Fighting Eldar: Challenge Accepted

[Reclusiarch Darius]

So now the actual codex is out, speculation has ended and we can get into the meat of what new Eldar mean for us. The good news is that not a lot has changed. The bad news is that not a lot has changed, and the things that did change are...interesting.

Firstly, yes Eldar of course got their own 'Formations for days' detachment. It's called 'Craftworld Warhost'. Everything runs 6" automatically. Pretty cool right? Now, here is the general gist. Firstly, the best Core choice by far is the Windrider formation (Saim-Hann players world over are rejoicing)

Windrider formation:

- First, you take a Jetseer. Or Eldrad. Or an Autarch if you're one of those weird people who don't use psychic HQ's and play the master psychic race. Farseers are Mastery 3 now by default, and they officially get Sanctic along with Runes of Fate,, Divination and Telepathy. All the tools a master psyker needs to dominate (note they still Peril on dubs because they're not us when casting Sanctic though).

- Secondly, you take a Jetcouncil. The one big change is that now they're a Brotherhood of Psykers, and the squad size determines their Mastery Level. It's a little janky, but provided you can keep them alive, they can generate 2-3 charges pretty reliably and still do all the things the old Jetcouncil did (kill tanks in melee, be annoyingly hard to murder, meatshield your Jetseer etc). Warlocks get Sanctic now, as well as Runes of Battle.

- Thirdly, you take 3x 10-elf Jetbike squadrons, with scatter lasers on all. Oh, and you can upgrade to Warlocks still, for dirt cheap extra powers and warp charge built into the squadron.

- Lastly, you take a Vyper, and hide it in Reserves or behind something to prevent First Blood auto-loss. As taxes go, it's a pretty minor one.

So already, before any Command/Auxliary fun begins (and oh is there some fun to be had), we have a pretty significant problem. A horde of 30 jetbikes spamming 40x S6 shots apiece with 12" move and 2D6 Assault move, Jink, and the usual T4 3+ statline for jetbikes. On top of that, we have a classic Jetcouncil+Jetseer shaped problem moving around, not dying and being annoying.

Jetbikes: Melee is the answer, because we'll never win a shootout with them. Unlike DE jetbikes, these have T4 and 3+ armour, so incinerators won't cut it. 'Perfect Timing' and psycannons is decent, but unless you proc a bunch of Rends you do risk them making a lot of armour saves and only losing a few elves, which is heartbreaking at best and game loss potentially. Getting into melee can take many forms.

- Unlike Tau, Eldar do not have serious Interceptor+Skyfire, so Raven+Purifier is doable and the Raven will blow Eldar Flyers out of the sky provided it gets the first shot in (their lances murder it likewise if they get the first shot in). Also, the Raven's missiles are one of our few ranged weapons that reliably hurt Wraithknights, same for it's nose twin melta and its turret twin lascannon. Note that if you see the Crimson Death formation in their list, do not try to Raven. Bad things will happen (see below).

- Dreadknights of course are our classic workhorse. Eldar do have the tools to dismantle them though, and they will eat buckets of S6 before getting into melee with those jetbikes (they can catch them though). Luckily, T6 and 2+ armour means the Eldar will probably need to commit Dragons or Allied Blasterborn to get the kill (especially if 'Sanctuary' is up). Wraithknights will do work, but their one-shot is only on a 6 and they only do 2 hits at best per WK. Wraithguard can also kill DK's, but they're a bit more specialised and expensive then Dragons. So, if you are taking DK's, multiples are a must. 2 at minimum, 3-4 ideally.

- Interceptors are ideal for a number of reasons. Firstly, a reasonably kitted squad is still under 160pts, but will tear through jetbikes and Wave Serpents in melee no problems. Again, like DK's, they're also fast enough to catch jetbikes. MSU is the way to go of course, to dilute their massive firepower advantage. You will lose squads on the approach, so like DK's, multiples are most effective. I'd be looking at 20, ideally 30, split into combat squads.

Jetcouncil: The good news is that witchblades still don't ignore armour saves, although they do wound reliably of course like always. So, DK's will still rip them to shreds without too much hassle (he will eat a lot of Fleshbane wounds though, but that's why he has 2+ armour). Denying is going to be key, which is yet another reason why going MSU is ideal, you generate more warp charge to Deny their buffs (we stop their hexes pretty easily due to 'Aegis' and Librarians with staves). Interceptors will also kill them, but you might have to commit 2 or 3 squads to ensure the job, because their invul saves are annoyingly strong. Don't forget 'Hammerhand' before you charge of course, it's functionally the same as 'Force' but you wound more reliably (obviously try for 'Force' if you fail because you'll still wound on 4's and ID on any failed save).

Shooting either of them isn't viable. At all. T4 and 3+ armour, backed up by Jink and in the case of Jetcouncil 4+ invul means so much of your firepower will just plink off. Even 'Cleansing Flame' is severely reduced by all that, and not to mention it's a psychic witchfire which means all their bonuses trigger and they will have acres of warp charge to through at a Denial as well.

So, now that we've dealt with the Windrider formation (no really, it's Core), what about Command and Auxilary?

Command formations (0-3 per Core):

- Autarch, Yriel, Special Snowflake Ranger dude, Eldrad. Meh

- 2x Farseers (one of which can be Eldrad anyway), another Warlock conclave. This is for the guy who wants to run double Jetcouncil. The other main draw is that psykers in this formation have to stay together, but you get powers off on a 3+ instead of a 4+ like normal.

- Avatar, Phoenix Lord

So, not bad by any means, but we've seen all this stuff before. The Phoenix Lords are interesting, but they're pretty pricey and will still fall to DK's or nemesis hammer to the face. Not 'Force' though, they're all EW now, and 2+ armour for all means you need AP2 to cut through. Avatar is a joke against us, because our anti-Daemon stuff triggers versus him. 'Banishment' , also unlike the Wraithknight or Phoenix Lords he's not an Eternal Warrior, so gatling psilencer and 'Force' can still randomly one-shot him haha.

Now, what of Auxilary? As with the Necron version, you get 1-12 total choices, of any combination of the following;

- 10x Rangers. Mkay

- Crimson Death: 3x Crimson Hunters. Squadrons for Eldar finally. The bonuses are pretty stupid. On top of their two bright lances and pulse laser apiece, they also get Preferred Enemy: Flyers and FMC's. So needless to say, don't bring a Raven if you see this in their list. They'll one-shot it. Also, they're stupidly hard to kill when they Jink, because they have 4+ cover saves by default (mmmmmmmm balanced) and they re-roll cover saves when they Jink. Yeesh. So unless you can ignore cover, and Skyfire, you are unlikely to even chip HP off them.

- Engines of Vaul: Unit of Night Spinners, Fire Prisms or Falcons. Again, squadrons, and in the case of Falcons if you take them as a 3-strong squad, they gain no scatter Deepstrike. Yeah. The hell. Oh, and that's not a formation bonus, that's default (even in CAD). Fire Prisms and Night Spinners work as you'd expect.

- Avenger Shrine: 3x units of Dire Avengers. It's got some cool bonuses (once per game they get +1 shot, they're BS5 always, and they re-roll Leadership stuff), but the Core Windrider formation already has anti-infantry covered. It's a shame.

- Aspect Host: 3x Aspect squads, any type, any combination. So, this is where your 3x Dragon squads will be taken. You then get +1 to either WS or BS for the entire formation. Pretty absurd with Dragons at BS5, or WS5 Banshees/Scorpions.

- Wraith Construct: One Wraith thing (Hemlock fighter which is a Spiritseer taped to a Flyer which has D-blasts), Wraithlord or Wraithknight. No prizes for guessing what Eldar players will take with this Auxilary.

- Spirit Host: Spiritseer, 3x units of Wraithguard, Wraithlord as tax and a Wraithknight as creamy goodness. Spiritseer (who gets Sanctic, Battle and Telepathy for powers, and Mastery 2, so basically a super-Warlock) grants re-rolls to 1's to hit, on any enemy unit within 12" of him for Wraith units, so that's already good before formation bonuses kick in. Which are insane. Firstly, Battle Focus on everything. Ie, suddenly Wraith units lose the only thing missing from them compared to all other Eldar units. Secondly, re-rolls to hit any enemy unit within 18" of the Spiritseer.

So, the standouts are the Aspect Host (for BS5 Dragons), Crimson Death (for stupidly tough Crimson Hunters with anti-Flyer/FMC bonuses), Wraith Construct (WK spam dur), and Spirit Host. Honourable mention to Engines of Vaul, because Falcons will eat Interceptor like champs and no scatter means you can land a pretty perfect Dragon alpha strike on people Turn 2 or 3. No WWP needed.

- Aspect Host: Dragons, but at BS5. Deal with them like you would normally. Kill their ride (get psycannons into rear arc), kill them with incinerators or 'Cleansing Flame'.

- Crimson Death: Don't bring a Raven. They're probably the strongest argument yet that we need to go triple Sicarian with Marine Allies, camping our Aegis Line and Comms Array (4+ cover will dampen the effect of all that bright lance and pulse laser on their HP). Hydras are too easy to kill, and they completely eclipse all other Flyers (even Vendettas lose to them, too tough and more firepower).

- Spirit Host: Er yeah...if they load into those Falcons I mentioned earlier, you're in serious trouble.

- Wraithknights: Only 2x wraithcannon shots each, and their other guns aren't worth worrying about (standard Eldar heavy weapon options). So, taking multiple DK's is the way to go. Nothing else we have can wound them reliably, or seal the deal in melee. Our characters get mushed by S8 attacks. Draigo could do it, but he costs nearly as much and is vulnerable to getting focused to death.

Regarding Serpents, they've been nerfed from 'stupid sexy gunboat of doom' to 'decent transport with decent guns'. The Serpent Shield is now one-use (check), only range 24" (check, still Ignores Cover (sigh) and causes Strikedown at Assault 2D6 and S6 (le sigh). Expect them to blow their load early with this, as it isn't useful much late game (the 'reduce pens to glances' ability isn't terribly relevant given the meta).

That's my initial impressions. I'm sure as time goes on, we'll see other stuff emerge. But that would be the things I would focus on for now as greatest threat potential.

[Prot]

Thanks for the insightful write up.

 

Crimson Death sticks out as nearly automatic. It's got a huge angle on the annoying Flyrant spam lists. (GW loves to 'magic bullet' something they see too often.) I mean it's great all around, but the fact it happens to deal a pretty strong blow against a no hold barred style tournament list is gravy.

 

I don't like their access to Sanctic and when I first read it a month ago, my only hope was they wouldn't get to ignore the doubles = perils. Which is good to hear, however I have to wonder if there will be wargear allowing re-rolls making Sanctic that much more usable for them?

 

Thinking of all of this, I think Psychic -denial- will be a big part of taking this down a notch. For me that means my typical multi-libby and I'm thinking Multi-Purifier (combat squaded) just to get up to 10 charges between those units. Denial is going to be one way I see getting into their heads during a game.

 

Going back to the formations, with dual Libbies, maybe Divination, remove cover is going to be something to shoot for against Eldar. Give your Stormraven a fighting chance. Here's where coming in second will be good, and remove cover will give the Crimson Flyers issues, as well as some other units.

 

The Aspect one is nasty. Fire dragon squads with BS5 is going to be brutal. I don't know point costs, but wow, that's potentially an NDK or two a turn if things go right.

 

This leads me to NDK's. The eldar seem best suited for high Warp Charge counts, and MSU. NDK's don't feed that very well, and could be severely limited by that spammy bike stuff with Bladestorm (it's not mentioned but I assume it's still there?) and Fire Dragons.

 

As you said though, I agree assault is going to be huge, and the NDK has the speed to make it possible .... BUT what I foresee is the Eldar bikes kiting Grey Knights (obvious huge range/run advantage) and if Grey Knights take the bait to advance, then the Fire Dragons just drop and melta you on your way in....

 

This is going to be really tough.... because you know once you get there, there's also gonna be a Wraithknight to contend with after you shake off bike shots, and fire dragons... lol.

 

I'm thinking I'd rather be Astra for this match up oddly enough.

 

(I can't get past those bikes being a 3+ save though.... I just can't.)

[d@n]

Gargantuan monstrous creatures can fire all there weapons( if I remember correctly) , so your looking at 2 d weapon shots plus 2axillary weapons a turn.

[Zhukov]

A lot of good Eldar players will take a CAD and possible some formations along with it. The Windrider formation does nothing for Jetbikes except making them lose Objective Secured, which is a big deal when you're so fast and likely to have a few surviving Jetbikes near the end of the game.

 

Terminators are not that great against the amount of firepower some Eldar lists will have, they still lack a certain amount of mobility and offensive power to be relevant against them. If people field large squads of Jetbikes with Scatter Lasers (my bet is people wont after a while, it's a bad idea) then switching towards MSU in Rhinos/Razors will work better. (You make them waste firepower by virtue of them causing overkill)

 

Look for things capable of alphastriking them (with relevant offensive power) such as Dreadknights, Interceptors and Allied Pods. Sicarians are nice provided they don't get wrecked by S:D.

 

Purifiers in Pods can force the Eldar player to reserve or at least spread out to give an example. In the end Jetbikes have amazing damage output and mobility, but their defensive statline is their weakness: With Scatter Lasers equipped they're 27 points costing Marines without ATSKNF.

 

There is little you can do against people who play with... let's say 6x5 Jetbikes, reserving them while having an Autarch and having the rest of their points in very resilient units.

 

I don't believe much changes for pure Grey Knights with the exception that Terminators most likely become less attractive.

 

Overall your goal is alphastriking them if they play with a lot of Jetbikes, because simply trading firepower with them isn't going to work, their damage output is quite frankly just dumb.

 

Obviously try to assault them when you can, that should speak for itself.

 

The Wraithknight can be killed with enough Force weapons in CC, apart from that it's going nowhere, we lack the shooting for it.

 

Spirit Host: Er yeah...if they load into those Falcons I mentioned earlier, you're in serious trouble.

 

Wraithguard still can't embark on Falcons.

 

 

Frankly, I wonder at this point whether it's relevant at all to discuss how to deal with Eldar. It completely depends on what they take and it completely depends on what people are going to do with the Eldar codex in the first place. I doubt it's going to be left alone as it is, it's simply... pretty broken. Apart from this post I'm going to wait it out to see how things pan out. One thing is sure: When left alone, the Eldar codex can simply win against Grey Knights if they choose so. There is little you can do against S:D (Countering Dreadknights), Jetbikes with Scatter Lasers (countering pretty much the rest). They're the perfect tools to deal with GK's. They're taking Wraithknights with Sword + Shield? Then what little can make it into CC will probably die there against a WK lol.

[Rurik the blessed]

great topic... soon i will fight on a tournament, and all this is so useful

thx

[Prot]

There is little you can do against people who play with... let's say 6x5 Jetbikes, reserving them while having an Autarch and having the rest of their points in very resilient units.

 

 

^This is what I foresee. The mid size squads spammed (just to prevent leadership issues from losing a bike). I don't see someone diving into giant bike squads as this will really limit targeting and harassment capabilities.

 

I don't believe much changes for pure Grey Knights with the exception that Terminators most likely become less attractive.

 

 

Every codex that comes out dilutes the Terminator piece by piece. It's a sad but real phenomena.

 

 

As a side note I'm starting to wonder if there isn't a good use for Assassins waiting to be explored here?

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Crimson Death sticks out as nearly automatic. It's got a huge angle on the annoying Flyrant spam lists. (GW loves to 'magic bullet' something they see too often.) I mean it's great all around, but the fact it happens to deal a pretty strong blow against a no hold barred style tournament list is gravy.

 

Yeah, that's how I see it too. It's just so powerful and relevant, you're bound to see it. 

I don't like their access to Sanctic and when I first read it a month ago, my only hope was they wouldn't get to ignore the doubles = perils. Which is good to hear, however I have to wonder if there will be wargear allowing re-rolls making Sanctic that much more usable for them?

 

Ghosthelm works as before, you can expend a Warp Charge to ignore a lost wound from Perils. So, unless they roll a '1' on the Perils table (or the other 'auto-explode' result), Eldar can shrug off Perils fairly readily. 

 

The relic of note is the Spirit Stones of Anath'Lan. Basically, everytime the Farseer attempts a power, he can reduce the WC cost by 1. However, he loses his rune armour invul save till start of his next turn. Pretty insane. 

Thinking of all of this, I think Psychic -denial- will be a big part of taking this down a notch. For me that means my typical multi-libby and I'm thinking Multi-Purifier (combat squaded) just to get up to 10 charges between those units. Denial is going to be one way I see getting into their heads during a game.

 

The problem is, how do you deliver those Purifiers? Allied pods can work, but Eldar don't camp normally, they can just drive away and shoot you. I wouldn't be trying to race Eldar in the warp charge game. Their psykers are cheaper for what they do and better. Just focus on stopping big powers like 'Prescience', 'Guide', 'Doom', 'Misfortune' etc. They will get some of their powers through though, they're like Daemons. 

Going back to the formations, with dual Libbies, maybe Divination, remove cover is going to be something to shoot for against Eldar. Give your Stormraven a fighting chance. Here's where coming in second will be good, and remove cover will give the Crimson Flyers issues, as well as some other units.

 

'Perfect Timing' can only be cast on the psyker and his unit :( we're not Tau, we don't have Ignore Cover on a stick. Also, it's random. 

The Aspect one is nasty. Fire dragon squads with BS5 is going to be brutal. I don't know point costs, but wow, that's potentially an NDK or two a turn if things go right.

 

None of the Formations impose additional points costs. Dragons are still 22pts each, which is very reasonable considering their damage output. 

This leads me to NDK's. The eldar seem best suited for high Warp Charge counts, and MSU. NDK's don't feed that very well, and could be severely limited by that spammy bike stuff with Bladestorm (it's not mentioned but I assume it's still there?) and Fire Dragons.

 

The jetbikes can take shuriken cannon for the same price as scatter laser, and the Windrider formation grants them a once-use 'Shred' bonus. But in all honestly, you'll see scatter laser. They'll just Dragon our DK's to death, or use other AP2. 

As you said though, I agree assault is going to be huge, and the NDK has the speed to make it possible .... BUT what I foresee is the Eldar bikes kiting Grey Knights (obvious huge range/run advantage) and if Grey Knights take the bait to advance, then the Fire Dragons just drop and melta you on your way in....

 

I'd ignore the jetbikes for at least a turn, focus down the Dragons, any other AP2 they have like WK etc. Once that is dead, you can hunt down the jetbikes and slaughter them. 

This is going to be really tough.... because you know once you get there, there's also gonna be a Wraithknight to contend with after you shake off bike shots, and fire dragons... lol.

 

The WK is annoying, but once you put DK's into melee with it it should fall. Don't forget 'Sanctuary' and 'Force' prior to charging, they're clutch powers against it. 

I'm thinking I'd rather be Astra for this match up oddly enough.

 

Nah, Imperial Guard have serious issues now. Their tanks are going to be outflanked and destroyed, or shot with D weapons/bright lance. Even their Air Cav list has issues now, due to Crimson Death and WK being a bullet sponge even to lascannon spam. 

(I can't get past those bikes being a 3+ save though.... I just can't.)

 

Yeah it's pretty absurd. I dunno why they thought it's a good idea. A 5+ or even 4+ armour save would've been fine, even with the Toughness increase (which is standard for any Biker unit). 3+ puts them into 'Template weapons and most barrage plink off us' tier. 

Gargantuan monstrous creatures can fire all there weapons( if I remember correctly) , so your looking at 2 d weapon shots plus 2axillary weapons a turn. 

 

Yeah I know, and probably it'll be starcannon or bright lance for the secondaries. But it's the double wraithcannon that is the main issue, due to the random one-shot potential and their huge range. 

A lot of good Eldar players will take a CAD and possible some formations along with it. The Windrider formation does nothing for Jetbikes except making them lose Objective Secured, which is a big deal when you're so fast and likely to have a few surviving Jetbikes near the end of the game.

 

Read the codex. They get once-per-game Shred. If you're running shuriken cannon on them instead of scatter laser, that's a pretty big deal. Also, Objective Secured doesn't matter if the enemy scoring is all dead. Which massed S6 can do (not to mention all the other firepower they have). 

Terminators are not that great against the amount of firepower some Eldar lists will have, they still lack a certain amount of mobility and offensive power to be relevant against them. If people field large squads of Jetbikes with Scatter Lasers (my bet is people wont after a while, it's a bad idea) then switching towards MSU in Rhinos/Razors will work better. (You make them waste firepower by virtue of them causing overkill)

 

Rhinos and Razorbacks are dead meat to Eldar. Even with just jetbike squads, they'll glance them to death, then they'll drive away and leave you stranded mid-field out of range to do anything. Assuming their other guns don't just murder you immediately after, next turn the jetbikes zoom back into 36" and gun you down with massed S6. 

Look for things capable of alphastriking them (with relevant offensive power) such as Dreadknights, Interceptors and Allied Pods. Sicarians are nice provided they don't get wrecked by S:D.

 

Yeah the alpha strike will be pretty crucial. I'm looking at Interceptor and DK heavy, seeing how that looks. Sicarians look like the perfect way to handle jetbikes, Wave Serpents and Crimson Hunters. Most likely hide them behind an Aegis Line and then roll 'Telepathy' on the Allied Librarian, hope for 'Shrouding'. 

Purifiers in Pods can force the Eldar player to reserve or at least spread out to give an example. In the end Jetbikes have amazing damage output and mobility, but their defensive statline is their weakness: With Scatter Lasers equipped they're 27 points costing Marines without ATSKNF.

 

No they won't. On average dice, assuming you land in range and successfully manifest (ie don't fail or get Denied), each casting of 'Cleansing Flame' kills 1-2 jetbikes. Given they can come in squads of 10 and cost not much more than Purifiers (270 versus 250 for full squads of either), that's pretty bad. 

There is little you can do against people who play with... let's say 6x5 Jetbikes, reserving them while having an Autarch and having the rest of their points in very resilient units.

 

I think you'll see larger squads on the field. 'Prescience' and 'Guide' are both available to Farseers, and they're different powers so he can buff multiple squads with them. 40x S6 shots with re-rolls to hit is scary as hell. But yeah, MSU Jetbikes will still be a thing too. They're a very flexible unit. 

I don't believe much changes for pure Grey Knights with the exception that Terminators most likely become less attractive.

 

Well I feel like Eldar are kinda the final nail in pure builds. Because without Allies there are a bunch of Eldar things we simply can't handle effectively. Sicarians seem pretty mandatory for example. 

The Wraithknight can be killed with enough Force weapons in CC, apart from that it's going nowhere, we lack the shooting for it.

 

Only nemesis hammers or DK greatswords, because anything else is a waste of time. You need to cast 'Hammerhand' first to even wound on 6's (it's immune to S4), and even with falchions you may simply do nothing to it. It's really dumb they gave it WS5, I5 and S8. It punches all our characters and infantry to death before they can swing (Paladins in particular will just get torn to shreds). 

Wraithguard still can't embark on Falcons.

 

Oh good catch, forgot about Bulky and 6 man transport cap. Well, Falcon+Dragon is a pretty classic combo, and no scatter Deepstrike is pretty much solid gold for a unit of meltagun elves. 

^This is what I foresee. The mid size squads spammed (just to prevent leadership issues from losing a bike). I don't see someone diving into giant bike squads as this will really limit targeting and harassment capabilities.

 

I dunno, I would plan to see both. Larger squads will have Farseers and/or Warlocks embedded in them anyway, to mitigate their Leadership issues and to buff them. But yeah, MSU is going to be super annoying now. Mainly because before, at least jetbikes didn't do much damage. Now they do absurd amounts of S6 spam and are still cheap MSU Turn 5 wincons. 

Every codex that comes out dilutes the Terminator piece by piece. It's a sad but real phenomena.

 

 

As a side note I'm starting to wonder if there isn't a good use for Assassins waiting to be explored here?

 

Culexus ;) it'll take apart Farseers and Warlock conclaves. It'll also tank a bunch of firepower from them. 

[L30n1d4s]

Here is something I wrote up when using allied Imperial Assassins to combat Jetbike spam:

 

https://greysplinter.wordpress.com/2015/04/21/352/

[Reclusiarch Darius]

One problem with your analysis is you can't charge Turn 1 (unless you're going second). Same for arriving from Reserves. So, any melee attempt you make is likely to be Turn 2 at best. It's why Culexus stands head and shoulders above the others, due to his forced Snap Shots and multiple shots from his own gun at mid-range. 

 

Vindicare doesn't ignore Look Out Sir though (he does reduce it by -2), so his actual sniping potential is mainly limited to special weapons guys (which Eldar don't have lol). You'd probably take out the Warlock, but I doubt the Farseer. Callidus is gonna land, BBQ something, then die horribly. Eversor is very cool, and he'd be great murdering a Wraithknight in melee, but getting there is a problem for him. Probably need a Raven to deliver him (not Land Raiders), but Eldar have the skies covered with Crimson Hunters. Sigh. 

[Happy-inquisitor]

 

Purifiers in Pods can force the Eldar player to reserve or at least spread out to give an example. In the end Jetbikes have amazing damage output and mobility, but their defensive statline is their weakness: With Scatter Lasers equipped they're 27 points costing Marines without ATSKNF.

 

No they won't. On average dice, assuming you land in range and successfully manifest (ie don't fail or get Denied), each casting of 'Cleansing Flame' kills 1-2 jetbikes. Given they can come in squads of 10 and cost not much more than Purifiers (270 versus 250 for full squads of either), that's pretty bad. 

 

 

 In which case you have already forced them to spread out to more than 18" between each unit. Spread out this far probably means they have had to reserve some of their units and so reduce their turn 1 shooting impact, the deployment zone is only so big and jetbikes have a large footprint when taken in large numbers.

 

If they really do go jetbike spam then I think you can reasonably expect to hit a couple of units inside the 18" diameter.  Factor in combat squadding the purifiers (because you would be mad not to) and you are looking at putting maybe 3 wounds on each of those squads - already a decent return given that those are 27 point models. With mediocre leadership you have a chance of one of those units failing and falling off the table - in which case you are ahead of the game already and still have your shooting phase and a serious combat threat in their backfield. It is not like you are having to tailor an otherwise useless unit for this one purpose - drop-pod purifiers are pretty excellent anyway.

 

For this reason I think jetbike spam is less nasty than the old serpent spam - the damage output per point is fairly similar but they are vulnerable to a wider range of weapons/powers and they have to worry about morale. They are still excellent and very dangerous but to a far greater extent the eldar player is forced to engage with you in the battle of tactics and wits that is what makes a good game IMO. The eldar player has counters available to this tactic (and most others) but putting every possible counter into a single list or deployment choice is hard and is not the same at all as mindless spamming of one or two great units that steamroller all opposition.

[SyNidus]

Just played a 1500 point game against the new Eldar, maelstrom, albeit without the cheesier stuff...I won by 12 - 6. I'll post up a bat rep soon, and I'll reply to this post soon - ipad battery dying now.

[jeffersonian000]

Hammer on DKs will be better than Swords, because you need the Concussion given that Force will not kill a WK out right while the WK still goes first in CC. Letting your surviving DKs go first on the 2nd round should end the WK on their turn.

 

SJ

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 In which case you have already forced them to spread out to more than 18" between each unit. Spread out this far probably means they have had to reserve some of their units and so reduce their turn 1 shooting impact, the deployment zone is only so big and jetbikes have a large footprint when taken in large numbers.

 

The Eldar player can comfortably fit 30 jetbikes in his DZ, plus some other stuff. It's not an issue. 

If they really do go jetbike spam then I think you can reasonably expect to hit a couple of units inside the 18" diameter.  Factor in combat squadding the purifiers (because you would be mad not to) and you are looking at putting maybe 3 wounds on each of those squads - already a decent return given that those are 27 point models. With mediocre leadership you have a chance of one of those units failing and falling off the table - in which case you are ahead of the game already and still have your shooting phase and a serious combat threat in their backfield. It is not like you are having to tailor an otherwise useless unit for this one purpose - drop-pod purifiers are pretty excellent anyway.

 

They'll have Warlock leaders at the very least, if not a Farseer attached. Leadership isn't a reliable way to attack them. My point is, for every unit under 'Cleansing Flame', it typically only kills 1-2 jetbikes on average. That's not an alpha strike, that's barely scratching them. Considering Purifiers cost 125 per combat squad, and a full unit in a pod is 285pts (ie about the same as a jetbike unit), it's a pretty pathetic return on investment. 

For this reason I think jetbike spam is less nasty than the old serpent spam - the damage output per point is fairly similar but they are vulnerable to a wider range of weapons/powers and they have to worry about morale. They are still excellent and very dangerous but to a far greater extent the eldar player is forced to engage with you in the battle of tactics and wits that is what makes a good game IMO. The eldar player has counters available to this tactic (and most others) but putting every possible counter into a single list or deployment choice is hard and is not the same at all as mindless spamming of one or two great units that steamroller all opposition.

 

No it's far worse. Three bikes generate more firepower than a single Serpent now, they're cheaper and they're Troops/form part of a Core formation in 'Craftworld Warhost'. They're also far more resiliant, because they have more wounds (WS only has 3HP). It's true that jetbikes can be wounded by more things, but between their 3+ armour and 4+ jink, they can tank a lot more of it. And that's not even factoring in all the psychic buffs Eldar can throw on them, nor their unrivaled mobility (12" movement, 24" flat out, 2D6 Assault move). 

Hammer on DKs will be better than Swords, because you need the Concussion given that Force will not kill a WK out right while the WK still goes first in CC. Letting your surviving DKs go first on the 2nd round should end the WK on their turn.

 

Yeah that is true. The re-roll from a greatsword might give you the extra 'Force' wound you need to kill them outright in the first place though. Plus, the Eldar player can always charge in something else to bail their WK out of combat. 

[Everon]

Yeah. Sad thing is I'm reading my wife's eldar codex and I'm just finding different ways to destroy my own army as well as others, but no real weakness for my gk to exploit with out taking a full 3 I knight contingent. I hope some one is seeing a way around this mess

[Happy-inquisitor]

If they really do go jetbike spam then I think you can reasonably expect to hit a couple of units inside the 18" diameter.  Factor in combat squadding the purifiers (because you would be mad not to) and you are looking at putting maybe 3 wounds on each of those squads - already a decent return given that those are 27 point models. With mediocre leadership you have a chance of one of those units failing and falling off the table - in which case you are ahead of the game already and still have your shooting phase and a serious combat threat in their backfield. It is not like you are having to tailor an otherwise useless unit for this one purpose - drop-pod purifiers are pretty excellent anyway.

 

They'll have Warlock leaders at the very least, if not a Farseer attached. Leadership isn't a reliable way to attack them. My point is, for every unit under 'Cleansing Flame', it typically only kills 1-2 jetbikes on average. That's not an alpha strike, that's barely scratching them. Considering Purifiers cost 125 per combat squad, and a full unit in a pod is 285pts (ie about the same as a jetbike unit), it's a pretty pathetic return on investment. 

 

Ld8 is not that great, if you force them to make enough checks you will either make them fall off the table or the dice gods just don't like you.   Warlocks are an expensive upgrade and do not improve their leadership, they do improve the eldar chances of denying one of your witchfires with the better 5+ deny roll. Eldar are very efficient users of warp charge in their own turn but they don't generate that many warp dice, if they are putting around 1000 points of jetbikes + warlocks on the table and they still need anti-heavy (wraithknights) and anti-air (crimson hunters) then with the farseer they will have all of 6 dice which does not even nearly match what a purifier GK list has.

 

All of this assumes that the eldar player goes against conventional wisdom for dealing with deepstrike/drop-pod armies and spreads right out - inviting you to concentrate your forces on wiping out one flank on arrival. So he has reduced your total damage output by sacrificing a considerable portion of his army and a big chunk of his own deployment zone. He never had to do that with wave serpents because they were invulnerable to cleansing flame and storm bolters. By the time he gets to use his massed shooting he very probably has less of it than he would have with the old wave serpent build.

 

But really my point is that this is just one of the better units that GK players might be taking already and it is so much more effective against scatterbikes than against wave serpents.

[Prot]

The Cleansing Flame idea is something I was thinking of, but it occured to me with the way Nova's work, there's probably an excellent chance the little pointy eared buggers will cancel it.... what would they get? A 4+ DTW?

 

With the Eldar, I think I've seen this movie before. It goes something like this:

 

1 Prot puts together a so called 'clever' list with lots of purifiers.....

2. Prot plays said Eldar player and as usual gets Vortex on 2 Libbys, and zero Cleansing Flames.

3. Crimson Hunters destroy Prot's 'Clever Purifier delivery system'.

4. Classic Prot Maneuver: Panic. Unlease 2 Vortices! Kill half the bikes, scatter, killing half his own army as well.

 

That's right xenos take that. It's hard to outplay someone willing to destroy half his army just to put a dent in a flying bicycle! 

[Aethernitas]

I think I found the first competent Craftworld Eldar batrep. 1875pts Iron Warriors against Eldar. The Eldar List is not what I would call cheesy or WAAC but it still seems incedibly strong especially as the IW list is not a beer& pretzels list either. Take a look yourself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2o7U7Dst7U

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Ld8 is not that great, if you force them to make enough checks you will either make them fall off the table or the dice gods just don't like you.   Warlocks are an expensive upgrade and do not improve their leadership, they do improve the eldar chances of denying one of your witchfires with the better 5+ deny roll. Eldar are very efficient users of warp charge in their own turn but they don't generate that many warp dice, if they are putting around 1000 points of jetbikes + warlocks on the table and they still need anti-heavy (wraithknights) and anti-air (crimson hunters) then with the farseer they will have all of 6 dice which does not even nearly match what a purifier GK list has.

 

All of this assumes that the eldar player goes against conventional wisdom for dealing with deepstrike/drop-pod armies and spreads right out - inviting you to concentrate your forces on wiping out one flank on arrival. So he has reduced your total damage output by sacrificing a considerable portion of his army and a big chunk of his own deployment zone. He never had to do that with wave serpents because they were invulnerable to cleansing flame and storm bolters. By the time he gets to use his massed shooting he very probably has less of it than he would have with the old wave serpent build.

 

But really my point is that this is just one of the better units that GK players might be taking already and it is so much more effective against scatterbikes than against wave serpents.

 

Ld8 is pretty reliable. I certainly wouldn't rely on breaking it, especially not with a psychic power they can Deny fairly easy (especially if you tag a Farseer-attached squad). Also, even if it's not Denied, it only kills 1-2 per squadron, which isn't enough to force Leadership tests anyway. And I would not rely on Soulblaze to do anything, it's random and randomly goes out as well. Against horde infantry, yeah it's hilarious, but T4 3+ armour models don't care about some extra bolter hits. Yes, 'Cleansing Flame' does nothing to mech lists either (unless you can get in their rear arc). But it's not especially better versus jetbike spam either. 

I think I found the first competent Craftworld Eldar batrep. 1875pts Iron Warriors against Eldar. The Eldar List is not what I would call cheesy or WAAC but it still seems incedibly strong especially as the IW list is not a beer& pretzels list either. Take a look yourself:

 

 

The Sicarians were a good pick, and I think they're gonna rapidly replace Predators in most lists just due to that accelerator autocannon being so much more relevant against skimmers, Flyers and bikes. The Forgefiend is...interesting, he really shoulda just taken another Sicarian. Hellbrute and mechanised CSM was probably not the best idea. He really needs some Plague Marines. Could chuck out the Hellbrute formation, it's not really gonna do much to an Eldar mech list lol. 

[jeffersonian000]

Is it bad that all I really got out of it was, "Fat Mats are nice! Need to get me one."?

 

SJ

[Prot]

I think I found the first competent Craftworld Eldar batrep. 1875pts Iron Warriors against Eldar. The Eldar List is not what I would call cheesy or WAAC but it still seems incedibly strong especially as the IW list is not a beer& pretzels list either. Take a look yourself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2o7U7Dst7U

 

Yea I saw that one as soon as it popped up...

 

It's unfortunately the nature of the game. Remember when Flyers were first introducted. Man people were just going nuts. The sky was falling, and the imperium was being called to an end by flyer lists. Now it's the Gargantuan Creature's turn.

 

It will be like this for... 3-4 months. The Craftworld of "I-win" will be using these heavily at local gaming shops, but I have to wonder if you will see many in tournaments? With Centurions in non-Ultramarine Drop Pods (I still find that hilarious) they are always a turn of decent shooting away from an early grave.

 

Maybe not as common but the Sternguard Drop Pod is still a common theme too.

 

Ironically I realize I'm listing answers we don't have without allying. For me? The answer is the same as it will always is.... unleash Vortices until both sides are eradicated!

 

Seriously though, to me, this sets up the new Knight Codex. We have to start thinking more like GW's last 2-3 year's mentality:

 

- Necrons come out. The only thing that stops re-animation is D. (Insta-death can only modify it.) To add salt to the wound, the truly potent part is really the Decurion. (I guarantee you the rest of the codex is fine outside of the Decurion and in 6 months you'll see it.) The Decurion will end up banned, but it does serve GW the purpose of saying: YOU must include D weaponry to contend at the higher levels of play.

 

- The Magic "Decurion" Bullet: D-weapon Gargantuan Creature, featured in Eldar Craftworlds, sprinkled with a ton of other cool stuff. Move over Necrons. Now we need an answer for Reanimation AND Gargantuan Creatures? What could this possibly be leading to.....????

 

- New Knight codex! Decurion Spank-down Robot 9000 which also happens to be a good dance partner for the Wraithknight? I'll take 3!!!!

 

- Sadly this also means a variant of Space Marine Grav-gun upgrade that turns Knights into run down I-watch factories.

 

Thus the cycle of life continues in the cold, dark, future of codex creation.

 

At the end of the day those meta adjustments will always happen with codex swings, but I just want to make sure my Termies, and Dreadknights have a place on the table. :)

[Gentlemanloser]

WraithKnight versus 2 Vindicator Tank Demolishers

 

Overcharged Capacitor gives 6 shots, all twin linked.

 

6 Shots, 4 hits.  2 rerolls, 1.33 hits.

 

5.33 hits total.

 

S9 versus T8, 3.55 wounds.

 

5++ Save & 5+ FnP, 1.58 unsaved wounds.

 

:(

[Happy-inquisitor]

 

Ld8 is not that great, if you force them to make enough checks you will either make them fall off the table or the dice gods just don't like you.   Warlocks are an expensive upgrade and do not improve their leadership, they do improve the eldar chances of denying one of your witchfires with the better 5+ deny roll. Eldar are very efficient users of warp charge in their own turn but they don't generate that many warp dice, if they are putting around 1000 points of jetbikes + warlocks on the table and they still need anti-heavy (wraithknights) and anti-air (crimson hunters) then with the farseer they will have all of 6 dice which does not even nearly match what a purifier GK list has.

 

All of this assumes that the eldar player goes against conventional wisdom for dealing with deepstrike/drop-pod armies and spreads right out - inviting you to concentrate your forces on wiping out one flank on arrival. So he has reduced your total damage output by sacrificing a considerable portion of his army and a big chunk of his own deployment zone. He never had to do that with wave serpents because they were invulnerable to cleansing flame and storm bolters. By the time he gets to use his massed shooting he very probably has less of it than he would have with the old wave serpent build.

 

But really my point is that this is just one of the better units that GK players might be taking already and it is so much more effective against scatterbikes than against wave serpents.

 

Ld8 is pretty reliable. I certainly wouldn't rely on breaking it, especially not with a psychic power they can Deny fairly easy (especially if you tag a Farseer-attached squad). Also, even if it's not Denied, it only kills 1-2 per squadron, which isn't enough to force Leadership tests anyway. And I would not rely on Soulblaze to do anything, it's random and randomly goes out as well. Against horde infantry, yeah it's hilarious, but T4 3+ armour models don't care about some extra bolter hits. Yes, 'Cleansing Flame' does nothing to mech lists either (unless you can get in their rear arc). But it's not especially better versus jetbike spam either. 

 

 

Memo to self - do not buy a used car from RD. A close to 1/3 chance of failure is not "reliable".

 

As for hitting the rear armour of wave serpents on the drop - now I know you are just pulling my leg. Or do they not have table edges in your meta?

[Leif Bearclaw]

5++ Save & 5+ FnP, 1.58 unsaved wounds.

 

How does it get FnP? Can't see that in the dex.

[Aethernitas]

How does it get FnP? Can't see that in the dex.

 

 

It's a gargantuan creature. FnP is one of the biggest reasons it's so buffed now compared with it's former MC status.

[Prot]

Yup, FnP bonus PLUS Poison resist bonus.

 

The Plethora of Dark Eldar I face alone make me hesitant to ever use more than 2 NDK's *Obviously because they wound them like a normal marine which really sucks.... BUT if they were Gargantuan.... totally different story with those filthy little pointy eared buggers.