Reclusiarch Darius Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 The Grey Knights are a Space Maine Chapter, and are just as much Space Marines as the Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Red Hunter, or any other Codex Adherent or Divergent Chapter. RAW and RAI. Yeah I know we are for most rules purposes (Veterans of the Long War, that stupid Tau formation etc), but in lore terms we're not Space Marines. We're Grey Knights. We have the same 19 implants, but our gene-seed and neophyte requirements are completely different. Not to mention our Chapter is only in name, we're neither Legion descended nor do we in any way follow the Codex. On top of that, due to every GK being a powerful psyker before they're trained and augmented, we outclass Marines completely. The only conventional Marine who would stand a chance against a Grey Knight is a Librarian, and even then it's a close-run contest (because we're trained and outfitted to resist psychic powers and warp effects, hence the 'Aegis' and gear like the warding stave). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306611-new-toys/page/3/#findComment-4021400 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 but in lore terms we're not Space Marines We most certianly are. ;) Chapter 666 of the Adeptus Astartes. We have the same 19 implants The process of turning a normal human into a Space Marine. Check! but our gene-seed and neophyte requirements are completely different. As is every other Chapter. Being based on a unique Gene-seed. Ours is just pure from the source, and not second generation Primarch gene-seed. we're neither Legion descended nor do we in any way follow the Codex Nor are the Exorcists. Neither are a requirement to be a Space Marine Chapter. The only conventional Marine who would stand a chance against a Grey Knight is a Librarian Logan. and even then it's a close-run contest GKGM got beheaded before he could draw his weapon... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306611-new-toys/page/3/#findComment-4021401 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Blackwood Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 The only conventional Marine who would stand a chance against a Grey Knight is a Librarian Logan Grimnar is not a Librarian Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306611-new-toys/page/3/#findComment-4021407 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 GK are definitely space marines. They aren't a codex chapter, but are 100% a Space Marine faction. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306611-new-toys/page/3/#findComment-4021441 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 GK are definitely space marines. They aren't a codex chapter, but are 100% a Space Marine faction. Perhaps GML is getting confused. Faction: Space Marines does not equal Space Marine factions... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306611-new-toys/page/3/#findComment-4021444 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 Space Wolves are just as divergent as Grey Knights... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306611-new-toys/page/3/#findComment-4021451 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 GW seems to think "faction" means like groups. They have noted the Armies of Man as a "faction", Space Marines as a "faction", Eldar as a "faction", Orks as a "faction", etc.. Players on the other hand seem to be stuck on Codex = Faction. I wonder which is right? GW, or Players? I'm pretty sure it's GW that's right on this. Just say'n. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306611-new-toys/page/3/#findComment-4021462 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 No book at work. Would anyone be so kind as to C&P the section form the BRB on Faction? I'm pretty sure it states that a minis Faction is the Codex it is taken from. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306611-new-toys/page/3/#findComment-4021468 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 No book at work. Would anyone be so kind as to C&P the section form the BRB on Faction? I'm pretty sure it states that a minis Faction is the Codex it is taken from. Under the heading "Army List Entries" When using such a codex, each unit’s Faction is the same as its codex title. Forexample, all units in Codex: Space Marines belong to the Space Marines Faction, whilst all units in Codex: Chaos Daemons belong to the Chaos Daemons Faction. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306611-new-toys/page/3/#findComment-4021473 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 Thanks! Got hold of access myself as well. Armies of the Imperium are a collection of different factions on the Ally chart. Faction: Space Marine, is and can only be, units taken from Codex: Space Marines. There are many references to this in the BRB; In the case of Codex supplements, the Faction of all units described in that publication is the same as the Codex In these instances, the unit's Faction is determined by whichever codex it was chosen from the Faction of all the units described in a Codex is the same as the codex's title. There are zero references to a Faction of Space Marines that is anything greater than units taken from Codex: Space Marines. Even the Armies of the Imperium state; units that have the following Factions Of which Space Marine is a distinct entity. Edit; units from Codex: Grey Knights are Faction: Grey Knights. They are not part of Faction: Space Marines. The Armies of the Imperium is not a Faction, it is a collection of different Factions for the purpose of the Ally level matrix. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306611-new-toys/page/3/#findComment-4021477 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Templar 307th Comp. Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 Black Templars aren't a codex chapter either, and they can field it. The Codex Astartes is usually used when the battle brothers run out of toilet paper aboard a BT vessel. So Codex adherence is not a requirement. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306611-new-toys/page/3/#findComment-4021479 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 The rules say ALL SPACE MARINE FACTIONS, then lists 3 seperate books and says etc. This couldn't be more clear - if you are a codex focused on any form of Space Marines you can take the vehicle. The rules aren't taking about Chapters from Codex: Space Marines, they are taking about ALL space marines in general. Is anyone trying to tell me that a Grey Knight ISN'T a Space Marine!? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306611-new-toys/page/3/#findComment-4021482 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 The actual rule is; any Space Marines Faction Codex That *is* the issue. There is only a single Space Marine Faction Codex. Codex: Space Marines. Space Marines Faction *does not exist* in any other form. It might be the intention to give this to a select amount of Codexes, which contain Space Marine units, but then you'd have to agree this also includes Codex: Legion of the Damned. Which are not part of the Armies of the Imperium, and are unable to field this vehicle in any Battle Forged army. Which makes little sense. And would put the RAI of giving this vehicle to any Marine Codex into doubt. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306611-new-toys/page/3/#findComment-4021492 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 Well, the only option is for someone to email forgeworld for an answer. To me any doubt is erased when the rule mentions books outside of the Vanilla codex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306611-new-toys/page/3/#findComment-4021509 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 We don't have Vindicators though. All the other Marine armies do (including traitors). That's why is perfectly reasonable for them to have it, but not us. Same goes for Contemptors, or Storm Eagles etc. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306611-new-toys/page/3/#findComment-4021534 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 Legion of the Damned don't have Vindicators either. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306611-new-toys/page/3/#findComment-4021542 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 Legion of the Damned don't have Vindicators either. They also lack a HS slot so this is a moot point. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306611-new-toys/page/3/#findComment-4021543 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 Not if they're allowed to take it becuase they're Space Marines... Potentially, they could use it. But in an unbound list only. Which really is a nod towards the RAI *not* being any Codex that has Marine Units in it. It also makes little sense for the Legion to have a non spectral Tank. But it would give them a unit to have on board so they don't auto lose turn 1... Edit: In before Codex: Legion of the Damned doesn't count as a Codex... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306611-new-toys/page/3/#findComment-4021545 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 I have LotD Rhinos, Land Raiders, and a Dreadnought, from back when they were a 2nd Ed army. Just Say'n. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306611-new-toys/page/3/#findComment-4021551 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Dawnstar Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 I decided to send my own inquiry to Forge World about this and received a response essentially saying that the issue would be forwarded to those who produce the FAQs for future corrections to the document and that for now we were best off coming to a decision within our own gaming groups or playing unbound or with allies to sidestep the issue. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306611-new-toys/page/3/#findComment-4021563 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HardCoil Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 I think you people have already spent 1000 times more joules thinking about this than FW and GW combined Edit: And by you I mean we. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306611-new-toys/page/3/#findComment-4021581 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethernitas Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 Well, the only option is for someone to email forgeworld for an answer. Agreed. Threads like this make me question my sanity. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306611-new-toys/page/3/#findComment-4021713 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steel Angel Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 Answer from Forgeworld. " Hi, Thank you for your email. Yes it can be taken by Grey Knights. If there is anything further we can do to assist you, or if you have any queries about the information we have requested or provided, please telephone us.Regards, Forge World If you have a query about your order, please call 0115 900 4995 within the UK011 44 115 900 4995 from the US and Canada00 44 115 900 4995 from much of Europe ' Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306611-new-toys/page/3/#findComment-4021722 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 I knew it... I didn't need the confirmation but it has become painfully obvious some people did. lol Funny thing is, I doubt I'll take it! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306611-new-toys/page/3/#findComment-4021724 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 Awww man, this completely changes Grey Knights! With two of these awesome tanks supporting our Dreadknights from the back, out army becomes A LOT more versatile and competitive. Double Nemesis Strike Force: -Libby -Termies -Termies -Stormraven -Dreadknight -Dreadknight -Libby -Termies/Strikes -Vindicator Tank Destroyer -Vindicator Tank Destroyer Our long range, high strength, low ap woes are no more! *Happy Dance* I'm about to buy two of these tanks for my Ultras... Guys, I'm selling some very well painted Daemons on Ebay if anyone wants to take them off my hands. The proceeds are going straight into more of these tanks :-P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306611-new-toys/page/3/#findComment-4021734 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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