World eaters 2250 - Final list (Now with added tactics!)

[The Nookie]

This is just my two cents but I don't think you should write of World Eaters so quickly, I think they could be very competitive as a shooting army that has the option of falling back on close combat, rather than an army that relies on it.  I used to play Black Templars (still do, but with the older rulebook and less often) and I've generally found that getting the enemy to come to you in some way (wipe out transports, deepstrike next to objectives) worked out really well even when my BT's were FAQ'd to get rage, much like what the current World Eaters have and I still won the majority of games I played with them because people really weren't expecting mid-long ranged units to also be good at close combat.

 

Let's look at this another way, if you have a 20 man tactical squad with extra close combat weapons, they can move up the board to objectives, firing away at far off enemies, when anybody comes close you use Fury of the Legion with your Bolt Pistols then charge into close combat giving you +2 Attacks on the enemy (+3 attacks on them if they don't have two close combat weapons), quite a huge advantage especially if your enemy is distracted by Heavy Support Squads blowing up their Medusa's (or just a distraction Vindicator, people love to focus on those things) to care about the tactical squad that can also dish out the pain as if it was a dedicated close combat squad.  Even if somebody deepstrikes/infiltrates next to your Heavy Support Squads you could just charge anyway as you'll still receive a pretty big boost to your attacks (set up the Sergeant right and he'll have 5 attacks with a power axe), and if you wanted to you could even try baiting this sort of thing.

 

Soooo I will concede that there is a somewhat valid point in your argument, yes you CAN turn them into a shooty army...the difference is that they excel in one specific area...close combat...so to make them good at shooting you have to spend more points than other legions that excel in shooting to get a version thats less effective, that can also be good in close combat. But for the world eaters to excel at what they do, and to make their traits more valuable you need to kill things in close combat...

 

For the points collectively needed to turn them into effective shooters, you could take other traits and units that will make them even better at the thing they are designed for, close combat...

 

I take a Deredeo, Fire Raptor, and Spartan to compensate for shooting in my army, and that lets my troops focus on what theyre best for

[Triacom]

 

Soooo I will concede that there is a somewhat valid point in your argument, yes you CAN turn them into a shooty army...the difference is that they excel in one specific area...close combat...so to make them good at shooting you have to spend more points than other legions that excel in shooting to get a version thats less effective, that can also be good in close combat. But for the world eaters to excel at what they do, and to make their traits more valuable you need to kill things in close combat...

 

 

You fail to see what I'm saying.  Playing to your strengths is a good idea, but don't ever let that lock you into one and only one playstyle.  Do you know why my Black Templars were a really good shooting army?  Because people were scared to get close enough to charge them and had to trek across the board (getting shot at in the process) to do that with their dedicated assault units because I blew up their transports.  Any time anybody  got close or chose to deepstrike/infiltrate near me I just charged them and crushed them in close combat since my regular characters put out 5 attacks with a power weapon (yes, this is the unit champion doing this, all regular Marines could throw out 3-4 attacks depending on what other equipment they had and my characters would put out 6-8 Power Weapons attacks depending on their additional equipment).  My Crusader Squads also did this even though they had Heavy Weapons in their unit, and World Eaters can replicate this as well.

 

Here's another way of looking at it, what's the biggest weakness of shooting armies?  Close combat.  What are World Eaters really good at, even when you're using Heavy Support Squads?  Close combat.  By using the World Eaters as a shooting army and if you pick options smartly (so that they support each other and all fill a niche) you can make a very strong ranged army with no inherent weaknesses whatsoever for your enemy to exploit.  Deep Striking Raven Guard or Infiltrating Alpha Legion/Death Guard?  Sweet, your Heavy Weapons squads (with an extra character like an Apothecary) can take them in close combat, something no other Legion can claim to do.  

 

Even Angron helps with this role as having a massive fearless bubble means you effectively do not have to worry about ranged casualties, at all, and if somebody gets close/deepstrikes Angron can just charge and wipe them out without much fear of retaliation because you're all the way across the board and usually have LoS blocking terrain stopping pot shots at him (Black Templar Marshals used to work very similarly, even though they had a great statline you'd keep one way in the back as a buffer to your army and a defender against deepstrikers).  On the flip side if you have him and your normal close combat units charge into the enemy you'll wipe out the enemy unit, then get destroyed in the next shooting phase because you're near the heart of the enemy army and completely exposed (something I learned with Sword Brethren Terminators and you've found with the Red Butchers).

 

Finally I'm not saying that you have to build you list as a shooting list (build them however you like), I was responding to the statement that World Eaters are probably not competitive, because there's definitely competitive ways to build them, they just aren't conventional ones and I'm giving my reasons as to why.

 

EDIT:  There's one thing I don't get that you said though: "so to make them good at shooting you have to spend more points than other legions that excel in shooting to get a version thats less effective" HOW is that the case?  World Eater Heavy Support Squads are no more expensive than Emperor's Children or Word Bearers, and the legions that do receive shooting buffs are negligible (if that) so long as you have a Master of Signal, which almost every shooting army has anyway.  The only shooting armies I can think of that have a slight leg up on you are the Imperial Fists and Iron Warrios.  The Fists thanks to increased BS, but that only applies to Bolters, which you shouldn't really fear much anyway.  Just get some Volkite Culverins, buff yourself up to BS5 then fry them (or pie plate them from so far that they cannot use their increased BS at all).  

As for the Warriors, they have very expensive shooty units, so long as you cause a few casualties against the Siege Tyrants (Medusa's will shred them) you can make points back extremely quickly, and getting into shooting matches with Havoc Squads isn't so bad so long as you're the one with the most guns (given how points heavy Tyrants are and how prevalent they are this is very likely).  I'm certainly not going to claim Havoc's are not effective, but they're still more expensive than your Heavy Support Squads which you'll usually have more of.

[Fangbanger]

I hear what you are saying and you are right however heavy support squads are very pricey for what they do.

 

Take a unit of culverins. For 8 it's going to set you back 275 as let's face it 5 is too squishy. 335 if you want a slightly more resilient 10. Add to this your master of signal and you have 370 for him and 8 guys.

 

For only 285 points you can get a 20 man tac squad with a power fist and artificer armour and a vexilla. You have more than double the men and swapping there bolters for axes and the WE special rules you have a huge amount of attacks. You can even choose to give them additional axe if you want to keep the bolters still for less points than the heavy support squad. Sure, you will no doubt want to stick them in a spartan for safe delivery (although not essential if you are running a few units) but this also acts as anti tank and a huge bullet magnet saving other units.

 

What's more for the points of a 10 man squad and MOS you can get yourself a deredeo AND a sicaran which are going to be far more survivable with that Spartan charging up the field offering support, AA, ANti tank (with rending and sunder respectively) and allowing you to build your force around the WE cc strengths.

 

I get what you are saying, you can turn the nuts and bolts units into shooters and add some heavy weapons teams, but I feel that making your bread and butter units CC orientated whilst backing it up with more resilient units is more efficient, survivable and cost effective

 

Loving the discussion by the way!

[Memento Of Prospero]

The only way to succeed with a CC oriented army under 7th edition rules is to force your enemy forward. If you cannot achieve that, you will most likely lose all the time.

 

That is acheived through shooting in this game. Having the ability to dig your opponent out will force him forward, and once that is acheived, your natural close combat ability will carry through the rest of the day.

[The Nookie]

@Triacom I understand what you are tying to say, and the point you are making, I guess my response did not come out the way I wanted it too, i definitely conceded that you can make a list that goes against the conventional ways of running a legion, my only point is that, yes, like your black templars, you can make them shoot and have the advantage once the enemy comes close to you, or deep strikes, or infiltrates...however, my point is that for the points it would cost me to make the army effective at shooting, and still good in combat it takes more points than other legions, in addition, if i'm facing a shooting list, they're not charging up the board at me, they staying away shooting...In addition, if the enemy deep strikes then they are most likely in my deployment zone and I do not have one of the traits of the world eaters, in addition if I win combat I have to move towards the nearest enemy unit and that makes me more open to enemy shots in the following turn...thats all I was trying to get at

 

If you find a way to make an effective shooting world eaters list i'd love to see it! 

 

The point i'm making with more points than other legions comes with this: firstly like you said iron warriors, and imperial fists have better stats, iron hands have increased toughness and more upgrades and protection for vehicles that could aim to shooting, in addition to that to make a unit of world eaters, or any troops have bolters and chain weapons it costs more points. Most long ranged focused armies don't worry about additional close combat weapons, cause they're not aimed to get into combat, so they not trying to move up the board...so if I am to make it a close combat and long ranged option it costs more points...

 

So again, I don't ever mean to sound closed minded, but I'm just posting counter points to raise discussions, and see other people's points, In the region i'm playing near and test playing people do not necessarily fight like that (meaning both close combat and shooty) 

[Triacom]

The only way to succeed with a CC oriented army under 7th edition rules is to force your enemy forward. If you cannot achieve that, you will most likely lose all the time.

 

That is acheived through shooting in this game. Having the ability to dig your opponent out will force him forward, and once that is acheived, your natural close combat ability will carry through the rest of the day.

Bingo, you get what I'm saying, the main reason I started playing BT's as a shooting army is because the current game is very heavily biased towards shooting armies and that was the only way I had of making them an effective army.

 

As for Fangbanger, the Legion Tactical Squads, while having greater numbers are still not as effective as the Heavy Support Squads who fire 2X as many shots (or equal shots if the enemy uses FoTL) with fewer marines at higher strengths at almost twice the range.  On average one unit of ten Culverins will cause 9+ unsaved wounds on a Tactical Squad, who will still be well out of range for firing back.  With a Master of Signal you'll cause 11+ wounds (nearly twelve) on a tactical squad, and as my Tau opponents have shown me you don't need to fear what can't attack back.

 

I'm certainly not going to debate that a Deredero is more versatile (field the squad with missile launchers and I think they're more versatile than a Sicaran though more expensive), though I will argue that they are more survivable, especially if your opponent is packing at least one Venator which I've seen destroy a Spartan that had a Flare Shield.  It's all in what you want to do though, each unit has their own uses, pros and cons so use them how you like because there are very little overpriced units in the list aside from very obvious ones like Assault squads (which I think are about 50 points too expensive) and destroyer squads.

 

@Triacom I understand what you are tying to say, and the point you are making, I guess my response did not come out the way I wanted it too, i definitely conceded that you can make a list that goes against the conventional ways of running a legion, my only point is that, yes, like your black templars, you can make them shoot and have the advantage once the enemy comes close to you, or deep strikes, or infiltrates...however, my point is that for the points it would cost me to make the army effective at shooting, and still good in combat it takes more points than other legions, in addition, if i'm facing a shooting list, they're not charging up the board at me, they staying away shooting...In addition, if the enemy deep strikes then they are most likely in my deployment zone and I do not have one of the traits of the world eaters, in addition if I win combat I have to move towards the nearest enemy unit and that makes me more open to enemy shots in the following turn...thats all I was trying to get at

 

The point i'm making with more points than other legions comes with this: firstly like you said iron warriors, and imperial fists have better stats, iron hands have increased toughness and more upgrades and protection for vehicles that could aim to shooting, in addition to that to make a unit of world eaters, or any troops have bolters and chain weapons it costs more points. Most long ranged focused armies don't worry about additional close combat weapons, cause they're not aimed to get into combat, so they not trying to move up the board...so if I am to make it a close combat and long ranged option it costs more points...

 

So again, I don't ever mean to sound closed minded, but I'm just posting counter points to raise discussions, and see other people's points, In the region i'm playing near and test playing people do not necessarily fight like that (meaning both close combat and shooty) 

 

I appreciate the discussion, I'm just trying to say that you don't really need to put extra effort in to make them good at both close combat AND shooting.  Close combat you pretty much get for free when you picked World Eaters, so now you just need to worry about the shooting choices because your troops, even without additional Close Combat Weapons, are more effective on the turn they charge (usually the turn that matters) than the troops they're charging, even if the ones they're charging have additional Close Combat Weapons (you get 3 attacks to their 2 with regular marines).  Incidentally there's nothing wrong with a shooting list deepstriking a few units behind enemy lines.  Get some Javelins with Lascannons there and they'll wreck the weak rear armour of tanks for far less points, and can then turn their cyclone missile launchers on regular troops.  Granted you don't get any special benefit from using Javelins, but neither do any other Legions.

 

Iron Warriors also don't have increased Toughness, that's only Imperial Fists if they're using their Shieldwall rule (which you should thank them for because it means they must take at least 2 units of breacher squads which are very overpriced in games outside of Zone Mortalis).  Iron Warriors are the ones that don't take Morale Checks for shooting casualties, which you can easily replicate with a command squad (and since they have 2 attacks standard and access to power weapons they can double as deepstrike defence).

 

In addition, if the enemy deep strikes then they are most likely in my deployment zone and I do not have one of the traits of the world eaters,    Sorry but which trait are you losing?  The only trait you could lose is their Rite of War, which (no offence) I never thought was all that good compared to what you lose and compared to some of the generic ones.  Yes Hatred and AP2 Weapons will cause anybody you're up against to melt before you like a hot knife through butter (again, used to do this with Black Templar Terminators), but once again after they're gone you just get shot to pieces.

 

If you find a way to make an effective shooting world eaters list i'd love to see it!  I've been wondering the best way to do this ever since I saw them since they remind me so much of my Black Templars, here's a quick one I came up with, though it's more of an all-comers list rather than a strictly shooting list:

 

HQ: 190

 

2 Masters of Signal

 

ELITES: 660

 

Legion Rapier Weapons Battery X2 with Laser Destroyers

 

Apothecarion Detachement (2 models) with Power swords

 

2 Legion Dreadnoughts with extra Dreadnought CCW, 2 2 Gravitons (or melta, I haven't decided yet) and in Dreadnought Drop Pods

 

TROOPS: 420

 

Legion Tactical Squad in a Rhino with Artificer Armour, and a Nuncio Vox.

 

Legion Tactical Squad in a Rhino with Artificer Armour, and a Nuncio Vox.

 

HEAVY SUPPORT: 955

 

A Medusa Tank

 

A Sicaran Venator

 

2 Legion Heavy Support Squads with 9 marines each, 8 Volkite Culverins each, and a Power Weapon + Artificer Armour on the Sergeant.

 

This totals to 2250, as I wanted to keep it in line with the points level of the topic.  The idea is for the Rapier's to take out Transports, the Medusa's to wipe out blobs (and in a pinch kill tanks), the Volkite Culverins will take on infantry, light transports and fliers (between them I have 64 S6 shots).  The Apothecaries will sit with the Heavy Support Squads to keep them alive, the MoS's will stay with the Heavy Supports to buff my army and the tactical squads will take objectives as well as make LoS for my Barrage Weapons.  The purpose of the Dreadnoughts is not to take on units in close combat, but to deepstrike near enemy heavy weapons squads to scare them (they'll survive at least one round of shooting from inside the drop pod) and use Haywire weapons on tanks that are around them if not charge tank groups outright.  Lastly the reason I put Artificer Armour on some Sergeants but not power weapons is so that they can get shot by the AP3 weapons that'll be levelled against the squad and soak up wounds for the squad, which drastically increases their survivability.

 

Incidentally I don't want to hijack the thread (which is why the list is in a spoiler) and I don't think this is the most efficient way of going about this kind of list (I've other ideas about using Whirlwind's combined with Nuncio Vox's that would probably be more points efficient and it has some weaknesses I want to iron out) which is why I'm not going to update this list, when I've gotten a list I really like down I'll make a separate thread for it.

[Slips]

Couple of corrections Triacom:

 

He referenced Iron Hands when talking about extra toughness; it gets confusing sometimes, I know...

 

For the List: Masters of Signal, since the most recent FAQ cannot be compulsory HQ's, Sorry!

 

And, if you really want a painful Culverin Squad, give them a Librarian with Malediction and cast it on their Target. BAM Rending Culverins.

Though a Librarian is also a Support Officer so you'd still need another non-support HQ.

 

Edit: and, if there are more than one Dreadnoughts in a Talon, I don't think they can Take Pods.

[Fangbanger]

Where are you getting 9+ unsaved wounds from? That's just dreaming IMO.

 

Also the range of these comes in under a deredeo or an accelerator auto cannon. I can just never see myself fielding a heaven wepons team. For the cost you can get so many other better things as really against MEQ, you want plasma nit culverins.

 

Another thing to note us sure, the culverins would out range a tac squad, but that's not going to be the only thing firing back at you. That and the fact a lot of troops would most likely be in transports too make it an even bigger point sink for a unit that is par at best.

 

Obviously the opponents you play on a regukar basis will have a say in what units work best but I don't think heaven wepon squads are the best choice if you want to lay down some firepower

[Triacom]

Couple of corrections Triacom:

 

He referenced Iron Hands when talking about extra toughness; it gets confusing sometimes, I know...

 

For the List: Masters of Signal, since the most recent FAQ cannot be compulsory HQ's, Sorry!

 

And, if you really want a painful Culverin Squad, give them a Librarian with Malediction and cast it on their Target. BAM Rending Culverins.

Though a Librarian is also a Support Officer so you'd still need another non-support HQ.

 

Edit: and, if there are more than one Dreadnoughts in a Talon, I don't think they can Take Pods.

 

My bad, I did genuinely misread that as Iron Warriors, though I think my point still stands on Strengths with shooting armies, if you use something like Medusa's or Whirlwind Scorpius's, the Iron Hands player is going to quickly wish they had some other benefit.

 

That sucks for the MoS, thanks because I wasn't aware of that.  The Librarian is a neat idea but if I was getting one I'd have to go with Prescience over Misfortune since I've only got a 1/3 chance of getting it per game.  As I said though I'm not going to update the list because I don't want to hijack the thread in favour of my own list.

 

You're correct that two dreadnoughts in Drop Pods can't be in the same talon, but 30K allows 4 Elites slots and I only wrote it like that because they have the same equipment (I never meant for them to be in the same talon).

 

Where are you getting 9+ unsaved wounds from? That's just dreaming IMO.

 

Also the range of these comes in under a deredeo or an accelerator auto cannon. I can just never see myself fielding a heaven wepons team. For the cost you can get so many other better things as really against MEQ, you want plasma nit culverins.

 

Another thing to note us sure, the culverins would out range a tac squad, but that's not going to be the only thing firing back at you. That and the fact a lot of troops would most likely be in transports too make it an even bigger point sink for a unit that is par at best.

 

Obviously the opponents you play on a regukar basis will have a say in what units work best but I don't think heaven wepon squads are the best choice if you want to lay down some firepower

 

Just dreaming huh?  I'll post the average's here then:

 

10 Marines with 4 shots each = 40 shots.

40 shots hitting 0.6666% (2/3 because of BS4) of the time = 26.666 hits

26.666 hits wounding on 0.83333% (S6) of the time = 22.221 wounds

Wounds are saved 0.66666% (3+ armour) of the time = 7.407 unsaved wounds

Deflagrate means unsaved wounds cause additional hits.

7.407 hits wounding on 0.833333% (S6) of the time = 6.172 wounds

Wounds are saved 0.66666% (3+ armour) of the time = 2.057 unsaved wounds

2.057 + 7.407 = 9.464 unsaved wounds.

 

This is just simple mathhammer designed to show you on average what a unit is going to accomplish.  I'm also rounding down by not including a fourth digit because at that point it wouldn't matter much.  I'm also completely sure that Culverins would have no problem destroying a Rhino with 40 shots at S6 (or even most fliers), though if you want to take on heavier tanks like Spartans I'll agree you need the really big guns like Venator's, though you'll be glad for the Culverins when the Spartan is blown open.  Fun fact, Culverins put out so many shots at S6 that a squad of 10 will kill Angron in one turn of shooting (10 marines cause 5.184 wounds on him and he only has 5 wounds).

 

Plasma not Culverins huh?  All right, I'll look at something you might like a bit more and we can compare the two, let's go with a support squad all armed with plasma guns since that's what I think you're referring to:

 

10 Marines with 2 shots each = 20 shots.  I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say you're rapid-firing them because you really want to with plasma.

20 shots hitting 0.6666% (2/3 because of BS4) of the time = 13.333 hits

13.333 hits wounding on 0.83333% (S7) of the time = 11.111 unsaved wounds

 

And it stops there because of AP2.  You're right that Plasma guns do cause more damage (slightly lower than BS5 Culverins, of course BS5 plasma will also be higher), but they're still very pricey (admittedly less than the Heavy Support Squad), and very short on range comparatively (nearly a quarter of the range to rapid-fire them), though given you're going with World Eaters that's actually a benefit rather than a concern, just make sure you get the charge.  

 

I do have to disagree about Heavy Weapons squads being a bad choice for increasing firepower, but maybe that's because I've had and seen a lot of unlucky tanks across many games get blown up Turn 1 (remember that Spartan I mentioned?), but as you say it's very dependant on who you play, if I used Volkite Culverins against the Ork/Tyranid player I know (and I don't use HH armies outside of HH games because I think it would be unfair) they'd destroy his infantry, they'd have no armour save and every time I got an unsaved wounds they would cause further wounds meaning he'd have to go to ground every time and I'd hardly have to worry about them doing anything if I didn't wipe out entire group of them.  With BS 4 I'd cause 26+ hits, 22+ wounds (with no armour save), that would then cause an additional 18+ wounds (again with no armour save), meaning on average one wound per shot fired (40 shots, a little over 40 wounds) which is something no other gun in the game that doesn't have the blast rule can claim to do.  I'm also not going to disagree that overall a Deredero is more versatile, but on average it'll cause far less wounds against regular marines than a 10 man squad of Culverins will (0.925 wounds from the autocannon battery and 2.083 from the Ailos Missile Launcher).

 

I'll finish up though by trying to get slightly back on topic with something regarding your current list, specifically which one is it?  Is it the one on the first page or the last one in a spoiler?  Because both seem to have a unique weakness, for the last one what happens if air units start to show up or are you going to ignore them?  Granted a lot of aerial units you can ignore, but some have really nasty weapons like a few AP3-AP2 weapons, though I suppose if worst comes to worst you can just duck inside the Spartans since they can't hurt them (even with Haywire it's very unlikely to kill the Spartans).  As for the one on the first page do you have any defence against a mechanized force?  I don't see any Melta Bombs so I'd think enemy Spartans would just ignore or block yours from going anywhere (though at least that could be funny, seeing them just ram into each other).

[Fangbanger]

Nice maths. I was getting confused though as I thought the culverins where heavy 2 but stand corrected.

 

As for plasma I was referring to cannons rather than guns (keeping it with heavy weapons) but yeah, I think guns are better for a forward advancing army generally.

 

As for lists, it's the latter and you are right, there is no anti air and that doesn't really phase me. The earliest air support is coming in is turn 2 and by then I would hope to be in combat. Obviously the glaring issue us the vulnerability of units after winning combat as I expect they will be out in the open. The lascanons I have will be the only anti-air and I'm ok with that I think. I was toying with a fire raptor or deredeo or similar but it takes points from threats elsewhere.

 

I want my army to push forward in heavy armour and make it difficult for an opposition to target prioritise. If I drop a spartan for something else, I feel that overwhelming threat is mitigated a little although I am open to ideas as I won't be purchasing the models until Sunday

[Fangbanger]

So, looks like you got me thinking again.....!

 

I'm thinking maybe dropping out the land raider and using the points for a little more shooting and have come up with the following:

 

Support squad

 

 

 

+++ Scorched bastards support squad (2250pts) +++

 

++ Legiones Astartes: Crusade Army List (Age of Darkness) ++

 

+ HQ +

 

Khârn the Bloody [Legacy of Blood]

 

+ Troops +

 

Legion Tactical Squad [Exchange their Bolters for a Chainsword or Combat Blade, 19x Legion Tactical Space Marines, Legion Vexilla]

Legion Tactical Sergeant [Artificer Armour, Power Fist]

 

Legion Tactical Squad [Legion Rhino Armoured Carrier, 9x Legion Tactical Space Marines, Legion Vexilla, Take an additional Chainsword or Combat Blade]

Legion Tactical Sergeant [Artificer Armour, Melta Bombs]

 

Legion Tactical Support Squad [Legion Rhino Armoured Carrier, 7x Legion Space Marines, Plasma Guns]

Legion Sergeant [Artificer Armour, Melta Bombs]

 

+ Elites +

 

Apothecarion Detachment

Legion Apothecary [Artificer Armour, Power Sword]

 

The Red Butchers [4x Butcher Terminator, 4x Second Power Axe]

Legion Spartan Assault Tank [Armoured Ceramite, Flare Shield]

The Devoured [2x Chainfist, Second Power Axe]

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Legion Spartan Assault Tank [Armoured Ceramite, Flare Shield]

 

Sicaran Venator Tank Destroyer

 

 

 

 

So with the above, I have a plasma squad to deliver some firepower in the mid to short range, clear off objectives or reinforce an area while the now reduced tactical squad can zip around in the rhino for objectives. I loose a bit of durability and CC, but feel I gain versatility and some shots.

 

Next, deredeo/fire raptor

 

 

 

+++ Scorched bastards deredeo (2155pts) +++

 

++ Legiones Astartes: Crusade Army List (Age of Darkness) ++

 

+ HQ +

 

Khârn the Bloody [Legacy of Blood]

 

+ Troops +

 

Legion Tactical Squad [Exchange their Bolters for a Chainsword or Combat Blade, 19x Legion Tactical Space Marines, Legion Vexilla]

Legion Tactical Sergeant [Artificer Armour, Power Fist]

 

Legion Tactical Squad [Legion Rhino Armoured Carrier, 9x Legion Tactical Space Marines, Legion Vexilla, Take an additional Chainsword or Combat Blade]

Legion Tactical Sergeant [Artificer Armour, Melta Bombs]

 

+ Elites +

 

Apothecarion Detachment

Legion Apothecary [Artificer Armour, Power Sword]

 

The Red Butchers [4x Butcher Terminator, 4x Second Power Axe]

Legion Spartan Assault Tank [Armoured Ceramite, Flare Shield]

The Devoured [2x Chainfist, Second Power Axe]

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Deredeo Pattern Dreadnought [Aiolos Missile Launcher]

 

Legion Spartan Assault Tank [Armoured Ceramite, Flare Shield]

 

Sicaran Venator Tank Destroyer

 

+ Legion +

 

 

 

 

So this puts a deredeo or fire raptor in for some anti air as well as extra fire power against infantry and lighter vehicles. The small tac squad in rhino could be bolstered in numbers and footslogg instead but I am unsure but have 90 points or so left over to play with.

 

Would love thoughts on this compared to my current idea which I have added in bellow for ease of reference and comparison

 

 

 

 

+++ Scorched bastards (2250pts) +++

 

++ Legiones Astartes: Crusade Army List (Age of Darkness) ++

 

+ HQ +

 

Khârn the Bloody [Legacy of Blood]

 

+ Troops +

 

Legion Tactical Squad [Exchange their Bolters for a Chainsword or Combat Blade, 14x Legion Tactical Space Marines, Legion Vexilla]

Legion Tactical Sergeant [Artificer Armour, Power Fist]

 

Legion Tactical Squad [Exchange their Bolters for a Chainsword or Combat Blade, 14x Legion Tactical Space Marines, Legion Vexilla]

Legion Tactical Sergeant [Artificer Armour, Heavy Chainsword, Melta Bombs]

 

+ Elites +

 

Apothecarion Detachment

Legion Apothecary [Artificer Armour, Power Sword]

Legion Apothecary [Artificer Armour, Power Sword]

 

The Red Butchers [4x Butcher Terminator, 4x Second Power Axe]

Land Raider Phobos [Armoured Ceramite, Auxiliary Drive]

The Devoured [2x Chainfist, Second Power Axe]

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Legion Spartan Assault Tank [Armoured Ceramite, Auxiliary Drive, Flare Shield]

 

Legion Spartan Assault Tank [Armoured Ceramite, Auxiliary Drive, Flare Shield]

 

Sicaran Venator Tank Destroyer

 

+ Legion +

 

 

 

 

Looking forward to the feedback and help!

[Flint13]

Triacom actually brings up a ton of good points there. Also, good job all on keeping the debates positive and constructive

So, one thing that I think bears the need for a little more discussion that Tri mentioned a little further up is the Stone Gauntlet rite of war from the Imperial Fists. While it is just a single rite of war from a single legion, its super popular right now. The bonus to toughness is nasty since its against both shooting and in close combat. It is particularly irritating to us XII legion players since any model with a boarding shield nullifies all of our charge bonuses since they count as defensive grenades. As well, the entire squad can take melta bombs. That's before we even get into phalanx wardens or HQ choices with shields.

So while breachers are indeed overpriced in a normal game, I think this rite of war brings them a crazy amount of viability.

[Slips]

@Triacom: Trust me, I was pretty bummed out when the Primus Medicae was also given the same Treatment in the FAQ along with Libbies and MoS' :(

 

For Malediction Libbies, since they're ML2, you get 2 Chances for the power and always get the Primaris anyways so, if you get lucky on Warp Charge and get Malediction, you could double dip the Unit. Also, Malediction can be Cast on Vehicles meaning you can hit a Spartan with 40 Rending Shots.

 

@Flint: Only Problem with Warders is that they have a weird Identity Crisis: they cant have a Bolter + Power Axe (only other weapon options are 1 in 5...) meaning if you give them CC punch, you dilute their Shooting. Then, you have their Rules which make you want them to get Charged for +1init but its kinda worthless since all their CC weapons are Unwieldy and would only benefit a non-Unwieldy character that was attached. + You dont want to charge with them since Void-Hardened reduces run & Charge by 1" I love them so but their iffy :(

 

@Fangbanger, I like List 2 the most, its the most rounded; but 3 has some value since you're presenting an Av15 (Flare Spartans) Wall with some Av14 so any lists armed with the bare minimum anti-tank will struggle; If you ever play against Tau with this list, they will cry. Only downside is that if they have any Outflankers or Deepstrikers, your backfield will be wide open with only a Venator to show for it.

[Fangbanger]

Argggghh I'm so spoilt for choice with options! It is a curse and a blessing 30k being so diverse!

 

I must of compiled about 20 lists by now and still not 100% settled :(

[Flint13]

No matter what list you go with, you will never be 100% settled. It's part of the awesome that is having a well balanced system where nothing wins out as an immediate "auto include" choice.

Enjoy it! Take pride in your twenty lists, all of which are sweet for different reasons. It could be some other rules sets we won't mention

[The Nookie]

@Triacom I have to say I never thought that a list like that could work out, but hey I am newer to 30k so I will concede that it could work, still having a bit of difficulty seeing it work out on a theoretical table top, but I could see it. Thanks for the good discussion, I am always looking for different list ideas too...I am trying more for a fluffy list towards their bezerk crazy style 

[Memento Of Prospero]

I never really know what I will field until about an hour before my games lately. I just pick units I feel like fielding fun is guaranteed, OR YOUR DAKKA BACK!

[The Nookie]

Ive been proxy testing as much as I can recently to try and figure out what works best with my list, i'm loving the deredeo and the fire raptor

[Fangbanger]

I don't have the luxury of play testing due to only owning about 2000 points of space wolves.

 

I'm going to drop a :cuss tone of cash on Sunday and just can't figure out my fave list! I guess it will just be what I feel like buying!

[infyrana]

For buying, the thing you need to think of is - what will your core list be regardless of changing specific heavy supports around or what have you.  Grab the core, grab the bits that you need (chain axes, shoulder pads etc), and if you are unsure, leave enough to make a future order with later.  I'd probably go for the one spartan and deredeo with venator, save the fire raptor and second spartan for another order to help get you over that free postage barrier.

 

Also, if you buy the Rhino from FW, and you plan to up your tacticals to 2x 20-man, I wonder if the Scorpius model (magnetise it) would give you a nice best-of-two-worlds option.  I kinda like list 3 with two spartans, but I think the second list with deredeo would give you that anti-air you need, and switch between rhino tacts or 15+apoth footsloggers for testing.

 

Good luck with your order!

[Fangbanger]

Cheers dude some great points! A big help!

[ThatOneMarshal]

I would reccomend that you start slowly and not by an entire army. Also if you can try to playtest using your space wolves.Just ask the guys at your club if their ok with you trying out some units because you are buying from forgeworld and you want to make sure that you are getting what you want.I'm doing soemthing simialr with my blood angels and black templars to see what I want for my 30k army. Also I like the final list. One that I would reccomend you do if you want to see the army played is watch traitors hand on youtbe by warhammer40kaustrailia. Great people and the main guy runs a list simalier to yours. Heres a link: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLGYpaXkwKtql1P8H02UbKSHZIVKZnxSxk 

 

Hope this helps!

[Fangbanger]

Yeah I regularly watch those guys. It's a great channel with a nice laid back vibe too it and I confess it is where I have borrowed some ideas...!

 

The reason I was going to get the bulk of it this weekend is I am at the open day tomorrow and prefer to buy it thee than order it, plus I need it all ready and painted by the first weekend in August for a tourney so kinda need to get a move on! (I find having a deadline like that a great motivator to get stuff done!)

 

You are right however and think I will stick to some key purchases this weekend (tacos, a spartan, Khan, venator) and then use some other models to feel out what I want to add to it....

 

Void claw termites in a land raider - red butchers

Storm wolf - fire raptor

Dreadnought - deredeo

 

And I also have a normal sicaran too which I can try out

 

Once again, thanks for the tips. It's always great to get people's opinions and advice as it makes the whole process a little easier and the hobby much more enjoyable!

[Triacom]

Triacom actually brings up a ton of good points there. Also, good job all on keeping the debates positive and constructive

So, one thing that I think bears the need for a little more discussion that Tri mentioned a little further up is the Stone Gauntlet rite of war from the Imperial Fists. While it is just a single rite of war from a single legion, its super popular right now. The bonus to toughness is nasty since its against both shooting and in close combat. It is particularly irritating to us XII legion players since any model with a boarding shield nullifies all of our charge bonuses since they count as defensive grenades. As well, the entire squad can take melta bombs. That's before we even get into phalanx wardens or HQ choices with shields.

So while breachers are indeed overpriced in a normal game, I think this rite of war brings them a crazy amount of viability.

Thanks for the compliment, here's an idea, how about bringing in some Medusa's? I know that combat armies love their AV14 armour but at the same time I don't think it's necessary to have more than 2 at a 2250 point game (even the Venator I've mentioned before was a lucky shot and Medusa's can kill Venator's). Medusa's can bring some desperately needed Anti-troop, anti-armour firepower and you could get two of them for the price of a Spartan with a Flare Shield. Better yet since they're S10 they ID Imperial Fists and Iron Hands, and since they're AP2 the Imperial Fists cannot re-roll their armour saves against these large blast weapons.

@Triacom: Trust me, I was pretty bummed out when the Primus Medicae was also given the same Treatment in the FAQ along with Libbies and MoS'

For Malediction Libbies, since they're ML2, you get 2 Chances for the power and always get the Primaris anyways so, if you get lucky on Warp Charge and get Malediction, you could double dip the Unit. Also, Malediction can be Cast on Vehicles meaning you can hit a Spartan with 40 Rending Shots.

@Flint: Only Problem with Warders is that they have a weird Identity Crisis: they cant have a Bolter + Power Axe (only other weapon options are 1 in 5...) meaning if you give them CC punch, you dilute their Shooting. Then, you have their Rules which make you want them to get Charged for +1init but its kinda worthless since all their CC weapons are Unwieldy and would only benefit a non-Unwieldy character that was attached. + You dont want to charge with them since Void-Hardened reduces run & Charge by 1" I love them so but their iffy

@Fangbanger, I like List 2 the most, its the most rounded; but 3 has some value since you're presenting an Av15 (Flare Spartans) Wall with some Av14 so any lists armed with the bare minimum anti-tank will struggle; If you ever play against Tau with this list, they will cry. Only downside is that if they have any Outflankers or Deepstrikers, your backfield will be wide open with only a Venator to show for it.

Looking at it again almost all of the powers in Divination are really good, overwatching at full BS, gaining Ignores Cover Krak Missiles (be the envy of the Iron Warriors), Rending Volkites, re-rolling to hit with all Heavy Weapons, I'll just need to find a way to work this into a list to make the most of it.

That's one of the reasons I never took Imperial Fists too seriously, their rules conflict with good equipment (for example I still don't think Heavy Bolters are a good idea unless you're Iron Warriors and some people have suggested Bolt Pistol Moritats, which I thought would be a bit useless), efficient points costs (plasma for example will still eat Breacher Squads, even with the increased toughness), and like most other Legions (barring Iron Warriors) once their Transport's gone (I will not claim it's easy to get rid of) their terminators need to footslog it. If they're using the popular SS+TH combo then that means they're not going to hurt you unless you let them get that close and it's possible to ignore them because by the time they reach combat they're not going to be making their points back (especially if you have stuff like Graviton Guns/Cannons slowing them down).

To be fair to Fangbanger, when Outflankers or Deepstrikers reach the backfield their troops will be well out of it. They'll probably have to give up Linebreaker, but Berserker Assault (the Rite they can easily include) isn't made to let you stop your opponent from getting Linebreaker anyway.

Argggghh I'm so spoilt for choice with options! It is a curse and a blessing 30k being so diverse!

I must of compiled about 20 lists by now and still not 100% settled

That's one of the things I love about 30K, if it's any easier there's usually people on Ebay selling 30K sets, as in a few squads with some Contemptor's or Rhino's that are quite a bit cheaper than buying from Forgeworld. A little while ago I even saw one person that had painted World Eaters (sadly no conversion set) being sold for $130 CAD (20 Marines, 2 Contemptors with Close Combat Weapons, though I didn't buy it). Those deals are pretty great if it's something you're looking for.

@Triacom I have to say I never thought that a list like that could work out, but hey I am newer to 30k so I will concede that it could work, still having a bit of difficulty seeing it work out on a theoretical table top, but I could see it. Thanks for the good discussion, I am always looking for different list ideas too...I am trying more for a fluffy list towards their bezerk crazy style

No problem, as I said play how you like, and that list still needs quite a bit of tweaking, I was just trying to provide some examples, when I get something concrete I'll make my own thread for it.

[Fangbanger]

Yeah I did look to medusas it I really don't like the model.... But good thinking.

 

2 Spartans and a land raider is a lot If av14 for sure, howevere if I take a smaller squad with rhino I feel it would be too squishy. Also if I took a footslogger squad I would feel the same.

 

Damn it though I want all the toys! I can imagine though how 2 Spartans rolling up with a squad of 15 charging on foot, a fire raptor flying overhead and a venator fireing from the back lines would look on the tabletop and that is pretty awesome!