Fighting Eldar: Challenge Accepted

[Adeptus]

 

I always run 3 per 10. But then, I'm crazy and usually run 10 man Terminator squads.

 

I run 10man squads as well, with is why I recommend X of something per 5 models. Makes things easier when I combat squad them.

 

I for once think the 5man squads superior as they manage to actually stay in combat during the opponents turn which for me is a success.

 

I'm interested in your reasoning. Why run 10man over 5man squads?

 

 

I like how it looks. I like the psychological effect of dumping ten man termi blobs down in my opponents face. I like the economy of action (where Sanctuary or Prescience affects ten models instead of five). I like being able to combat squad if I want to, or keep my ten man blobs if I want.

 

A side effect is that I think 2 hammers per 5 is too much, and 1 per 5 is too few, but I find 3 per 10 is just right :)

[jeffersonian000]

 

 

I always run 3 per 10. But then, I'm crazy and usually run 10 man Terminator squads.

I run 10man squads as well, with is why I recommend X of something per 5 models. Makes things easier when I combat squad them.

I for once think the 5man squads superior as they manage to actually stay in combat during the opponents turn which for me is a success.

 

I'm interested in your reasoning. Why run 10man over 5man squads?

I marked the part where I explained why.

 

To touch on it further, some times you want to deny kill points, other times you want you to spread out with multiple units. Being able to combat squad as needed is one more tool in your tool box for fixing problems on the fly.

 

SJ

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Combat Squads is a very powerful rule. And yeah, I agree, I think go big with Terminators or don't bother. They're a unit that gets exponentially better the more you bring. At 30 Terminators, plus 2-4 DK's, you're reaching a point of saturation where AP2 stops being relevant. Because at best, they're nuking one Combat squad or DK a turn, and it's not enough. 

 

I'm currently writing lists for my League, and at 2500 I'm seriously considering going 30 Terminators. 

[Prot]

This is something I don't do enough. I keep getting stuck in a 'maelstrom' mindset, but the reality is the Combat Squad feature is always available.

 

One other flexiblity I like is dividing squads by wargear to make them role specific. So half the terminator squad you are certain will be denying an area, whereas another half is going to be going toe to toe... it makes dividing the weapons up easier, and more beneficial than the old split of 1 special per 5.

 

The other thing I've come to (try) to take advantage of is a Apothecary for a larger squad. It's the instant death that completely robs this expensive choice though, so even if I do take Paladins, it's always a smaller squad... if at all.

 

Back to Eldar and Terminators, the problem I've run into with the spammy Eldar is the blob squad of Guardians, actually trying to manipulate close combat. It's an interesting dilemma because cleansing flame actualy works best here I found. Otherwise with the Dreadknights get stuck on flame duty and can't assault anything you actually want to. (who wants to get bogged down in a cloud of flies?)

 

I'm going back to try something else that kind of gets a bad wrap: Gatling Psilencers. The struggle here is my love of Heavy Incinerators, and of course the almost 'mandatory' effectiveness of Psycannons in place of true heavy weapons. I can't help but think this whole thing would be solved if we could simply carry a third weapon on our shoulders like the new Knights!!!

 

Seriously though, multi-wound goofiness, doing D3 wounds per unsaved wound.... oh wait, what am I thinking? The toughness is 8 on these things isn't it? Ugh. Back to hammers.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

One other flexiblity I like is dividing squads by wargear to make them role specific. So half the terminator squad you are certain will be denying an area, whereas another half is going to be going toe to toe... it makes dividing the weapons up easier, and more beneficial than the old split of 1 special per 5.

 

Yep definitely. Split the psycannons off with your Libby so they can be twin-linked. Hammer(s) go in the other squad, as a close-combat threat instead. Combat Squads is one of the best rules in the game at diluting enemy firepower. Of course, the flipside is it's easier to snipe the hammer or psycannons out. Pros and cons. 

The other thing I've come to (try) to take advantage of is a Apothecary for a larger squad. It's the instant death that completely robs this expensive choice though, so even if I do take Paladins, it's always a smaller squad... if at all.

 

Honestly, just take an Allied Terminator Librarian with Biomancy, or a BA Priest with either Angel Wing or TDA. You even get Scout squads laying down teleport homers to guide your Terminators in Turn 1. Paladins are just never worth it dude. 

Back to Eldar and Terminators, the problem I've run into with the spammy Eldar is the blob squad of Guardians, actually trying to manipulate close combat. It's an interesting dilemma because cleansing flame actualy works best here I found. Otherwise with the Dreadknights get stuck on flame duty and can't assault anything you actually want to. (who wants to get bogged down in a cloud of flies?)

 

>Guardians

It's why the Emperor blessed us with the holy heavy incinerator. Also, blast mode on heavy psycannon turns them into shredded meat. 

I'm going back to try something else that kind of gets a bad wrap: Gatling Psilencers. The struggle here is my love of Heavy Incinerators, and of course the almost 'mandatory' effectiveness of Psycannons in place of true heavy weapons. I can't help but think this whole thing would be solved if we could simply carry a third weapon on our shoulders like the new Knights!!!

 

Nah the Gat is fine I think. It has an niche, and it's an otherwise okay anti-infantry gun. Heavy incinerator is our primary BBQ method for anything not in 3+ or 2+ armour, and heavy psycannon is our flexible 'can hurt nearly anything' gun which is why it's default. Biggest issue with the Gat is it can't kill the more annoying MC's in the game. Riptides just 2+ save the few wounds you do cause, WK are immune to S4 (unless you put 'Misfortune' on it), Flyrants/Nurgle Princes just dodge all your shots...frustrating. It still blows up multi-wound infantry just fine, and the balanced MC's all hate it (one failed armour save is GG). 

Seriously though, multi-wound goofiness, doing D3 wounds per unsaved wound.... oh wait, what am I thinking? The toughness is 8 on these things isn't it? Ugh. Back to hammers.

 

Yeah, slow clap for game balance. GW actually make our worst special ranged weapon into a viable niche choice against multi-wound and MC's...then they upgrade an existing MC which was already plenty strong, into a game-warping monstrosity which our Gat can't touch because 'lol double Toughness of Strength'. 

[Prot]

This reminds me, I just had a game with my Ultra's, and had Divination running Tiggy around with Centurions. It occurred to me that much of what we do, especially a Gatling Psilencer is well suited to Divination. That being said I feel an emotional attachment to Sanctic abilities with Grey Knights.

[Aethernitas]

Ok so the consensus seems to be taking 10 man units and combat squad them most of the time which is exactly how I field terminators even though Adeptus reasoning for actually fielding 10 man blobs seems perfectly fine.

 

Against Eldar I could see myself prefering 10 man units on the battlefield as bigger blobs give a higher chance of cornering the WK which I tend to hunt with deep-striking terminators. It also gives you more wounds to hide you hammers in and, like Adeptus said, more economic buffs that we will desperately need against Eldar.

 

The thing is I DS my terminators extremely aggressive (within 2" of the WKs short side) to catch it even after jumping 12". A bigger squad may hurt my ability to place all the models in this scenario so I'm still on the fence on this.

[jeffersonian000]

I'm actually against specializing my squads. As I run them functionally the same, they can be used interchangeably, with the right gear for the job. Yes, I know that you may want more Psycannkns in one group ... unit that group gets locked in combat, then what are those Psycannons doing for you?

 

I like being able to split off a fire base to that can hold an objective without limiting the other squad. That goes for GKT and PAGK.

 

SJ

[Captain Coolpants]

I tend to not specialise my squads either.

 

Of your opponent has half a brain, they'll focus and kill the one that's currently the most threatening to them.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

This reminds me, I just had a game with my Ultra's, and had Divination running Tiggy around with Centurions. It occurred to me that much of what we do, especially a Gatling Psilencer is well suited to Divination. That being said I feel an emotional attachment to Sanctic abilities with Grey Knights.

 

Divination is our premier psychic lore. Literally every power has utility with us (even Sciers Gaze, although it's random so you still need Comms Array), and the Primaris is hands down on the best Blessings in the game. I know that you've been on a roll with Vortex shenanigans lately, but that may not last lol. Divination is your go to choice I feel. It has no bad matchups (it's all Blessings with one Malediction), it's cost-effective (the Primaris is the most expensive power haha), and it works with whatever list you bring. Sanctic really wants you to roll Lore Master for Warlord and take the Dominus Liber to be truly effective. 

Ok so the consensus seems to be taking 10 man units and combat squad them most of the time which is exactly how I field terminators even though Adeptus reasoning for actually fielding 10 man blobs seems perfectly fine.

 

Against Eldar I could see myself prefering 10 man units on the battlefield as bigger blobs give a higher chance of cornering the WK which I tend to hunt with deep-striking terminators. It also gives you more wounds to hide you hammers in and, like Adeptus said, more economic buffs that we will desperately need against Eldar.

 

The thing is I DS my terminators extremely aggressive (within 2" of the WKs short side) to catch it even after jumping 12". A bigger squad may hurt my ability to place all the models in this scenario so I'm still on the fence on this.

 

The other thing to consider is Interceptor. Against say InterTides, you'll wanna combat squad to screw with their target priority and reduce their damage (ie they can only vapourise 5 Terminators per Tide at best). If you're having trouble placing 10 Terminators, then yeah combat squad and spread out more. 

I'm actually against specializing my squads. As I run them functionally the same, they can be used interchangeably, with the right gear for the job. Yes, I know that you may want more Psycannkns in one group ... unit that group gets locked in combat, then what are those Psycannons doing for you?

 

I like being able to split off a fire base to that can hold an objective without limiting the other squad. That goes for GKT and PAGK.

 

Well you can leave a hammer with the psycannon combat squad, to bail them out of bad melee situations. My experience though is that most melee's, our GKT's stomp face. You need either 2+ armour, Eternal Warrior or have a lot of attacks at I5+ to wipe GKT's out before they can do damage. 

 

The reason for leaving both psycannons in the same combat squad is so you can 'Prescience' efficiently. Of course, to be truly efficient, you'd keep them as 10-man so one Blessing can affect all of them. 

 

It's a judgement call. Combat Squads is great because it's completely optional. A lot of 40k rules aren't, and it's a good thing. 

I tend to not specialise my squads either. 

 

Of your opponent has half a brain, they'll focus and kill the one that's currently the most threatening to them. 

 

That's why you always take multiples of everything (except HQ's, although that's debatable as well). 2-3 of a unit is ideal, as it means you can lose one and still keep going with the other. 

[jeffersonian000]

I don't bother with Prescience, as Sanctic has what I want, so that does color my point of view a bit. Glad to hear specializing works for you! It throws a wrench in my plans, which is why I don't do it.

 

SJ

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I don't bother with Prescience, as Sanctic has what I want, so that does color my point of view a bit. Glad to hear specializing works for you! It throws a wrench in my plans, which is why I don't do it.

 

*Divination, lol. It is basically 'oh sweet re-rolls...and some other cool stuff' the lore though haha ;)

 

I don't see it as specialisation. If anything, Sanctic is kinda specialised and at times redundant. It also has the worst Primaris in the game. 'Hammerhand' is kinda pointless when you roll it, 'Sanctuary' is really only good on Terminators (DK's already have it as well), 'Purge Soul' is interesting but it's a mediocre Mind War normally. The money powers are of course 'Gate', 'Cleansing Flame' and 'Vortex'. Bit like Telepathy in that regard. 

[jeffersonian000]

A bit. But on a Warlord Liber Libby, I'm basically rolling for the one power I don't get. All of Sanctic, even the meh powers, are force multipliers, which pumps up the "count" of our low model count army. Being able to remove an enemy unit, reposition, then remove another is pretty key to winning. Yes, Divination has good things. So does Sanctic, and GKs have the benefit of synergizing with Sanctic.

 

SJ

[Prot]

I don't bother with Prescience, as Sanctic has what I want, so that does color my point of view a bit. Glad to hear specializing works for you! It throws a wrench in my plans, which is why I don't do it.

 

SJ

 

 

Since I also play Ultra's, I have to confess the Prescience (and if lucky, very lucky, getting the power that -removes- cover) is very good if you plan for it.

 

I could see a 10 man combated Termie squad, Libby, GM giving you 3 Psycannons with Re-rolls. With the possibility of removing cover.... I like the sound of that.

 

Plus since Prescience works in close combat.... that's a pretty darn decent all comer's kind of unit right there. Sure it's going to get shot at, but that's the beauty of making them ignore your NDKs.

 

- I'd love to try this against a Wraithknight.

[jeffersonian000]

Well, with my Space Marines, I wouldn't touch Sanctic if you paid me, and of course would take Divination, or Telepathy. But GK aren't your genetic SM, and Sanctic was designed for them.

 

SJ

[Aethernitas]

So has anyone here actually played some matches against the new Eldar? Our two Eldar players are kinda inactive due to their studies so I can't share a lot of hands-on experiences. I'm especially interested in matchups against lots of jetbikes and the Wraith-host detachment.

[Prot]

So has anyone here actually played some matches against the new Eldar? Our two Eldar players are kinda inactive due to their studies so I can't share a lot of hands-on experiences. I'm especially interested in matchups against lots of jetbikes and the Wraith-host detachment.

 

I have, and did a full batrep on it here I thought? (In these forums)

 

Long story short; I had my first lost in about 10 plus games.... Not saying that *I* am good, just saying that the Eldar was good. The wraithknight was a shooty variant.

 

What really tooled me though was I went all out and knew I had to go to him...he knew it too. Where this gave me a problem was his artillery... D weapon Artillery. Ouch. I lost a lot of wounds from that, and the way shooting at artillery works in 7th, it's exceptionally resilient if you can't get into cc with it.

 

I did a lot of work to that artillery but failed to kill it off. On top of it, (I know I mentioned this before) he was playing a shooty WK so he bubble wrapped it in junk. I could not clear it out with my NDK's.... so I never even got to assault the WK.

 

A little surprise: He cancelled more than a few of my powers; he had a fair pile of cancel dice which I'm not used to seeing.

 

Also, anything that wasn't a terminator rarely had saves. IE: my purifiers went down without saves. It was simply just too much stuff... my Interceptors also died mostly without saves... The Termies were simply overwhelmed with D templates (artillery) or D shots (WK) and to be honest it was surprising to me we were playing the same points value. He just seemed to have so many units on the table even WITH the Wraithknight compared to me.

 

I'll be better prepared next time. It was my first crack against the new-dar. (I tried something VERY aggressive, and it didn't work.)

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

I had a game today, against two wraithnights, a falcon, 2 bikeseers and as amnay scatter and shurican jetbikes he could fit.
I was tabled turn three, having caused a wound on one farseer and one on each wraithlord, the sheer amount of fire power he could bring whilst also bringing survivability meant I might as well have packed up turn two, as he was able to destroy all my heavy support/units that could hurt the wraithknights and cnacell my pyschic powers.

Least fun game I've had in a long time, and now thinking of insisting no wraithknights or just refusing to play eldar.

[Aethernitas]

I have, and did a full batrep on it here I thought? (In these forums)

Yes you did and I just looked it up. Read like quite the one-sided massacre similar to Ridcullys game. I can't say I look forward to my first game against Eldar after those batreps

[TheMostGood]

All I have is the Nemesis Force box, a Lib, Dragio, and 6 extra terminators. My friend asked me if I wanted to play my GKs against his Eldar, and I told him no way. I didn't have the right units for it. Maybe I'm jut pessimistic, but I don't think I'd be able to even catch his guys, and all that fire power would just take me out. I guess I should just try, but I've already had a game where he effectively tabled me with my Tau turn 2. 

[jeffersonian000]

I haven't tried it yet, still working out strats on how to deal with them with my core list. We'll see. I might have to reconfigure to include a second Knight Titan.

 

SJ

[Prot]

Just as a side note, I would slam Draigo into that Wraithknight any day.....

 

All I have is the Nemesis Force box, a Lib, Dragio, and 6 extra terminators. My friend asked me if I wanted to play my GKs against his Eldar, and I told him no way. I didn't have the right units for it. Maybe I'm jut pessimistic, but I don't think I'd be able to even catch his guys, and all that fire power would just take me out. I guess I should just try, but I've already had a game where he effectively tabled me with my Tau turn 2. 

 

So after my game I just asked the Eldar dude, pointy ears and all, to have a 1v1 vs Draigo with his Wraithknight.

 

We did a lot of rounds. We did 3 rounds with Draigo allowed to cast psychic abilities, hammerhand, and Sanc. Some with force...

 

I (er I mean Draigo) won all of them. 

 

We did another 3 rounds of combat where I said no Psychic powers for Draigo. Draigo won again.

 

Keep in mind I confess my rolling was really hot for that, and his was mediocre. So the other important thing here is he was playing the shooty variant so his attacks were limited. AND it wasn't that the Wraithknight was punting me around so much, it was its shooting, and the fact I couldn't get to it.

 

So what I'm saying here is, if you can catch your opponent off guard, and get Draigo going toe to toe with the WK, you have a good chance. You'll probably only get one shot at it though, because Draigo is good at this sort of thing, but be forewarned, if he gets lucky, and you don't have Sanc running.... may the dice gods be with you. :)

 

But again, it was getting to the bugger that was the problem. He just had so much shooting and low AP/D on the table it really sucked. It reminded (a bit) of my Tau game, just putting figs in the box with minimal saves. 

 

I think Sanctuary is getting so bloody important against these high end armies now, I'm thinking of just taking Stern to be sure. The Skittari / AdMech seem like more of the same. On top of Tau and Eldar, I feel like running an Astra army or something.

 

Not to be a party pooper but when you're paying 400 points a squad approximately, for a Libby and Termies, you get this sinking feeling when you only get to roll 5++ as you put them back in the box. lol

 

It is doable though. I'd say go for it, and hit him hard with Draigo. Swing for the kneecaps, and prey to the Emperor. ;)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Welcome to 7th edition. Where Marines die faster than Guardsmen or Tyranids. 

 

It's rapidly becoming ludicrous how easily we get table wiped. New Eldar are really stupid, even more so than Necrons. 

 

The big test is the new Marine book dropping soon. If GW hasn't got their finger out and given vanilla Marines some solid tools to deal with the insane AP2/3 spam in the game, and the big stompy things like Knight-Titans and Wraithknights...yeesh. I don't feel so bad about us suffering, we're kinda the extreme expression of Marine design (tiny army that hits like a freight train). But if vanilla Marines can't do it? 8th is just gonna be another xenos edition. 

 

Back on topic then, what Allies do we feel can mitigate our disadvantages? 

 

Skitarii: Cheap firepower, and they can Scout into an early shooting position in their special detachment. Onagers also offer solid AA and fire support whilst being everything Dreadnoughts aren't. Their fragility is a bit annoying though. 

Imperial Guard: They bring a lot of numbers, cheap psykers, Orders (like additional psychic powers in a lot of ways), solid vehicle roster...I'm just finding it hard to write lists that work with them. 

Blood Angels: One thing I hadn't considered until recently was Sanguimancy. The primaris is fantastic on DK's, as it means they can swing at I5 and thus at least take the WK down with them. BA also bring empty FA pods and Infiltrating+Scouting teleport homers on Scouts. 

 

Any other thoughts guys?

[SyNidus]

So has anyone here actually played some matches against the new Eldar? Our two Eldar players are kinda inactive due to their studies so I can't share a lot of hands-on experiences. I'm especially interested in matchups against lots of jetbikes and the Wraith-host detachment.

I've had quite a few matches against Eldar, the batreps are here: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306947-sys-long-overdue-batreps/

 

The wraith host detachment isn't too scary really, they're more short ranged than we are and have a comparable number of models. Really the D weapons are only scary for our multi-wound models.

 

The Jetbikes were a little harder, but they die under weight of fire, which is something we can dish out lots of. You need to use the physical dimensions of the table to corner them. Once you've got them trapped, they have 2 options, either stick around and try to gun us down before we get into combat, or turbo-boost away in which case they lose their shots for that turn.

 

The seer council presents some difficulty because they have a comparable number of dice in the psychic phase.

 

Overall, you have to play quite aggressively, but you have to be tactical about it.

 

 

EDIT: In regards to the wraith host, your priority targets are the Spiritseer first, then the Wraithguard. Btw Psyk out grenades are great for making sniping the Spiritseer. Once the Wraithguard squads have been dealt with, you can deal with the rest. You need to get in close, he'll do a lot of shooting, but if you can get into CC, you'll be fine. Bonus points if you can charge into multiple units at the same time.

[TheMostGood]

 

 

Something that after watching Wraithknights in action I've considered, is we may see the D-sword+shield combo more often than the dual cannons. The WK is a Jump GC, which means it has the speed to get into melee quickly unaided. It's also a great target for 'Invisibility' and 'Fortune', and even without those buffs it's very difficult to slay at range (T8, 3+ armour, 5+ invul, 5+ FNP). It's a great assault unit, and will probably kill more in melee than at range anyway (at least IMO). 

 

This is something my Eldar friend has not discovered yet. He continues to use the dual cannon WK variant. While it has OK shooting, the melee one would be absolutely terrifying to my Tau and GKs.