Fighting Eldar: Challenge Accepted

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Maybe ally in Salamanders with drop pods and deep striking land speeders with He'stan for Master crafting and hope you get lucky?
The main thing may be to try and focus on the rest of the army, and try and destroy that before the Wraithknght destroys you? Though Bikes kind of make that hard.
It's kind of funny, I'm shelving my thousand sons and Eldar as a result of this codex, both for the same reason but opposite ends :P

It still has only 3+ right? If so maybe just giver every battlebrother and their dogs halberds and try and get into combat? It's still initiative 4 liek other wraith units? If not maybe go for Biomancy on Librarians and hope for enfeeble or warp speed, possibly iron arm as well?

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Memo to self - do not buy a used car from RD. A close to 1/3 chance of failure is not "reliable".

 

I can count on one hand the number of times I've won games due to the enemy failing Leadership. By contrast, if a unit is dead, I don't have to worry about it anymore. 

At the end of the day those meta adjustments will always happen with codex swings, but I just want to make sure my Termies, and Dreadknights have a place on the table. :)

 

 

We're rapidly becoming irrelevant to the meta-game. Xenos kinda dictate how things are now, and even vanilla Marines are only hanging on thanks to new toys (Centurions, Allied pods, Forge World vehicles etc). It'll be interesting to see how Marines are handled, whenever it is they're updated. I might actually get around to building out my Exorcists properly. 

 

As for hitting the rear armour of wave serpents on the drop - now I know you are just pulling my leg. Or do they not have table edges in your meta?

 

 

Nah, I land on a table behind them ;)

The Plethora of Dark Eldar I face alone make me hesitant to ever use more than 2 NDK's *Obviously because they wound them like a normal marine which really sucks.... BUT if they were Gargantuan.... totally different story with those filthy little pointy eared buggers.

 

Poison doesn't kill DK's, unless your dice are cursed. 2+ save and 4 wounds means it's a really bad strategy on their part. Their AP2 spam however will rek you, although 'Sanctuary' helps somewhat. I dunno that Eldar need DE anymore at this point, besides for WWP+Wraithflamer shenanigans. 

Maybe ally in Salamanders with drop pods and deep striking land speeders with He'stan for Master crafting and hope you get lucky?

 

They have no Interceptor, which is a plus. However, your meltas are probably going to be Jinked by their skimmers, and the Wraithknight is only wounded on 4's and has FNP against it too. Melta DS works great against Knight-Titans and things like Armoured Company, but it's a skew to counter skew. I'd expect your Speeders and tiny handful of Marines to be shot off-table the turn thereafter by jetbikes. 

The main thing may be to try and focus on the rest of the army, and try and destroy that before the Wraithknght destroys you? Though Bikes kind of make that hard.

 

Jetbikes just drive out of your weapon range and laugh. I think you need an Interceptor list to take on Eldar properly. Their mobility is just gonna make them run rings around a normal list. 

It still has only 3+ right? If so maybe just giver every battlebrother and their dogs halberds and try and get into combat? It's still initiative 4 liek other wraith units? If not maybe go for Biomancy on Librarians and hope for enfeeble or warp speed, possibly iron arm as well?

 

No it's Initiative 5. It'll punch any of our characters to death before they can swing, and murder Terminators fairly reliably. DK's are your best bet. 

[Aethernitas]

No it's Initiative 5. It'll punch any of our characters to death before they can swing, and murder Terminators fairly reliably. DK's are your best bet.

 

Let's not exaggerate. I'd guess most of the time we will see the ranged D-weapon configuration and if you manage to get into combat with terminators/paladins (Land Raider, Raven, cornering it etc) it hits first with 4 attacks, hits with 2, wounds with 1,67 and after invul safes that either becomes 1,12 or with sanctuary 0,84 unsaved wounds. You can easily LoS! any wounds on you characters.

 

At the backswing a 5 man paladin squad (now 4 man) with nothing but hammerhand and one hammer does 2 unsaved wounds. With another paladin dead before striking in the next combat round you should have killed the Wraithknight after 4 turns of combat as long as it doesn't kill your hammer with stomps. Not really ideal but who runs a Paladin squad like that?

 

Now if you use a more sensible paladin squad with a librarian, a brotherhood banner and a hammers utilizing hammerhand and force you are suddenly looking at 7,12 unsaved wounds which would leave you open to ranged fire in the following Eldar turn but it also only allows one round of stomps.

 

Compare this to 10 terminators with all halberds and 2 hammers using hammerhand which is 80 points cheaper than the above paladin unit manages 3,38 unsaved wounds in the charge round after losing one guy. They also loose a lot more attacks to stomp-casualties which can't kill the 2 wound paladins (except for that random :cussing 6 ofc). They still club the thing to death as soon as combat turn 2 or 3.

 

A NDK on the charge with force on does 5,56 wounds after taking 1,12 wounds from the WK.

 

The big factor I left out of my math is the fact that the ranged d-weapons and the stomps are most effektive against the NDK followed by the paladins and then the terminators. Even just one shooting phase from the WK does 3 unsaved wounds to the NDK even with sanctuary on. With paladins is averages out slightly lower because a maximum of one paladin can die per hit. Terminators look really strong here - they only loose an average 0,81 wounds.

 

tldr: we have a lot of valid choices against the WK - the problem is to get them into cc

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Let's not exaggerate. I'd guess most of the time we will see the ranged D-weapon configuration and if you manage to get into combat with terminators/paladins (Land Raider, Raven, cornering it etc) it hits first with 4 attacks, hits with 2, wounds with 1,67 and after invul safes that either becomes 1,12 or with sanctuary 0,84 unsaved wounds. You can easily LoS! any wounds on you characters.

 

At the backswing a 5 man paladin squad (now 4 man) with nothing but hammerhand and one hammer does 2 unsaved wounds. With another paladin dead before striking in the next combat round you should have killed the Wraithknight after 4 turns of combat as long as it doesn't kill your hammer with stomps. Not really ideal but who runs a Paladin squad like that?

 

Now if you use a more sensible paladin squad with a librarian, a brotherhood banner and a hammers utilizing hammerhand and force you are suddenly looking at 7,12 unsaved wounds which would leave you open to ranged fire in the following Eldar turn but it also only allows one round of stomps.

 

Compare this to 10 terminators with all halberds and 2 hammers using hammerhand which is 80 points cheaper than the above paladin unit manages 3,38 unsaved wounds in the charge round after losing one guy. They also loose a lot more attacks to stomp-casualties which can't kill the 2 wound paladins (except for that random :cussing 6 ofc). They still club the thing to death as soon as combat turn 2 or 3.

 

This is all assuming you get into melee of course. Moreover, that you reach melee with zero casualties. Neither of which are likely to happen. 

 

The DK is the only thing we have with the speed, resliance and hitting power to reliably murder WK and indeed a lot of Eldar stuff. The issue here is especially pronounced, as WK are Jump GC and thus have largely the same mobility as a DK (we have Shunt as well though, so you can catch it). There is nothing stopping the Eldar player just moving away from you, out of melee range if not gun range, and just continuing to attrition you down. It's why I think an Intercept-heavy list is gonna be out best bet, because everything else we have is too expensive and/or slow. 

 

A NDK on the charge with force on does 5,56 wounds after taking 1,12 wounds from the WK.

 

 

Exactly. You're already most of the way with a single DK, and he's unlikely to die to a WK in combat ('Sanctuary' helps with that too). At that point, the Eldar player either has to send something to bail the WK out, or trade the WK and hope to kill your DK when it exits combat (probably with Dragons). A DK is gonna tie up way more resources even if it fails to kill the WK, and at worst you'll severely maul it (enough for a lucky failed save to kill it). 

The big factor I left out of my math is the fact that the ranged d-weapons and the stomps are most effektive against the NDK followed by the paladins and then the terminators. Even just one shooting phase from the WK does 3 unsaved wounds to the NDK even with sanctuary on. With paladins is averages out slightly lower because a maximum of one paladin can die per hit. Terminators look really strong here - they only loose an average 0,81 wounds.

 

Yeah, which is why you take multiples (you'll lose 1-2 to Eldar shooting on the way in). DK's are still the most resistant to Eldar shooting, because S6 spam has a hard time dinging them up, and S8+ doesn't insta-gib them. Paladins are by far the worst choice, as you put all your eggs in one expensive basket and hope they didn't bring Fire Prisms. Terminators are very cost-effective and flexible, but their slowness is gonna kill you if you can't quickly engage the Eldar in melee. That's what I fear the most. Maybe you get off a really good alpha-strike with 'Rites', but then they just drive away and shoot you the rest of the game. DK's can just jump after them and catch them, same for Interceptors. 

tldr: we have a lot of valid choices against the WK - the problem is to get them into cc

 

If they can't reliably engage it in melee quickly (because lets at least agree that our shooting does nothing to Eldar mech or WK), they're not going to be viable. I mean, I'd be looking at Ravens bare minimum for say Paladins or Purifiers. Same for Terminators. But then you run into issues against Crimson Hunters, who kill Ravens very efficiently and can also be taken to kill DK's and whittle down our infantry. I think our choices boil down to DK's, Interceptors and Raven+assault unit of your choosing. 

[jeffersonian000]

Wardens will ward you, a Knight for your Knights, with the thrumming sticcoto of auto cannon fire.

 

SJ

[Gentlemanloser]

Go big or go home. :)

[Aethernitas]

Oh my RD, I get the vibe that you don't like Paladins?

Well I really like them (not in the form of Draigostars though) and I guess thats why I try a little harder to make them work. And guess what - they work quite nicely for me. I dunno what monstrous Crimson Hunters you are playing against but one of our Eldar players uses 2 (one a exarch) and with jinking I still get to deliver my payload barring extreme luck (I'm talking sixes in multiples) on his side. A single Crimson Hunter does only 1,34 hp on a raven, a exarch 1,67 while a raven using 2 rockets will on average wreck or explode a Crimson Hunter. When going second I can even shoot one first so he either jinks or on average looses his flyer. Apart from a massive focus to AA it's really not that hard to deliver paladins wherever you want them agaisnt Eldar.

I guess for me it's just not an option to throw 2 NDK on an WK so that one arrives alive (cuz one shooting phase plus the initiative 5 from the WK will on average kill a NDK). There are far more cost efficient and juicer targets for the NDKs to kill.

[jeffersonian000]

Per your math, 2 Crimson Hunters will kill 1 Stormraven in a single shooting phase. Not sure how that makes the SR more survivable (seem less survivable to me).

 

On Paladins, they cost too much for a T4 model with 2 Wounds thst dies to the same S8+ AP1-2 weapons that kill GKT. Simple math, much like your CH vs SR math.

 

SJ

[Aethernitas]

Per your math, 2 Crimson Hunters will kill 1 Stormraven in a single shooting phase. Not sure how that makes the SR more survivable (seem less survivable to me).

 

On Paladins, they cost too much for a T4 model with 2 Wounds thst dies to the same S8+ AP1-2 weapons that kill GKT. Simple math, much like your CH vs SR math.

 

My math doesn't even include the option to jink for the Raven which is sensible if you have a payload to deliver. If you jink the Hunters need on average at least 2 rounds to kill you raven granted those paper darts don't get blown out of the sky themselves.

 

The difference is that my math applies to a very narrow scenario where it actually manages to proof a point whereas your "math" seems more like a generalized personal opinion disguised as math. If it's not clear - I agree that the NDK and Terminators are more point efficient in many situations but by far not all of them. Then there is the factor of "building around" something or "playing around" something to make units viable.

[jeffersonian000]

A S8 AP1 weapon kills a T4 2W Paladin exactly the same way it kill a T4 1W GKT, or a T4 1W PAGK. However, you can take half again as many GKT as you can Paladins, and twice as many PAGK. This makes both GKT and PAGK more resilient to high Strenght, low AP weapons than Paladins. Paladins are more resilient versus Plasma, and even more resilient versus anti-light vehicle weapons and small arms. Yet, they are still more expensive than GKT for roughly the same resiliency. The math can be found all over this forum.

 

I'm sorry you feel defensive over being called out. Please try not to make falsifiable statements if you can't handle others noting errors in those statements.

 

SJ

[Aethernitas]

A S8 AP1 weapon kills a T4 2W Paladin exactly the same way it kill a T4 1W GKT, or a T4 1W PAGK. However, you can take half again as many GKT as you can Paladins, and twice as many PAGK. This makes both GKT and PAGK more resilient to high Strenght, low AP weapons than Paladins. Paladins are more resilient versus Plasma, and even more resilient versus anti-light vehicle weapons and small arms. Yet, they are still more expensive than GKT for roughly the same resiliency. The math can be found all over this forum.

 

I'm sorry you feel defensive over being called out. Please try not to make falsifiable statements if you can't handle others noting errors in those statements.

 

I think you missunderstand me as you felt urged to include the whole termis vs paladins comparison that was so often reiterated that it is nothing new to anyone who joined this forum longer than a week. Your whole paragraph did not invalidate my point that paladins are in some situations superior to NDKs and TAGK. It even emphasizes it.

 

I actually felt a little bad for my snarkyness but your patronizing relieved me from any guilty feelings.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Wardens will ward you, a Knight for your Knights, with the thrumming sticcoto of auto cannon fire.

I'm very keen for the Warden and Crusader. We need AA firepower yesterday. Also, being a Knight-Titan, it won't melt the moment a WK looks at it funny. And it can even fight in melee! I wish we could put 'Perfect Timing' on it...I would feel a joy unknown by mortals to see jetbikes get cut down by the bucketful. 'Jink? I can't hear you over the sound of elf screams'. Acheron does that though ;)

Oh my RD, I get the vibe that you don't like Paladins?

I love Paladins, and my first Terminator squad is still modelled as one (complete with the incredibly beautiful Apothecary model). I hate their rules incarnation, and I wish a wasting disease on whoever designed them. Well, to be fair, I wish the same for the marketing guy who came up with Riptides. Thanks for ruining both of my main armies at once GW. Point being, I field my lovely-looking models as basic Terminators, because I like to win once in a while. Not just sigh as I remove my overpriced infantry once again to a single enemy shooting phase.

Well I really like them (not in the form of Draigostars though) and I guess thats why I try a little harder to make them work. And guess what - they work quite nicely for me. I dunno what monstrous Crimson Hunters you are playing against but one of our Eldar players uses 2 (one a exarch) and with jinking I still get to deliver my payload barring extreme luck (I'm talking sixes in multiples) on his side. A single Crimson Hunter does only 1,34 hp on a raven, a exarch 1,67 while a raven using 2 rockets will on average wreck or explode a Crimson Hunter. When going second I can even shoot one first so he either jinks or on average looses his flyer. Apart from a massive focus to AA it's really not that hard to deliver paladins wherever you want them agaisnt Eldar.

The Crimson Death formation is free, and grants Preferred Enemy: Flyers/FMC's. Unless you have seriously loaded dice, that squadron on average dice can blow your Raven out of the sky, Jink be damned. They also pull double duty blowing up DK's and being pretty much immune to our Shooting phase (2+ Jink that they re-roll if failed). The Raven might kill one if you come on from Reserves after they do, but that leaves two more.

I guess for me it's just not an option to throw 2 NDK on an WK so that one arrives alive (cuz one shooting phase plus the initiative 5 from the WK will on average kill a NDK). There are far more cost efficient and juicer targets for the NDKs to kill.

You don't throw 2, you throw 3+ at it. 4 is probably optimal.

The difference is that my math applies to a very narrow scenario where it actually manages to proof a point whereas your "math" seems more like a generalized personal opinion disguised as math. If it's not clear - I agree that the NDK and Terminators are more point efficient in many situations but by far not all of them. Then there is the factor of "building around" something or "playing around" something to make units viable.

How do you build around 4x S8 AP2 shots per CH, re-rolling 1's to hit and to pen?

I actually felt a little bad for my snarkyness but your patronizing relieved me from any guilty feelings.

Two wrong do make a right...wait

Look, in a dream scenario, you deliver your Paladins unharmed to the Wraithknight. It swings, kills 3 on average dice. You are left with two, which I sure hope you took hammers on. You then need 'Hammerhand' and probably 'Force' as well to ensure the kill. Not to mention you're trading 335 points for 295 points. Even assuming they didn't kill the Raven you can in on (big if), the Eldar player is still ahead.

[Zembar]

For me, our saving grace is that d rolls are per model and not per unit. Sadly, this devalues paladins even farther, and that's not good.

 

The only result of the wraith knight d-weapons is really to devalue MCs, and though it hits us hard, I'm not convinced that's a bad thing. The problem is that it bereaves the GK of their only obvious strongpoint.

 

If we don't get a refresh soon, our only refuge will be tons of termies. While it might be fluffy, it will get boring, and that's my fear.

 

Ward might have gone too far, but letting the final stand against the forces of chaos be some space marines that get some bonuses but can't get a coherent force together can't be the answer.

[jeffersonian000]

 

 

A S8 AP1 weapon kills a T4 2W Paladin exactly the same way it kill a T4 1W GKT, or a T4 1W PAGK. However, you can take half again as many GKT as you can Paladins, and twice as many PAGK. This makes both GKT and PAGK more resilient to high Strenght, low AP weapons than Paladins. Paladins are more resilient versus Plasma, and even more resilient versus anti-light vehicle weapons and small arms. Yet, they are still more expensive than GKT for roughly the same resiliency. The math can be found all over this forum.

 

I'm sorry you feel defensive over being called out. Please try not to make falsifiable statements if you can't handle others noting errors in those statements.

I think you missunderstand me as you felt urged to include the whole termis vs paladins comparison that was so often reiterated that it is nothing new to anyone who joined this forum longer than a week. Your whole paragraph did not invalidate my point that paladins are in some situations superior to NDKs and TAGK. It even emphasizes it.

 

I actually felt a little bad for my snarkyness but your patronizing relieved me from any guilty feelings.

No, I pretty sure I get you exactly. You got a little mad that I called out your math, and now are trying to invalidate my statements. But that's okay, play your game however you want. Just playing GK is good enough for me!

 

SJ

[SyNidus]

Wraithknights aren't scary actually. Managed to knock one down using purge soul and psychic shriek before finishing him off in close combat. Ironically, being a gargantuan creature meant that Draigo dealt it 7 wounds in one round of combat. (Had hammer hand and force on).

 

EDIT: from shriek and purge soul it lost 3 wounds.

[jeffersonian000]

Wraithknights aren't scary actually. Managed to knock one down using purge soul and psychic shriek before finishing him off in close combat. Ironically, being a gargantuan creature meant that Draigo dealt it 7 wounds in one round of combat. (Had hammer hand and force on).

 

EDIT: from shriek and purge soul it lost 3 wounds.

Good to hear!

 

I have yet to face the newer version, nor field mine.

 

SJ

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Do all modern Grey knight tactics really revolve around Dreadknights?
How well do Grey knights go with knights usually?

[jeffersonian000]

I take Draigo, a Libby, 10 GKT, 5 Interceptors, 2 NDK, and a Knight Errant at 1850. Works swimmingly.

 

SJ

[Prot]

Wraithknights aren't scary actually. Managed to knock one down using purge soul and psychic shriek before finishing him off in close combat. Ironically, being a gargantuan creature meant that Draigo dealt it 7 wounds in one round of combat. (Had hammer hand and force on).

 

EDIT: from shriek and purge soul it lost 3 wounds.

 

Wow. Nice. Force does what against a Gargantuan Creature? (I can't remember but I know it can't insta kill).  I would have been worried about Draigo getting smoked though because the 'removed from play' can come into effect there, can't it?

[Everon]

 

 

Wraithknights aren't scary actually. Managed to knock one down using purge soul and psychic shriek before finishing him off in close combat. Ironically, being a gargantuan creature meant that Draigo dealt it 7 wounds in one round of combat. (Had hammer hand and force on).

 

EDIT: from shriek and purge soul it lost 3 wounds.

Wow. Nice. Force does what against a Gargantuan Creature? (I can't remember but I know it can't insta kill). I would have been worried about Draigo getting smoked though because the 'removed from play' can come into effect there, can't it?

Force does d3 wounds and also, eternal warrior for the win

[Aethernitas]

No, I pretty sure I get you exactly. You got a little mad that I called out your math, and now are trying to invalidate my statements. But that's okay, play your game however you want. Just playing GK is good enough for me!

 

Ok this is getting really exhausting but I will try to clear this up.

 

So the scenario I am talking about since post #32 is that I want to use paladins in Ravens to engage the WK. In my original statement (post #32) I said that even against two Crimson Hunters I still get to deliver the Ravens payload if jinking.

 

You then "call me out" for the version were I mathhammered the hp the Crimson Hunters do to the Raven in one turn to show that if you jink you can clearly survive till you drop the payload. I dunno why you added the paladin math there. That wasn't relevant to anything I was talking about as the only shooting happening would be the overwatch from the WK.

 

So instead of calling me out what you really did is not read my post. I'm aware that my mathhammer posts get a bit long and I'm ok if anyone just wants to skip them, but implying that you read them and using that to call me out on something when the error is yours is just not cool.

 

Wraithknights aren't scary actually. Managed to knock one down using purge soul and psychic shriek before finishing him off in close combat. Ironically, being a gargantuan creature meant that Draigo dealt it 7 wounds in one round of combat. (Had hammer hand and force on).

EDIT: from shriek and purge soul it lost 3 wounds.

 

 

I'm more interested in how you got Draigo into cc with the WK. He is a LoW after all and in roughly the same point category as the WK. Draigo is also a cc best so a ranged D-weapon WK should be fodder for him. The awesome thing is that Draigo even kills it with Initiative 5 so no lucky sixes on those stomps because no stomps at all. Yay :)

 

 

[Prot]

Yea this is what I meant... *if* Draigo gets stomped on a 6 his eternal war doesn't stop him from being removed from the table, does it?

[Everon]

I believe so, because the 'your ew? Pew pew no one care. Do not pass go, do not collect 200 credits. Go straight to the warp" is only 6s on the D table. Stomps have no D value.

[SyNidus]

No, I pretty sure I get you exactly. You got a little mad that I called out your math, and now are trying to invalidate my statements. But that's okay, play your game however you want. Just playing GK is good enough for me!

Ok this is getting really exhausting but I will try to clear this up.

So the scenario I am talking about since post #32 is that I want to use paladins in Ravens to engage the WK. In my original statement (post #32) I said that even against two Crimson Hunters I still get to deliver the Ravens payload if jinking.

You then "call me out" for the version were I mathhammered the hp the Crimson Hunters do to the Raven in one turn to show that if you jink you can clearly survive till you drop the payload. I dunno why you added the paladin math there. That wasn't relevant to anything I was talking about as the only shooting happening would be the overwatch from the WK.

So instead of calling me out what you really did is not read my post. I'm aware that my mathhammer posts get a bit long and I'm ok if anyone just wants to skip them, but implying that you read them and using that to call me out on something when the error is yours is just not cool.

Wraithknights aren't scary actually. Managed to knock one down using purge soul and psychic shriek before finishing him off in close combat. Ironically, being a gargantuan creature meant that Draigo dealt it 7 wounds in one round of combat. (Had hammer hand and force on).

EDIT: from shriek and purge soul it lost 3 wounds.

I'm more interested in how you got Draigo into cc with the WK. He is a LoW after all and in roughly the same point category as the WK. Draigo is also a cc best so a ranged D-weapon WK should be fodder for him. The awesome thing is that Draigo even kills it with Initiative 5 so no lucky sixes on those stomps because no stomps at all. Yay

The Batreps are up. And as for how i got him into combat - Gate of Infinity and santic buffs, cornered it and beat it down.

[Aethernitas]

Yea this is what I meant... *if* Draigo gets stomped on a 6 his eternal war doesn't stop him from being removed from the table, does it?

 

Nope, nothing does. That's why I hate the randomness behind the sixes on d-weapons and stomps, though stomps are every worse as you can pretty much sniper models with it.