New toys

[Aethernitas]

Especially since the Chapter was created during the Heresy and includes a membership, and war host designed around that time frame.

 

Also didn't Malcador psychically grunt and push a forgeworld moon all the way from Mars to Titan during this time frame? Would there not be STC's on such a planet?

 

The numbers may be limited, but aside from 'rarity' which is already established with Relic rules, I don't think it should be off limits to any loyal Astartes!!!

 

I understand why GKs don't need Knights, Titans, artillery or most of the tanks but why are there no Contemptor Dreads or Storm Eagles for GKs? Like with the Thunderhawk they could just tweak some minor rules, swap out some weapons and don't even provide sculpts for those but leave it to the player conversions. I know GW doesn't want that but imo FW is no so strict about it.

[Gentlemanloser]

Or Storm Shields, Meltaguns (for Daemon Engines, we have Melta Bombs...), Storm Talons, Whirlwinds, etc.

 

There's really no logical justification.

 

Edit: Or Centurion with Force Drills. ;)

[HardCoil]

They seem to have updated it to a clearer wording (the word "any" is not in the OP here, so I'm assuming):

 

A Deimos Pattern Vindicator Tank Destroyer may be taken as a Heavy Support choice for any Space Marines Faction Codex (including Dark Angels, Blood Angels, etc,.) as well as the Chaos Space Marines Faction.

 

That pretty clearly means every Space Marine, no matter what specific chapter/codex, so incl. GK.

 

Edit: Maybe this is in response to the Eldar crazyness? Or just to sell more models. Let's hope it spreads to other FW stuff, the new Contemptor is worded so it's only specific chapters.

[Prot]

Yea, to me I honestly can't see anything preventing GK from taking this.

[HardCoil]

Yeah, it's probably just to avoid a long specific list like in the Xiphon rules, where every Codex is mentioned. That's going to end up pretty long.

[VVolf]

The list would be long but clear. As it is now, I thought it was meant to include Grey Knights but an argument can be made for and against that.

 

For this reason, I won't buy one till it is expressly permitted because someone will eventually challenge me on it.

 

I understand that certain vehicles are forbidden for obscure fluff reasons but its frustrating they won't let me use them in a legal detachment anyway. More money for me I suppose.

[Aethernitas]

Or Storm Shields, Meltaguns (for Daemon Engines, we have Melta Bombs...), Storm Talons, Whirlwinds, etc.

There's really no logical justification.

Edit: Or Centurion with Force Drills.

Or that of course. I was only talking FW cuz otherwise the list gets too long.

The creative decision to not give Grey KNIGHTS shields when even their most iconic character has one I will never understand. Yure they would be op right now with sanctuary but sanctuary only buffs our invul-safes since our last codex incarnation. I really don't get it.

[Leif Bearclaw]

Or Storm Shields, Meltaguns (for Daemon Engines, we have Melta Bombs...), Storm Talons, Whirlwinds, etc.

There's really no logical justification.

Edit: Or Centurion with Force Drills.

Or that of course. I was only talking FW cuz otherwise the list gets too long.

The creative decision to not give Grey KNIGHTS shields when even their most iconic character has one I will never understand. Yure they would be op right now with sanctuary but sanctuary only buffs our invul-safes since our last codex incarnation. I really don't get it.

I thought the lack of Strom Shields came about because of two reasons. Inertia, as halberds have been the weapon most iconincally associated with GKs, and Halberds are not traditionally pared with shields. Or from a crunch perspective, to avoid an OP combo with the old Nemesis Force Sword. At least with Sanctuary, you need to invoke the power, under the old book you'd just need to be in assault for a 2++.

[Gentlemanloser]

Could have easily capped the I save at 3++ to stop sword + shield. But even then it would only be in cc unlike a shadow field.

[jeffersonian000]

The reason why we lack Storm Shields is because GW failed to include any in our model kits. Why doesn't matter. Failing to correct the oversight does matter.

 

SJ

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Guys we're not getting the new Vindicator. It quite clearly is an upgrade to an existing Vindicator, which we don't have. At all. Anywhere in Heavy. 

 

As an Allied vehicle, it has some potential (it's a straight upgrade over tri-las Predator). I still think Sicarians are better though. 

[HardCoil]

Can you point to where it says it's an upgrade?  I simply can't find it: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/D/Deimos_Vindicator_Laser_Destroyer.pdf

 

The list would be long but clear. As it is now, I thought it was meant to include Grey Knights but an argument can be made for and against that.
 

 

Yeah, but the new wording also works when new chapter codices come out. Otherwise they'll have to keep revising them.

[Ishagu]

Grey Knights are indeed considered a Space Marine faction.

 

Unless Forgeworld come back with a reply saying the Grey Knights can't use this Tank, then it is certainly usable.

 

In truth this would be a massive boost to gk. I can see people being cautious about buying one and painting it silver, but I don't think FW would screw GK players over by suddenly going back on their rules like this.

 

It's so annoyingly vague.

Two of these could easily be brought in a GK army with an allied Nemesis Strike Force detachment, and the long range woes would be alleviated...

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

Space Marine faction

 

No we're not.

 

Faction: Space Marines consists entirely of units taken from a single Codex.  Codex: Space Marines.

 

It does not include Dark Angels, Blood Angels or Grey Knights.

 

If FW wish the unit to be available to more Codexes, they failed at rule writing. ;)

[Prot]

They mention the other space marines, followed by ETC.

 

I'd say the opposite is true. Grey Knights are space marines unless otherwise noted. It's legal. I'd take it. They are a chapter? Of Eldar? No. They ARE Space Marines. Done deal. 

 

Look I have no intent of taking that tank, and unless FW comes out and says GK can't have it, I think it'd be super poor sportsmanship to deny a GK player of using this.

 

As a side note, these incredible units coming out of Forgeworld (not sure about this one) are why more and more tournies are outlawing the. But at the end of the day FW wants to sell them. So you can bet your bottom dollar GK are indeed the 666th "Space Marine Chapter" capable of accessing this device.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

It's not poor sportsmanship. It's how it works both RAW and RAI. 

 

RAW, nothing in the PDF says we get it. Etc is too vague. 

 

RAI, we don't get Vindicators normally, why would we suddenly get one? It makes no sense whatsoever. The Xiphon is an oddity, but no other Imperial force has one yet, so as brand new addition, its fine. Moreover, the XIphon explictly is for Grey Knights, says so right in its rules. 

[Prot]

It's not poor sportsmanship. It's how it works both RAW and RAI. 

 

RAW, nothing in the PDF says we get it. Etc is too vague. 

 

RAI, we don't get Vindicators normally, why would we suddenly get one? It makes no sense whatsoever. The Xiphon is an oddity, but no other Imperial force has one yet, so as brand new addition, its fine. Moreover, the XIphon explictly is for Grey Knights, says so right in its rules. 

 

Nothing says you don't get it. In fact you are a Space Marine chapter. YOU get it. You can deny yourself the luxury all you want. I won't rob you of that self punishment. By all means, punish yourself for not having the exact verbiage you require. I won't stop you. 

 

But no one here, anyone that I know of, would deny that a Grey Knight is a space marine chapter. There is nothing else you list that prevents someone (A Grey Knight player specifically from taking this.).  Until Forgeworld says otherwise, this is by all means allowed by your chapter.  If you need someone from Foregworld to give you specific permission, ask them. But I don't see the requirement... in the least. You may have a funny sword, and a pointy helmet, but you are a space marine... not an Ork, not a Guardsman. There is nothing but your own self imposed restriction stopping you from taking this unit.

 

I won't debate this any further than this post because it becomes redundant and circular. Just know that I (as well as anyone I know in my area that plays competitively) would be allowed to include this unit in the 666th Space Marine chapter known as Grey Knights.  I'm out on this subject until current 'official' verbiage changes. 

[Dread]

Not denied since it was added in the CSM dex as a space marine chapter. So since we have to suffer from that statement, then we should reap from it's pleasures too. This is just my opinion however, not meant for argument.

[Ishagu]

There are existing precedents that support GK being a Space Marine faction. For example: the "preferred enemy space marines" rule veterans of the long war get also applies to Grey Knights.

 

Interestingly, since the Xiphon is also usable and clearly stated, I wouldn't be surprised if this is fully intended and simply marks increased support from FW towards the Grey Knights.

 

I read somewhere recently that FW want to allow their models to be fielded by more forces, so it fits.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Nothing says you don't get it. In fact you are a Space Marine chapter. YOU get it. You can deny yourself the luxury all you want. I won't rob you of that self punishment. By all means, punish yourself for not having the exact verbiage you require. I won't stop you. 

 

Only in name. Nothing the 666th does is even remotely similar to a codex chapter. Our ranks, organisation, specialists, support etc is all based off Marine designs and wargear, but used in a radically different way. 

But no one here, anyone that I know of, would deny that a Grey Knight is a space marine chapter. There is nothing else you list that prevents someone (A Grey Knight player specifically from taking this.).  Until Forgeworld says otherwise, this is by all means allowed by your chapter.  If you need someone from Foregworld to give you specific permission, ask them. But I don't see the requirement... in the least. You may have a funny sword, and a pointy helmet, but you are a space marine... not an Ork, not a Guardsman. There is nothing but your own self imposed restriction stopping you from taking this unit.

 

My point is, you have no leg to stand on if an opponent asks if its legal. Because it's not. We don't have Vindicators as an army list option, only Marines and CSM do (hence they have access). And I can gurantee in a tournament setting, it's out (Forge World usually is by default anyway, but that's a seperate issue). 

I won't debate this any further than this post because it becomes redundant and circular. Just know that I (as well as anyone I know in my area that plays competitively) would be allowed to include this unit in the 666th Space Marine chapter known as Grey Knights.  I'm out on this subject until current 'official' verbiage changes. 

 

Exactly. This requires official sanction, otherwise there is no justification for it. 

Not denied since it was added in the CSM dex as a space marine chapter. So since we have to suffer from that statement, then we should reap from it's pleasures too. This is just my opinion however, not meant for argument.

 

The problem with that argument is that CSM have Vindicators, and in fact have most loyalist vehicle types available to them. So, considering this is a Legion era Vindicator variant, it's perfectly reasonable to see it in CSM armies as a Legion relic. We don't have that legacy at all. Otherwise we'd have Contemptor Dreads, or other such things. GW have arbitrarily and repeatedly drawn a line in the sand between us and 'normal' Astartes. 

[PureShield]

Looks amazing though!

[Ishagu]

 

Nothing says you don't get it. In fact you are a Space Marine chapter. YOU get it. You can deny yourself the luxury all you want. I won't rob you of that self punishment. By all means, punish yourself for not having the exact verbiage you require. I won't stop you.

 

Only in name. Nothing the 666th does is even remotely similar to a codex chapter. Our ranks, organisation, specialists, support etc is all based off Marine designs and wargear, but used in a radically different way.

But no one here, anyone that I know of, would deny that a Grey Knight is a space marine chapter. There is nothing else you list that prevents someone (A Grey Knight player specifically from taking this.). Until Forgeworld says otherwise, this is by all means allowed by your chapter. If you need someone from Foregworld to give you specific permission, ask them. But I don't see the requirement... in the least. You may have a funny sword, and a pointy helmet, but you are a space marine... not an Ork, not a Guardsman. There is nothing but your own self imposed restriction stopping you from taking this unit.

 

My point is, you have no leg to stand on if an opponent asks if its legal. Because it's not. We don't have Vindicators as an army list option, only Marines and CSM do (hence they have access). And I can gurantee in a tournament setting, it's out (Forge World usually is by default anyway, but that's a seperate issue).

I won't debate this any further than this post because it becomes redundant and circular. Just know that I (as well as anyone I know in my area that plays competitively) would be allowed to include this unit in the 666th Space Marine chapter known as Grey Knights. I'm out on this subject until current 'official' verbiage changes.

 

Exactly. This requires official sanction, otherwise there is no justification for it.

Not denied since it was added in the CSM dex as a space marine chapter. So since we have to suffer from that statement, then we should reap from it's pleasures too. This is just my opinion however, not meant for argument.

 

The problem with that argument is that CSM have Vindicators, and in fact have most loyalist vehicle types available to them. So, considering this is a Legion era Vindicator variant, it's perfectly reasonable to see it in CSM armies as a Legion relic. We don't have that legacy at all. Otherwise we'd have Contemptor Dreads, or other such things. GW have arbitrarily and repeatedly drawn a line in the sand between us and 'normal' Astartes.

Read my above reply.

Grey Knights are 100% a space marine chapter, and they could have got hold of this vehicle at some point between 30 and 40k. I wouldn't use fluff as a reason they couldn't field it as they can already field the Xiphon - another Heresy Era vehicle. I believe this is fully intended for GK use.

 

Unless FW comes out with a new set of rules, as it stands we can field this tank.

[Aethernitas]

"A Deimos Pattern Vindicator Tank Destroyer may be taken as a Heavy Support choice for any Space

Marines Faction Codex (including Dark Angels, Blood Angels, etc,.) as well as the Chaos Space Marines Faction."

 

I have no idea how this can be missinterpreted. The way it's written it clearly includes Grey Knights as it goes out of it's way to clarify that it means every subtype of Space Marine Factions like Dark Angels, Blood Angels and so on and so forth.

 

Fluffwise I hate it and it makes no sense whatsoever but thats on FW and they normally do amazing fluff work so I shall forgive them.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Grey Knights are 100% a space marine chapter,

 

Which is only technically true. We don't follow the codex, we don't use Legionary structures either, and our founding was done in total secrecy. Officially we don't exist. 

 and they could have got hold of this vehicle at some point between 30 and 40k.

 

It's not about 'getting ahold of it'. Deimos is a Forge moon, it has schematics of every concievable Imperial vehicle, weapon, equipment etc. The Grey Knights simply don't partake in siege situations. Our vehicle roster is small because it's primarily intended to deliver knights into the fray and provide support. We don't use battle tanks or siege weaponry at all, because our tactical and strategic needs don't ever require them. Notice how our entire vehicle roster is transports (excepting Dreadnoughts, who are transports of a different kind) ? There is a very good reason for that. We're not a conventional Chapter, expected to fight all kinds of battles. We're daemon hunters, and our strength is always our battle brothers. Vindicators don't banish Daemons, Grey Knights do. Hence, our needs in vehicles are 'get as many knights into the fight as fast as possible'. 

I wouldn't use fluff as a reason they couldn't field it as they can already field the Xiphon - another Heresy Era vehicle. I believe this is fully intended for GK use.

 

The Xiphon is a superiority fighter. It's a lot easier to concieve of, because our strike cruisers would have their own fighter screens (as would our battle barges). Having our own dedicated air support to back up Ravens and Thunderhawks is perfectly fine. Heresy era isn't really the issue, it's needs. 

Unless FW comes out with a new set of rules, as it stands we can field this tank. 

 

No, until FW clarifies that we have access, we don't. 'Etc' is merely implication, it's not explicit. 

I have no idea how this can be missinterpreted. The way it's written it clearly includes Grey Knights as it goes out of it's way to clarify that it means every subtype of Space Marine Factions like Dark Angels, Blood Angels and so on and so forth.

 

Fluffwise I hate it and it makes no sense whatsoever but thats on FW and they normally do amazing fluff work so I shall forgive them.

 

It doesn't clearly include us. Otherwise, like with the Xiphon, we'd be clearly stated as having access. 

 

On a practical note, it adds some sorely needed anti-tank firepower for us, but I don't know if it's better than a DK. 

[Gentlemanloser]

The isusse is;

Space Marine Faction Codex

Is a *very* specific term, defined in the BRB.

The unalterable RAW is that a 'Faction' is the name of the Codex a unit is taken from. Codex: Space Marine is the only army book that contains units from Faction: Space Marines.

That other Codexes might contain Space Marine units (and be subjected to Prefered Enemy, or other rules) is a seperate issue.

Faction is a defined term.

And it does not allow Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, or Grey Knights to obtain this unit.

RD;

The Grey Knights are a Space Maine Chapter, and are just as much Space Marines as the Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Red Hunter, or any other Codex Adherent or Divergent Chapter.

RAW and RAI.