and running away when they get a fright.

 

I have found the Cultists a bit pricey points wise when taken in squads of 10. They do consistently perform though; I have chucked them into the teeth of almost every horror in the galaxy expecting them to die horribly in one turn...I am generally pleasantly surprised when they die vaguely unpleasantly in two and a half turns instead. My cultist champ has even challenged and killed a Grey knight terminator sergeant!

 

It took me a while, but I have warmed to the cultists; they are a bit too expensive for their abilities and very fragile, but lots of fun to actually use.

[Lord Asvaldir]

I used to use cultists as small units I could throw at objectives as distractions, but with the R&H list now usable I don't see much use for them. Sure CSM might not be the best troop unit, I understand why a lot of people are not big fans of them, but why take cultists when you could instead take an allied R&H detachment with not only significantly cheaper blobs of troops (20 renegade infantry are just 10pts cheaper than 10 cultists), but also a whole lot more options-a good range of special/heavy weapons as well as chaos sigils and vox casters to make sure they don't flee. 

 

Now if you take a R&H allied detachment, you're still forced to fill that CSM CAD troops requirement, and while marines might be more expensive than cultists, 5 marines with a rhino and a melta or plasma gun is still fairly cheap. Take 2 for your troop requirement, and you're under 300pts. Moreover, those troops are going to be more reliable than cultists-better staying power and a special weapon to increase their battlefield presence. 

[Iron Skull Mask]

Another vote for CSM with rhinos. Simply faster, tougher, better weapons and wargear. Unless backed up by a fearless character or Helbrute that make them fearless, cultists are not good enough.

[Targetlock]

I would have thought a MSU of chaos marines to be too fragile to be effective to be honest, but maybe thats just my play style. how do you get the most effect out of them? 

 

Also I haven't tried cultists yet, but i want to as part of my daemonkin, bullet shields, tar pits and willing sacrifices if they flee thanks to the slaughtercult bonus :)

[Lord Asvaldir]

If you have a lot of other fast threats on the board, there's simply too much else occupying your opponent's attention to deal with a small squad of marines. In my current list, I'm using 2 maulerfiends, 2 units of spawn, a lord with a bikers and some hordes of renegade infantry, all more pressing threats than five marines. I do happen to use squads of ten more often though with two special weapons, I simply don't like playing chaos without the namesake unit of the codex included in my army in force. 

[Carrack]

Cultist are so fragile. I recently finished my first squad of 10 to compliment my CSM troops, but have played a few games proxying the squad already. What I have found is that they are not really drawing serious fire away from my other units like I expected. Instead, I get a few turns of storm bolter shooting from rhinos or scattered bolter shots from weakened 2-3 man combat squads and my cultist loose their fervor for the Dark Gods and split.

 

I hope to get a game tonight in with them and will try more diligently to keep my cultist away from sharp objects, stiff breezes, and the offensive firepower of loyalist rhinos.

[Scribe]

If you want to add Helbrutes, the Helcult drives my opponents a bit crazy with 4pt fearless troops running around...

[GreyCrow]

I think that the value of cultists rely more on their strategic (aka list building) than tactical value. Simpy put, Cultist heavy lists can afford to spend more points into elite (cult, haha) units. On the other hand, CSM heavy lists will work a bit more like the standard SM codex where you will rely on the Marines more than the elites.

 

In terms of pure survivability, I would assume that 20 Cultists in cover (ruins) are roughly as survivable as 10 CSM in the open when shot at by small arms fire. Mathhammer says that it takes 90 bolter shots in both cases to dispatch each squad if everything is perfectly statistical. Obviously nothing is perfectly statistical :p

 

So, squads of 10 cultists will amount to squads of 5 CSM, which is not much. The price for 20 cultists wysiwyg from Dark Vengeance (half autoguns+shotgun, half CCW with 2 specials) reaches 110 points. 10 CSM with the cheapest 2 specials, without any mark or extra CCW reaches 150 points. So that's 40 points less per cultist squad. Assuming 2 Troops, that's an extra 80 points in a list. Which may not seem much, but that's extra points to spend for more elite units. It's 2 Terminators, 4 more Berserkers, 3 Plague Marines, an Oblit, two Rhinos, etc.

 

So the cultists will stick in while your pumped up elite will get more work down. Or, picking the CSM as Troops route, you'll get weaker strong units but spread a bit more efficiency around.

 

In essence, the Cultists allow to run more elite units while having a larger number of boots on the ground. It's a chaotic paradox :p

[Fatespinner]

I used my cultists to fantastic effect against Necrons.  A 10-man squad of Warriors was in no way prepared to receive a charge from 15+ cultists, even after overwatch.  With Rage (from MoK), I simply overpowered them with sheer volume of attacks, especially since I had higher initiative.

[Lord Asvaldir]

That's assuming your cultist squad hasn't been mowed down by guass barrages, not something you can necessarily rely on. Yes you can field cultists in large units, but I really feel with renegades as an option now, cultists are not nearly as useful. Either using a renegade infantry squad or mutant rabble, you can have much cheaper troops to really flood the board with mobs of weak infantry. 

[bozo69pd]

If I feel like winning I usually use Belakor. For that point cost I'm going to offset it with 2 10 mans of cultists. if needed he can force a unit to rally by giving them fearless in the spell phase. That means you even get your moral test just in case you some how do make it. Just the fact that my opponent knows I have that option makes him less inclined to just pot shot my cultists because losing 1-2 cultists in cover out of 10 is nothing, losing 1-2 csm out of 5 is a bit more of an issue. If they start coming under heavy fire and I want to keep them alive for an objective or as to not give up first blood hey I toss some shrouded on them for that tastey 2+. All the while my invisible oblits, bikers, maulerfiends, and spawn are going nuts on their army.

 

I figure if you wanted to use CSM in a rhino and kept it in cover and shrouded it if they were trying to crack it open for first blood that would work too, it just comes down to how many points you have laying around. I feel like its easier to LOS the cultists. Also lets say your troop unit gets hit by templates (assuming you prepared for this and spread them their 2" apart) you are more in danger of losing the whole 5 man CSM unit more quickly than the cultists.