Meltacide: AM vs Land Speeder

[Indefragable]

I am pretty sure there are threads running around on this topic but I could not dig them up.

 

When you absolutely, positively need to kill an enemy vehicle at the start the game, what do you use?

 

I have done the meltacide drop pod w/ 5x ASM, 2x Melta and 2x Inferno pistol a few times. At 135pts it's hard to beat.

 

However...

 

...I never considered Land Speeders until one was used against me. And for 90 points you can get one with 2x Multi-Meltas.

 

Why don't more people do the Land Speeder version? (Not a rhetorical question)

 

Compared to the ASM meltacide pod, the LS gets 2x 24" Melta shots. And is cheaper by 45 points. If we don't really care about the unit surviving (hence the -cide part), this seems like a better deal. And if it were to survive, the jink, movement speed, etc... Seems like it would be annoying enough to cause a decent headache.

 

The biggest advantage is that an ASM meltacide pod can Alpha Strike, but depending on the enemy force, and whether you are using Dante, it seems LS could do some serious work.

 

Am I missing something obvious?

[Ming]

The biggest thing is confidence in deployment and turn 1 arrival.  A single pod has to come in on Turn 1...the speeder cannot.  The pod's controls means you don't fret over deviation unless you hit the table edge.  The speeder would have to enter turn 2 if the dice roll favorable.  For a deep striking speeder, deviation can be bad.  If you start on board with the speeder, certainly it can zoom forward; but it won't be in range for the melta bonus on turn 1 unless the opponent also moved forward before you.  Lastly, a 5-man squad with a drop pod can last longer on the field than a landspeeder.  Regardless, it is all about your play style.        

[Remtek]

I think it's 80 points with 2mm not 90. Seems pretty decent numbers wise. Dante has good synergi as well, giving reserve re-roll and only 1 d6 scatter to skimmers.

[LutherMax]

I like land speeders - they've always done well for me when I've used them. I'd run them with multi-melta / assault cannon though.

 

It has a different role to the drop ASM though - as Ming said the advantage there is guaranteed accurate turn 1 deployment.

[GreyCrow]

It all depends whether you want it on Turn 1 or 2 :) The Landspeeders can really do the job right with Turn 1 spent positionning (30" total move for the flat out and the base movement) to have a good place to spring out then throw their 4 meltas.

 

With the pod and Assault Marines, you trade 2 meltas for Turn 1. Rather than 2 Pods who are a bit expensive just for suiciding, I would recommend combining the meltas + a backup long range anti tank.

[Vel'Cona]

Well, in IMO both options have merits.  My thoughts as follows:

 

Landspeeder, x2 Multi-Meltas:

+Cheaper

+Far more mobile (assuming it survives DS)

+Better threat range on Melta rule and in general

+Can Jink if needed

-Fragile

-Eats FA slots

-Not ObjSec

-Turn 2 earliest arrival unless deployed

-Can mishap

 

5 Tactical Marines, 1 Meltagun, 1 Combi-Melta, Drop Pod

+ObjSec (x2 for Pod)

+Turn 1 arrival

+No chance of mishap

+Includes SOME extra anti-infantry firepower (3 Bolters, Storm Bolter)

+Fulfills Troops choices

-More expensive

-Limited range after DS

-Poor (or no) mobility

 

In general, I'd say the Tacticals are better if you need to fill the Troops choices, especially if you're taking other Drop Pod assets (in odd numbers, obviously).  If you just need a bit more fast and efficient anti-tank, the Landspeeders are a great choice, but they really want to be taken with Dante if possible.

[Indefragable]

Thank you all for fleshing things out. I guess the "best" way to use the Melta Speeder is perhaps with the Archangels detachment? That way you can bring it from Reserve on Turn 1, plus with Dante that is one hurt enemy Land Raider.

 

My template army list (http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305751-pod-tank-wall-jump-dc-1850/?do=findComment&comment=4002705) gets synergy out Drop Pods to "pin" the enemy in place for a Vindy blast but a Dante-led, jump-pack heavy list could definitely benefit from fast annoying Melta.

[Lucumon]

I'm not sure "Cheaper" is appropriate when you look at the cost per melta shot.... assuming they die in place after the initial drop if you are going for a Turn 1 Alphastrike.

 

1 Assault squad, 4 melta shots = 135

4 melta shots from 2 land speeders = 160

 

Edit: Also, "cheaper" =/= "better".  For example, if we wanted to make things equal in cost, we'd have one of the speeders with only 1 MM, so they are about the same cost but the speeders only have 3 shots.  Now we have one unit that is more "effective" if your intent is to bust armor.

[Ovidius Incertus]

The 4 melta shots from the LS have twice the range, or more, of the ASM's 4 melta shots (2x melta and 2x infernus), however, for 25 pts more.

[Lucumon]

Why would range matter?

 

With the speeder, you need to get within 12" to be able to use the melta special rule.

 

With the pods, you can drop 9" away and still be able to use the melta special rule. With pod deployment and scatter variance, this is usually not an issue.

[Indefragable]

Why would range matter?

 

With the speeder, you need to get within 12" to be able to use the melta special rule.

 

With the pods, you can drop 9" away and still be able to use the melta special rule. With pod deployment and scatter variance, this is usually not an issue.

MultiMelta range = 24", so 12" with Melta rule. Especially w/ Dante you are guaranteed to melt whatever target you are aiming for.

[Wildfire]

 

5 Tactical Marines, 2 Meltaguns, Drop Pod

How do you get 2 meltaguns in a 5-man tac squad?  Or any tac squad, for that matter?

[Xenith]

 

 

5 Tactical Marines, 2 Meltaguns, Drop Pod Talking about assault marines ;)

+ObjSec (x2 for Pod) Not if you use the Baal Strike Force

 

 

[Jolemai]

 

 

5 Tactical Marines, 2 Meltaguns, Drop Pod

How do you get 2 meltaguns in a 5-man tac squad?  Or any tac squad, for that matter?

 

 

It it's a Tactical Squad, it's a melta gun and combi-melta on the Sergeant. But that's it.

[Wildfire]

It doesn't appear that a combi-melta is what he's referring to, since further down his list he notes that you can get an additional melta shot from a combi-melta.

[Bukimimaru]

Whilst on the topic, why not thow Attack bikes into the mix.

Not got the codex to hand, but I shouldnt think 2 attackbikes would cost much more than a duel Melta Landspeeder or a meltacide squad.

 

Thoughts?

[Indefragable]

Whilst on the topic, why not thow Attack bikes into the mix.

Not got the codex to hand, but I shouldnt think 2 attackbikes would cost much more than a duel Melta Landspeeder or a meltacide squad.

 

Thoughts?

It seems most SM lists I play have at least one MM Attack bike. The biggest difference I see is deployment (how do you get them to that soft rear armor within the First 2 Turns? ASM Drop pod is 2-4 Melta shots within 3"-6" Turn 1. MM LS is 2x MM at 12" on (potentially) Turn 2 (or Turn 1 with Archangels Detachment?) Attack Bike shave to work their way up the board along with the rest of your army. In comparison, the idea of "meltacide" is a unit that can drop in the enemy rear and have a very high probability of melting his precious unit in a single shooting phase. The cide part is because that unit's survival after doing the deed is a bonus.

 

The trade off with Attack bike vs ASM or LS is survivability (T5, W2) for lack of deployment options.

[Lucumon]

110 pts for 2 MM bikes... its a good thought.  One underlying question is: what is the purpose? I think we are talking about an alphastrike in order to pop some armor... and for 135 points for 4 shots I still feel is the best chance.  Yes, bikes and speeders have the range... but there isnt a guarantee of suitability.  I also look at how the rest of my force is composed.... if you are spending more points for the same capability (if measured by the number of chances you have to destroy a vehicle), then you have fewer points to spend elsewhere. (well, duh)

 

Assumptions I make:

1. Things with melta will get priority as a target from vehicles.

2. Bikes and Speeders have the same survivability as a 5 man ASM with a drop pod.

[Jolemai]

If you scale it up further, three MMABs weigh in at 165. For the same slot and at 163 you can have three bikes with two grav guns, a combi-grav, melta bombs and an attached MMAB. This is why you tend not to see them.

 

A single MMAB still appears in many lists due to it being very points efficient, but this is happening less and less.

[Bukimimaru]

 

A single MMAB still appears in many lists due to it being very points efficient, but this is happening less and less.

 

Especialy since our FA slot has so many other great units to fill it up with.

 

I must say 9/10 games I take 2x Meltacide squads and a 5 man Bike squad with 2 grav guns, a combi-grav sgt and a MM attackbike.

[Calnus]

I've been toying with several options for the first turn armor break (which is really what we're going for here) out of my fast attack slot.  I've got built:

-3 Land Speeder Typhoons @ 75 ea.

-3 MM AB @ 65 ea.

-5 ASM, dual Melta - 145 w/Pistols

 

The way i was looking at it, I should actually bring all 3 options in one form or another.  ASM really shine for the suicide drop to get maximum dice for penetrating armor.  Speeders (at least Typhoons rather than MM) have better range, which should translate into survivability.  Attack Bikes are the most versatile, mid range with decent survival and don't forget that they get 9 S5 I5 attacks on the charge in a BSF detachment.  And of course, taking one of each is only going to run you about 500 points or so in your FA, which leaves plenty of army to fill in with at 1500+.

 

Since we're talking about MM speeders instead of the Typhoons I personally prefer, you lose out on the range aspect, and essentially have a short range and 2 mid range options.  But since this is list building, I think you'd want maximum options, which is why I'll be taking all 3 options for my next list, to cover all my range bands and make sure if I can't kill it with one, the others can cover.

[Remtek]

Why would range matter?

 

With the speeder, you need to get within 12" to be able to use the melta special rule.

 

With the pods, you can drop 9" away and still be able to use the melta special rule. With pod deployment and scatter variance, this is usually not an issue.

 

Opponent is making a lot of deployment mistakes if you can usually get within 3 inches of your target.

[Vel'Cona]

Derp.  I was thinking Assault Marines and got my wires crossed.  Let me adjust and re-state!

 

Edit:  There we go, fixed it to cover Tacticals with Melta + Combi-Melta.  Assault Marines are an option too, and they have the upside of a free Drop Pod and can get three Melta shots if you go for the Combi-Melta.  The downside there is you have limited FA slots and they can't be ObjSec.

 

Once again, IMO the best option is Assault Marines if you have the slots to spare and have already covered your Troops choices (especially if you're using Flesh Tearers Strike force), but Tacticals are good if you want to go for ObjSec.  You'll probably want to take more than the minimum two if that's your goal, though.