Reworking Sonic Blasters

[Monkeychunks]

Hi all, 
Following a discussion on /tg/ about the weapon, a suggestion was posted which I found quite fluffy and certainly an interesting way to take the weapon. 

Sonic Blaster- Range 24", SX, AP4, Salvo 2/3, Ignore Cover, Sensory Assault 
Sensory Assault- A weapon with this special rule has a Strength equal to the target's Initiative value. It gains the Shred special rule against models with Acute Senses. 

It changes the gun from an upgraded Bolter into a hard anti-Eldar weapon, at the expense of utility against Orks, Tau and Necron. It remains virtually unchanged against the majority of Imperial armies. It works like an odd version of a Grav-weapon, where effectiveness varies wildly depending on the target. 
Considering the loss of power against Orks, Tau and Necrons, it would likely be a free swap for Noise Marines rather than the +3pts it is currently. Therefore Noise Marines become a balance of Bolters, Sonic Blasters and Blastmasters depending on the needs of the situation. 

Just something I thought was quite fun.

[Aspiringchaoschampion]

On one hand i like this idea but on the other i like the thought of them getting a rule similar to the kakaphoni

[totgeboren]

I like it!

[Strazhakov]

I like this as well. Its not that the Eldar would have any right to complain.

[Slaanbull]

How would they function against vehicles? And would you let the doom siren, blastmaster and the symphony of pain entries stay unchanged?

I'd rather give the volley of shots some kind of bonus for how many successful hits there is on a unit, but I'm stumped as to how I would reflect that change ruleswise.

[Sheesh Mode]

Why change the sonic at all? It is a more effective bolter that works admirably at clearing out lightly armored infantry. 

[Leif Bearclaw]

Still Salvo, so it's still worthless. All Sonics need is to go back to the dual Assault/Heavy profile. Maybe come automatically instead of Bolters too. That'd give you fearless, ultra grit I5 Marines with substantial dakka for the same price as a Necron Deathmark. I'd be quite happy with that deal. Even if they stay +3 points, they'd still be worth taking, unlike these days, where the 4 other NMs exist to catch bullets for the Blastmaster.

[Carrack]

I'm going to sharpshoot your good idea for a minute. One round of shooting from a small squad of these sonic blasters will do a good amount of damage to meq, better to geq, which is good and what I feel the weapon is designed for. However, they will utterly destroy daemon princes and greater daemons, I don't know what the initiative of Tyranid MC are but maybe them too, and I do not feel that that is the intended role for the sonic blaster.

 

Maybe a cap on the strength of the weapon?

[GreyCrow]

Still Salvo, so it's still worthless. All Sonics need is to go back to the dual Assault/Heavy profile. Maybe come automatically instead of Bolters too. That'd give you fearless, ultra grit I5 Marines with substantial dakka for the same price as a Necron Deathmark. I'd be quite happy with that deal. Even if they stay +3 points, they'd still be worth taking, unlike these days, where the 4 other NMs exist to catch bullets for the Blastmaster.

 

Wait a minute. Sonic Blasters are far from sucky !

 

With a unit that has blasters, blastmaster and doom siren, you have a very versatile support weapon that can hang back and fire at low quality infantry or move closer and kill high quality infantry. You might lose a few shots for one turn if you decide to move, but as a counter assault support with true grit and all the sonic stuff it's a very decent unit.

 

Or you can specialize either a fire support unit with Blasters and Master or an Assault unit with true grit, Doom Siren and quality CCW on the Champion.

 

Salvos are meant to be more efficient when stationnary, much like Grav Guns. I laugh silently at people moving around with Grav Guns before they realize it's utterly useless.

[Aspiringchaoschampion]

I agree with Greycrow noise marines are fine as they are

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

With a unit that has blasters, blastmaster and doom siren, you have a very versatile support weapon that can hang back and fire at low quality infantry or move closer and kill high quality infantry. You might lose a few shots for one turn if you decide to move, but as a counter assault support with true grit and all the sonic stuff it's a very decent unit.

 

No you don't. You have a completely schizophrenic unit that doesn't know what it wants to do and is pretty pricey to boot. You have three different range brackets of weapons, so whatever you do, unless the enemy considerately stands with 8" some of that firepower is going to waste (let alone if you want to try assaulting with them, those sonics become worse than worthless then). If you move the squad it's firepower potential turns to garbage, with the Sonics losing range and RoF, and the BM becoming worse than a heavy bolter. They even suck as counter assault, because again, Salvo does not gel with units that wish to assault.

 

 

Or you can specialize either a fire support unit with Blasters and Master or an Assault unit with true grit, Doom Siren and quality CCW on the Champion.

 

Almost right, except again, the SBs aren't worth the resin they're cast from. A unit packing them is only 100% effective at ranges less than 24", which is too short for an infantry fire support unit, especially one that cannot move while retaining that firepower. Again, unless your opponent is feeding you his army, you either have to advance to bring the Sonic's in range, making the Blastmaster awful, or you stay at range, using the very good BM stationary profile, and waste the points you spent on those Sonics.

 

Yes NMs work OK as an assault unit, thought the limited weapon selection (only 1 siren, no melta) isn't ideal. However, if they could use the Sonic's as Assault 2 on the move (like they used to), they would be better at this as well.

 

Which is why there are 2 kinds of NM squad worth using. Bolter armed Blastmaster shields (the best version imo). Or Ultra Grit assault force, which suffer from the same delivery problems as the majority of CSM assault units (Berserkers, Possessed etc.).

 

 

Salvos are meant to be more efficient when stationnary, much like Grav Guns. I laugh silently at people moving around with Grav Guns before they realize it's utterly useless.

 

And that's why Salvo sucks. There's a reason why you tend to only see Salvo on relentless stuff (like grav bikers), as they can ignore the stupid movement rules. It is the only weapon type left that drops your range when you move. If GW had left this rule on Rapid Fire weapons, than Salvo would certainly seem less bad. It especially bad for weapons retconned to Salvo, as they also lost the ability to be used as Assault weapons, and allow units to charge after firing them. However, as it stands, if a NM want to advance up field, his bolter is straight up better than the iconic sonic weaponry. All because the Salvo rule is dreck of the highest order.

 

 

I agree with Greycrow noise marines are fine as they are

Ignoring the fact that isn't what Greycrow said, I agree. Noise Marines don't suck (apart from being MEQs in an edition that doesn't really give MEQs many breaks), in fact they're the foundation of my own Chaos army. However Sonic Blasters do, and NMs would be better if the Blasters were better. However, the option presented in the OP does not address their major failing, which remains the Salvo rule.

[frostbite]

How to fix the Sonic Blaster? Make it Range 24", S4 Ap5, Assault 2, Ignores Cover for +3pts. That or give it its old Assault 2 or Heavy 3.

Salvo is a strong contender for the worst rule in the game.

[GreyCrow]

No you don't. You have a completely schizophrenic unit that doesn't know what it wants to do and is pretty pricey to boot. You have three different range brackets of weapons, so whatever you do, unless the enemy considerately stands with 8" some of that firepower is going to waste (let alone if you want to try assaulting with them, those sonics become worse than worthless then). If you move the squad it's firepower potential turns to garbage, with the Sonics losing range and RoF, and the BM becoming worse than a heavy bolter. They even suck as counter assault, because again, Salvo does not gel with units that wish to assault.

What you see as schrizophrenic, I see as versatile, so I guess it's more a question of point of view over absolute quality of a unit Besides, I don't generally find my lists sufficiently tight for points that I can't afford to purchase a 15 points upgrade (Doom Siren in this case) that I won't get to use because I'll remain outside of the template range, or 9 points (for 3 Blasters) that I won't shoot if I decide to assault.

Almost right, except again, the SBs aren't worth the resin they're cast from. A unit packing them is only 100% effective at ranges less than 24", which is too short for an infantry fire support unit, especially one that cannot move while retaining that firepower. Again, unless your opponent is feeding you his army, you either have to advance to bring the Sonic's in range, making the Blastmaster awful, or you stay at range, using the very good BM stationary profile, and waste the points you spent on those Sonics.

Yes NMs work OK as an assault unit, thought the limited weapon selection (only 1 siren, no melta) isn't ideal. However, if they could use the Sonic's as Assault 2 on the move (like they used to), they would be better at this as well.

Which is why there are 2 kinds of NM squad worth using. Bolter armed Blastmaster shields (the best version imo). Or Ultra Grit assault force, which suffer from the same delivery problems as the majority of CSM assault units (Berserkers, Possessed etc.).

Your first paragraph is exactly the key why Sonic Blasters are so awesome. Of course the opponent is trying to mitigate the effectiveness of your weapon, so are you going to do the same for his I mean, if you know a suicide melta squad in a pod is going to come, obviously you're going to bubble warp around your valuable stuff to mitigate his effectiveness It's like saying suicide melta pods are worthless unless the opponent is nice enough to pave you a way to blow up his tanks

Moving the Noise Marines up in the first turn, they might not shoot except two measly shots from the blastmaster, but one of two things is going to happen : he knows it will be a threat to his weak infantry in cover, so he'll move out of range ; or he won't see it coming and get some casualties. And this is where Noise Marines shine, because you can funnel small troops movements with your 24" threat bubble regardless of cover or not, so that the units are easy pickings.

People on the B&C tend to analyze units by their kill potential or the quality of their dakka, which is fine for filthy xenos, but for PA armies we have to think a lot more about the utility each unit brings. And fleshing small Troops out of cover if they flee from the range is a very nice thing to have !

And that's why Salvo sucks. There's a reason why you tend to only see Salvo on relentless stuff (like grav bikers), as they can ignore the stupid movement rules. It is the only weapon type left that drops your range when you move. If GW had left this rule on Rapid Fire weapons, than Salvo would certainly seem less bad. It especially bad for weapons retconned to Salvo, as they also lost the ability to be used as Assault weapons, and allow units to charge after firing them. However, as it stands, if a NM want to advance up field, his bolter is straight up better than the iconic sonic weaponry. All because the Salvo rule is dreck of the highest order.

To be fair, the only reason we see Salvo on Relentless platform is because it's easy to make work and because people are trying to optimize their units rather than their battlefield tactics. I've had battles against Scars with Grav and Podded Ultras with TiggyCenturion support and the extra shots aren't as scary as they sound if you look to counter them.

Salvo weapons should be looked at Heavy Weapons with the extra option of not firing snapshots to get stragglers if they happen to be at half range. They aren't meant to be mobile assault weapons, except on Relentless platforms obviously.

I agree with you that if you take your Noise Marines *only* to advance up the board and ubergrit + doom siren, then it's not worth taking the Sonic Blasters obviously. But there's probably more effective units for that role, namely plasma Havocs or Chosen, or the same units in their flamer variants

I can definitely see Noise Marines work getting into position in T1 if you're going first, or staying stationnary if going 2nd, so that they bring their area denial bubble up and the opponent has to work around it.

TL;DR : Salvo doesn't suck when it's played as a Heavy Weapon if you agree to lose a turn positioning ! It might not be what you're looking for, but it's definitely not total crap either.

Example : In my Raven Guard army, I have a fire support Tactical Squad with a Grav Gun and a comby grav. Either on foot or in a Las/Plas Razorback. I can guarantee you that even if I don't get to fire the first turn, the enemy elite gets really worried moving within a 36" diameter radius of them (2*18").

Sonic Blasters work the same, but against light infantry and in an 48" diameter bubble. That's what they're good for, and only for that. For mobile weapons, plasmas are better.

[Leif Bearclaw]

What you see as schrizophrenic, I see as versatile, so I guess it's more a question of point of view over absolute quality of a unit Besides, I don't generally find my lists sufficiently tight for points that I can't afford to purchase a 15 points upgrade (Doom Siren in this case) that I won't get to use because I'll remain outside of the template range, or 9 points (for 3 Blasters) that I won't shoot if I decide to assault.

Whereas I always tend to have more stuff worth taking than points available. This encourages a very streamlined, ruthless approach to list building, where everything that I bother with has to fulfil a function in the majority of games to justify the points spent. Sticking generalist, jack of all trades stuff in just leaves me with less of what I need in most circumstances (can you tell I started out with Eldar ?).

Your first paragraph is exactly the key why Sonic Blasters are so awesome. Of course the opponent is trying to mitigate the effectiveness of your weapon, so are you going to do the same for his I mean, if you know a suicide melta squad in a pod is going to come, obviously you're going to bubble warp around your valuable stuff to mitigate his effectiveness It's like saying suicide melta pods are worthless unless the opponent is nice enough to pave you a way to blow up his tanks

I don't think you have understood my point. To make the Sonic Blasters usable when the enemy isn't within 24", you need to sacrifice the firepower of the Blastmaster, which is the far deadlier (and more expensive) weapon. This is a silly decision, because you should really be aiming to maximise the number of those delicious S8 AP3 ignore cover templates, rather than maybe being able to shoot some bolter-analogues next turn, So you might as well have the points and leave the rest of the squad with bolters (not to mention the doom siren).

No it isn't. Pod assault works because you can put your dudes where they're needed to maximise their killing potential. Whereas to get the best out of a fully geared up NM squad, the opponent has to choose to leave his guys within 8", otherwise something loses out, either you can't fire the siren or all the other guns use their worse profiles. It literally requires your opponent to make mistakes, which can't be relied on.

Moving the Noise Marines up in the first turn, they might not shoot except two measly shots from the blastmaster, but one of two things is going to happen : he knows it will be a threat to his weak infantry in cover, so he'll move out of range ; or he won't see it coming and get some casualties. And this is where Noise Marines shine, because you can funnel small troops movements with your 24" threat bubble regardless of cover or not, so that the units are easy pickings.

People on the B&C tend to analyze units by their kill potential or the quality of their dakka, which is fine for filthy xenos, but for PA armies we have to think a lot more about the utility each unit brings. And fleshing small Troops out of cover if they flee from the range is a very nice thing to have !

Or he'll just shoot your Noise Marines instead? As they're only packing S4 AP5, it's only really going to worry Guard and Orks (as practically everything else will get a save) and neither of those are going to retreat in the face of (what is essentially) bolter fire. You just seem to overestimate how scary Sonic Blasters are.

What utility are you talking about here? For a unit to have utility in this game it has to do one of 3 things; facilitate the killing of the enemy (either directly or with buffs), take/hold objectives or be big and scary to distract the opponent. Really good units do all three. Sonic Blaster Noise Marines do none of these. If you advance to take objectives, your range gets nerfed, or if you're holding a home objective you're probably out of ranegm wasting the blasters. NMs just aren't scary enough to function as an effective distraction, they can put out some decent firepower (when stationary), true, but they can't really take it in return (being somewhat expensive MEQs).

To be fair, the only reason we see Salvo on Relentless platform is because it's easy to make work and because people are trying to optimize their units rather than their battlefield tactics. I've had battles against Scars with Grav and Podded Ultras with TiggyCenturion support and the extra shots aren't as scary as they sound if you look to counter them.

Salvo weapons should be looked at Heavy Weapons with the extra option of not firing snapshots to get stragglers if they happen to be at half range. They aren't meant to be mobile assault weapons, except on Relentless platforms obviously.

So you admit that relentless makes Salvo objectively better, hence it is sub-par to bother with non-Relentless Salvo? In this game, unit optimisation is one of the key tactics, well designed, efficient lists are simply more effective. It's not the extra shot that really matter here (though they're nice to have), it's the fact the Relentless avoids the stupid range nerf which makes them decent, so your grav guns can rely on 18" range rather than 9".

If GW hadn't made weapons that previously were mobile assault weapons (Sonic Blasters, Psycannon, Splinter Cannon) Salvo, thus neutering them, your argument would be more solid. Giving Salvo to something like an autocannon or heavy bolter wouldn't really matter, because they're already heavy weapons. When salvo is given to short ranged 'assault-style' weaponry, it makes the range halving hit even harder, plus of course forbidding charging.

TL;DR : Salvo doesn't suck when it's played as a Heavy Weapon if you agree to lose a turn positioning ! It might not be what you're looking for, but it's definitely not total crap either.

You seem to be ignoring 2 things here, heavy weapons get snap shots (so you don't lose range and can still fire), and Salvo weaponry tends to be short ranged to begin with. So Heavy weapons actually offer more utility than Salvo on the move, because their range isn't nerfed. Heavy weaponry with a 24" range on infantry models aren't very good, because their threat range is so limited (eg. Multi Meltas). If you really think Salvo doesn't suck, go try and convince the Grey Knight sub forum that psycannon on power armoured bodies are a good idea. Plus, losing at least one turn (more than one if you find yourself out of range in later turns) firing is a bad move, that's longer under the enemy's guns, losing your models, with no option to respond. It's handing the initiative of the game to the opponent, which is the opposite of what you want.

Example : In my Raven Guard army, I have a fire support Tactical Squad with a Grav Gun and a comby grav. Either on foot or in a Las/Plas Razorback. I can guarantee you that even if I don't get to fire the first turn, the enemy elite gets really worried moving within a 36" diameter radius of them (2*18").

Sonic Blasters work the same, but against light infantry and in an 48" diameter bubble. That's what they're good for, and only for that. For mobile weapons, plasmas are better.

Really? That's not a very threatening unit, especially if you put it in a transport. Especially when you consider the 9" range on the guns (thanks to the salvo range nerf), that unit's chucking out 4 grav shots on the move. That's just not very scary, even to Terminators. Plasma guns in this example would be objectively better, same volume of fire and AP, greater anti vehicle potential thanks to S7 and a longer threat range. All because Salvo sucks, hard.

[frostbite]

Gotta agree with Leif here. Salvo is a crappy rule because it halves your range and prevents charging. In the case of the Sonic Blaster, even simply changing its type to Rapid Fire would improve it, as it would just become a Bolter with Ignores Cover.

[GreyCrow]

Gotta agree with Leif here. Salvo is a crappy rule because it halves your range and prevents charging. In the case of the Sonic Blaster, even simply changing its type to Rapid Fire would improve it, as it would just become a Bolter with Ignores Cover.

 

Rapid Fire would be good if the Noise Marines with Sonic Blasters were designed as a mainly advancing unit pumping shots on the way. Unfortunately, it's not the case in this edition. That doesn't make them bad (I can understand that the changes feel like a nerf for players who used them differently in previous codexes though). Right now, I feel that they are meant as a unit meant to provide distance firepower against infantry in cover, with the option of moving forward to take on more elite units. The fact that they're FAQd to allow a Blasmaster for 5 guys is pretty awesome in its own. A pinning, ignores cover Mini Plasma is quite cool.

 

I think they're a good tactical addition to the Codex, because the main focus of many units is to advance on the board and get into melee, while the Noise Marines offer a nice fire support. At 5 men, with the extra CCW, the Blasmaster, the Doom Siren and the Blasters, it's a 153 points unit that makes a mockery of cover regardless of whether you're light or heavy infantry, regardless of range and regardless of whether you moved or not, and that alone is a great utility. Obviously, you might lose one turn of shooting out of 5 minimum, but that's well worth it if they can be placed in a more advantageous position Turn 1. They might even be ran without losing too much of their firepower !

[frostbite]

 

Gotta agree with Leif here. Salvo is a crappy rule because it halves your range and prevents charging. In the case of the Sonic Blaster, even simply changing its type to Rapid Fire would improve it, as it would just become a Bolter with Ignores Cover.

 

Rapid Fire would be good if the Noise Marines with Sonic Blasters were designed as a mainly advancing unit pumping shots on the way. Unfortunately, it's not the case in this edition. That doesn't make them bad (I can understand that the changes feel like a nerf for players who used them differently in previous codexes though). Right now, I feel that they are meant as a unit meant to provide distance firepower against infantry in cover, with the option of moving forward to take on more elite units. The fact that they're FAQd to allow a Blasmaster for 5 guys is pretty awesome in its own. A pinning, ignores cover Mini Plasma is quite cool.

 

I think they're a good tactical addition to the Codex, because the main focus of many units is to advance on the board and get into melee, while the Noise Marines offer a nice fire support. At 5 men, with the extra CCW, the Blasmaster, the Doom Siren and the Blasters, it's a 153 points unit that makes a mockery of cover regardless of whether you're light or heavy infantry, regardless of range and regardless of whether you moved or not, and that alone is a great utility. Obviously, you might lose one turn of shooting out of 5 minimum, but that's well worth it if they can be placed in a more advantageous position Turn 1. They might even be ran without losing too much of their firepower !

 

 

Well we can agree on one thing at least; the Blastmaster is a great gun. As for the Sonic Blasters, I think it boils down to this: you claim that the SB adds versatility to the unit, whereas I'm convinced that it takes utility away. I feel it detracts from the unit because of the reduced range when you move and the upgrade cost and the fact that if you're moving forward to get the SBs in range, that great big 30pt Blastmaster isn't being used to its greatest potential.

As for acting as a stationary firebase with the SBs, I'm not convinced of that due to the 24" range. I don't think you can guarantee being in range of a valid target every turn with the SBs, forcing you to waste turns moving the NM squad into range. For instance, lets assume you find that your NMs are around 30" away from their target. If they had bolters, you could move 6" forward and be in range on the same turn. With the Sonic Blasters, you move 6" and your range drops to 12", so you have to wait till the next turn after that to be in range (all assuming the opponent doesn't move the target unit).

Now I know that example is fairly simplistic, but I think it illustrates the point I'm trying to make; the range nerf from Salvo forces you to spend multiple turns getting your very expensive 5 man unit into a position where it can do anything useful.

 

Personally, I reckon the best use for NMs is a 5 man squad with bolters and a single Blastmaster, as, lets be honest, that S8 Ap3 Ignores Cover blast is pretty sweet!

[Sheesh Mode]

In regards to Sonic weaponry, the three different weapons fit primarily into three different categories. Heavy Support/ Infantry Support/ Infantry Clearance. The Blast Master is a missile launcher on steroids. Same statistic profile, but with a small blast, ignores cover, and pinning. It is also capable of firing on the move, which makes it nearly as useful - if not more - depending on the target. 

 

The Doom Siren is simply infantry clearance. We have all seen what it can do, and most of us have used it. Either equip it for a close combat focused squad of Noise Marines. Or, as I prefer, include it in a minimum sized unit along with a blast master to have on hand in case you feel the need to be aggressive or your rhino is destroyed and enemy assault units are close by. 

 

The Sonic Blaster does not synergize well with any of these things. In my opinion it is entirely suited for fighting hordes. Whether they are guants, guardsmen, or orks is largely irrelevant, but for hordes none the less. The blast master's blast is too small, and the doom siren is too expensive to be truly reliable for clearing out enemy infantry. But when you are pumping out 27 ignores cover bolter shots it does not matter how the enemy is spaced or whether they have stealth or shrouded. 

 

It is understandable that people do not typically see utility of this weapon because swarms of infantry are not as common as mechanized armies or elite infantry. Yet the capabilities of the weapon remain. It is not particularly expensive and a single unit of noise marines equipped in this fashion are fully capable of providing the necessary anti-infantry power. 

 

The weapons are not an issue ladies and gentlemen, but how they are used on the wider battle field. 

[Xenith]

New profile

 

R18" S3 AP5 Assault 4, rending?

 

We dont want to get too complex with new rules and such. Althoug hthis seems to be the way GW is going...

[the jeske]

for 10 pts per gun?

[Xenith]

for 10 pts per gun?

 

Nah, not that much. Maybe putting the base noise marine with blaster at 25 / 26 pts / model.

 

125pts for 20 S3 rending shots isn't too far out there in terms of rules.

[the jeske]

20pts its assault 3. 25pts if assault 4.

[totgeboren]

I think all that needs to be done to make the sonic blaster a worthwhile upgrade is to give it range 36" instead of 24".

It might need to go up in cost, but currently it's pretty pointless so perhaps not. You are still paying lots of points for something that is good at killing light infantry. Considering the cost of other light infantry killers like Wyverns and biovores, I think they would be fine like that (because salvo sucks, but it does separate Noise Marines from all the other "advance-shoot-assault" units you could otherwise take).

[Dallas Drake]

As others have hit on, the problem is Salvo. It's a horrible rule to have on infantry/troops, especially when Bolters are already a good option.

 

Remove Salvo and it is worth taking: 24" S4 AP5 Assault 2, Ignores cover.

[totgeboren]

As others have hit on, the problem is Salvo. It's a horrible rule to have on infantry/troops, especially when Bolters are already a good option.

 

Remove Salvo and it is worth taking: 24" S4 AP5 Assault 2, Ignores cover.

 

Well as I pointed out "salvo sucks", which is the reason I think range 36" for no increase in points could be justified. Especially since it allows you to fire 2 shots at 18" when moving, so it's more than a glorified boltgun when moving around the battlefield, and the stationary range 36" would mean you would get some synergy with the Blastmaster.

They would probably be pretty powerful with just that range increase, since it's a lot of dakka we are talking about.

 

Making it assault just means we have yet another one of those 'run-towards-the-enemy' chaos units, and I personally feel we have enough of those and then some. I would rather that Noise Marines contributed to some role other units don't already do well enough.