Successor Chapters and DW/RW

[GreyCrow]

Greetings fellows !

 

So, I'm fleshing out the idea of a custom succeptor chapter for the Dark Angels :) My main armies are existing Chapters/warbands, and I wanted to make something a little different.

 

I do have a question for you lore educated people regarding the Deathwing and Ravenwing equivalents in successor Chapters. The DA Codex say they exist, but are they deployed in a similar fashion as in the Dark Angels Chapter ? I'm going for a very Elite heavy list with the Dark Vengeance models + the expansion kit and an extra Tactical squad, but I was wondering whether such specialist formations would be common in successor Chapters.

 

Besides, if you guys have any link to DA successors to get inspiration from, I'd be glad to hear it ! :)

[Chaplain Lucifer]

All points that yes, they are present. Deathwing and Ravenwing seem reminiscences of the Great Crusade times, where the Legion had those Companies/Chapters. When the Legion split, the Chapters obeyed the Codex Astartes but they kept some of the traditions/companies like the DW and the RW. Since they are used to hunt the Fallen , makes sese every Unforgiven Sucessor employ these two companies.

[GreyCrow]

Thanks ! I was a bit scared this would be considered unfluffy :)

[stuka06]

Thanks ! I was a bit scared this would be considered unfluffy

It's actually far from it. It's one of the more debated facts about the Unforgiven Chapter. All Unforgiven chapters follow the same structure when it comes to their 1st and 2nd companies. So much so, that it is rumored, that the Dark Angels could potentially field a whole Space Marine Legion reminiscient of the Crusade with Azrael as their leader, or even the Lion, the Emperor bless him, once he returns.

[Ania Redfang]

To add another question, how do people typically do the colour schemes for successor chapter DW and RW. I've started an Angels of Redemption army, so it's either go with the half and half scheme or stick to black for RW and bone for DW. Is there any information on how this is done?

Cheers

[Chaplain Lucifer]

No concrete information on how its done. But apparently only the DA have different colours for their 1st and 2nd Companies. The Sucesors don't have to bear that weigth of being 1st Legion and they carve their own path, heraldry wise. IMHO.

[GreyCrow]

No concrete information on how its done. But apparently only the DA have different colours for their 1st and 2nd Companies. The Sucesors don't have to bear that weigth of being 1st Legion and they carve their own path, heraldry wise. IMHO.

 

You make a good point Chaplain :) I can see why successor Chapters wouldn't copy too much the DA heraldry traditions to prevent the rumours of Legion building !

[Stoic Raptor]

If I were to do Angels of Redemption, I would use a half-and-half color scheme for their RW & DW equivalents, incorporating the chapter colors and the traditional bone or black of their predecessors.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

My DW (Belial)

My RW

DW is self explanatory. I went with the standard AoR halved scheme. with RW I decided to keep the bikes black to evoke Ravenwing heritage and to not overwhelm the eye with a halved scheme bike. That way the both the rider and the bike stand out, IMHO:

[Grand Master Belial]

My I suggest the links in my signature for some Successor goodness. Right now we are in the middle of a competition to develop an Unforgiven successor that you are welcome to join. Here is a link to my own fluff out expansion of the AoR

 

As for my own Angels of Redemption, I kept them half and half.

 

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c372/GMBelial/DA%20Minis/IMG_8636.jpg

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c372/GMBelial/Unforgiven/Erosoti.jpg

[GreyCrow]

Nice idea ! I've pledged the Chapter I'm working on ;)

 

Another quick question : would it seem weird for you guys to use the rules for Azrael for the Chapter Master of a successor chapter ? It would seem to me that the Supreme Grand Master of the Dark Angels would be more heroic, experienced, etc over a successor Chapter, but at the same point, all of them are Chapter Masters :p

[Grand Master Belial]

I always found it odd. I would have preferred them use a title over a name to make it easier to use a Successor without needing a counts-as in order to play a successor. Azrael and Sammael are both unique and should not be accessible to Successors and likewise the positions they fill should have an entry in the codex.

 

Likewise, if GW had entries based on position. They could also reflect battles from different time periods and allow a more customized HQ to reflect the different masters.

[Isiah]

Another quick question : would it seem weird for you guys to use the rules for Azrael for the Chapter Master of a successor chapter ? It would seem to me that the Supreme Grand Master of the Dark Angels would be more heroic, experienced, etc over a successor Chapter, but at the same point, all of them are Chapter Masters :p

I'm completely with you on this.

 

For me the DA named character equivalent being used within a Successor environment has always been a bad fit -- despite what GW says in the DA Codex.

 

But what's the alternative: generic non-named versions of named characters? No named characters at all? or just tons of named ones? It's a hard call and some are worse solutions to the one we currently have :)

 

Cheers

I

[Freman Bloodglaive]

My colour scheme (as in my avatar) is the same for all wings. The Angels of Deliverance are a young chapter by the standards of the Unforgiven.

[Stoic Raptor]

would it seem weird for you guys to use the rules for Azrael for the Chapter Master of a successor chapter ? It would seem to me that the Supreme Grand Master of the Dark Angels would be more heroic, experienced, etc over a successor Chapter, but at the same point, all of them are Chapter Masters

 

There shouldn't be any reason why someone who plays a successor chapter should be handicapped by what comes down to aesthetic differences on the table.  For all intents and purposes, a Consecrators army or Guardians of the Covenant are a Dark Angels army for the purposes of all rules and game play.  As such, they shouldn't have to be excluded from using the same statline for characters of equivalent station.

 

And just because Azrael is essentially the commander of a Legion, that doesn't necessarily mean he is the most powerful warrior among them all - he is merely of the highest station.  The only difference between him and any Company Master is merely +1 W and +1 A.  I'd imagine that the commander of an entire Chapter would have a similar increase in prowess over the company commanders below him.

[Grand Master Belial]

My biggest beef is that Azrael is actually over all other Chapter Masters according to the fluff and he is solely armed with a combo-plasma and sword. I am sure there are other successors that would love to arm their Chapter Masters with something other than combi-plasma and a sword. 

[Brother Captain Arkley]

Ok I have thought about this a great deal, as someone who is very invested in my Successor Chapter as you know.

 

Azrael

 

Like others I feel I have no choice, but to use Azrael as the Leader and I do not like it. The Codex needs a generic Chapter Master like the standard Space Marine codex.

I would sell Stobz soul for that... Come to think about it I sold his soul for a Warlord Titan too I hope he has two :). My Leader would probably have an Axe :P and probably a Combi Melta. 

 

Sammael

 

This is my biggest bone of contention, Corvex is so rare I just don't see Successors having them, I know it could be argued that the Vengeance, Absolution and Redemption are 2nd Founding and it is possible they might have one but I still do not like that idea.

 

As GMB knows what I did to my own Successor Chapter I could justify having Corvex but I really do not like it. To that end I would like to see a Generic 2nd Company Captain that can take a Bike yes a standard bike with the option to get plasma talons. Or giving Sammael the bike option that would be easier.

 

 

Deathwing & Ravenwing

 

These I have no issue with its stated that Successors have similar formations, but regarding Deathwing Knights I did mine differently, My DWK are squad leaders of standard squads I might revise this but I like how I did it and it makes me slightly different from the Dark Angels.

 

For my own amusement I have it in my own head that the Grand Master of the Angels of Vengeance is one of the best fighters in the Unforgiven... :) 

[Spaced Hulk]

Whilst I agree that a generic Unforgiven Chapter Master would be brilliant, you can still create an interesting HQ using 'counts as'.

For example, my current Sword Bearer's Supreme Grand Master, Tayln, uses Azrael's rules with this model:

The wrist mounted weapons obviously count as Azrael's combi-weapon, whilst I use the Grey Knight teleporter pack to count as a highly advanced power field generator, to represent the effects of the Lion Helm.

Something else to consider is that the current rules for the Sword of Secrets are basically the same as a master crafted, one handed relic blade. According to Codex:SM, a relic blade can be either a sword or an axe, so I think you could quite reasonably model a 'counts as' Azrael with an axe, or even a mace or a lance, as long as you inform your opponent that you're still using Azzies rules.

Still not as good as the customisation allowed by the vanilla Dex, but it is an option.

Another possibility, of course, is just to use an allied Chapter Master from Codex: Space Marines, but painted in the same scheme as your Unforgiven army. You won't get to use the Inner Circle rules for him, but you can easily explain that with fluff that he's more calculating/less zealous than other Unforgiven Masters.

As for Deathwing/Ravenwing equivalents, I think the Successor Chapters are basically a blank canvas for you to develop as you like. As far as I know, the only ones which have even been named are the Angels of Absolution versions (called the Shriven and the Wardens, iirc?)

For the Sword Bearers, their First Company are called the Penitents, and are constantly under strength (compared to a normal Veteran Company) due to them only having 60 suits of terminator plate and, like their primogenitor, only ever fielding veterans in TDA. In contrast, the Chapter's Second Company, the Revenants, are extremely oversized, almost a Chapter within a Chapter, with their own quite unique appearance and Modus Operandi.

http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag344/mat_at/ETLIII%20Vow2/Completed%20Vow/Better%20Pics/CIMG7017_zps4e5a243d.jpg

http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag344/mat_at/ETL%20Vow%203/44e6f0cd-901c-42e9-afcb-a22f5de35ce5_zps755636df.jpg

Basically I think you should just allow your imagination free reign, and field the models you want to use. These days, with Unbound armies and Allied Detachments, you can easily find rules to represent your ideas however you like.

Hope this helps!

[Bryan Blaire]

On the flip side, my DW and RW equivalents do use a distinct color scheme for each, but for very different reasons than the DW and RW do, namely that they follow mythos from their original home world.

[Phoebus]

To the original question:

 

“Each of the Unforgiven Chapters follows the Dark Angels’ pattern of organisation, including their own corresponding levels of trust. Most have formations similar to the Deathwing and Ravenwing companies, although they are not named as such.”

Excerpt From: Games Workshop. “Codex: Dark Angels (Enhanced Edition).” Games Workshop, 2013. iBooks. https://itun.es/us/oLrXI.l

 

Emphasis mine.

 

Now, the Dark Angels originally had both the Deathwing and the Ravenwing in black armor - almost certainly still an homage to the First Legion, even if the text doesn't explicitly say so this time around.  So that can be used as a departure time for any Successor Chapter, I would think.  On the other hand, if the Dark Angels - the "franchise holders", the parent Chapter - can change their colors over time... well, so can any Successor Chapter.

 

Where the latter conversation is concerned, I think a Grand Master of the Inner Circle template would be incredibly useful.  Two extra pages with a generic stat sheet and a list of rules and equipment options that could range from a Chapter Master to a Deathwing- or Ravenwing-equivalent Grand Master wouldn't kill Codex-writing efforts.