Extra CCW on tacticals

[v6v77]

Looking to run 3 10 man tac squads in my Alpha legion list, all with attached apothecary.

 

Their is some debate at my local gaming group as to whether its worth adding extra CCW to them to give them more of a chance against melee swarms (looking at you nids)

 

Thoughts?

[Theredknight]

I always do..it's like insurance :-)

[Hesh Kadesh]

Not in small squads. In big squads, maybe due to the weight of attacks (40pts for 1.666 additional unsaved wounds vs MEQ's means you need to be in an assault for 3 turns without losing a model to make up for it, more likely 4 turns. So no, not really). And that isn't factoring in FNP either.

 

Sons of Horus, Night Lords and World Eaters get the most benefit from it. Alpha Legion less so.

 

If you are going to be assaulting, you'll get more benefit from 6 Power Weapon equipped Veterans.

[hivey]

I play AL too. OnE of my favorite stratrgies is to infiltrate a large tac squad close, fury if the legion first turn, then assault next turn. Extra CCW makes that better. Even more so if you can scout them even closer after infiltrate.

[defl0]

Think in terms of efficiency. Tacs are the cheapest space marine. The second 10 tacs are even cheaper. 2 points to double the hth value of the cheapest marine. A chaplain makes them fearless and gives them re rolls in first round of combat. So now you have a re roll on the cheapest attacks available. And you get a re roll on your crack grenades. 

 

As for apothecaries, they cost 5 marines. 1 in 3 deaths get saves so in a 15 man unit you have have potential to save the points that you spent (compared to an identically armed squad of 20 without an apothecary). Obviously you are beating the price of the apothecary as you go up to 20 marines. But at the cost of all those cheap attacks from all those marines that you sunk their points into an apothecay. Plus there is also the opportunity cost of an elite slot... At least in Raven Guard that's too much to give up, so i don't run apothecaries. Just 20 guys with extra ccw and a chaplain. 

 

So it comes down to battle field role. If you plan on being aggresive with them equip them to succeed. If they are going to keep them as objective campers keep them cheap and naked. If you are playing 7th ed eveything scores, take a rhino. 

 

At least that's how i approach it

[Hesh Kadesh]

20 Tactical Marines, Extra CCW's, Power Weapon on Sergeant (because you will, it's a CC unit), Chaplain, Apothecary = 435pts

 

Take away 150pts.

 

Leaves you with 285pts. For 285pts, I'm pretty confident you can come up with something better, and just leave 10 Tactical Marines sat on a home objective.

[Noserenda]

A 20man Tactical squad with extra CC weapons is a fixture in my Alpha legion lists as my army's hinge :) I wouldnt bother with Apothecaries in smaller than 20 though

[Flint13]

If the choice is strictly between "should I take the extra CCW or not" pretty much every time the answer will be yes unless you need to shave a good deal of points from a list. That is a solid 40pts for a full tactical squad, which is not an investment made lightly. If you're sticking an apothecary in there, you're already making an investment in that squad surviving, so its just as good an idea to make sure they are well equipped and can hold their own, doubly so if you're using one of the combat legions like the XII or VIII.

Now, if it were a choice between "should I take the extra CCW or switch for BP/CCW," that is much more involved debate.

A 20man Tactical squad with extra CC weapons is a fixture in my Alpha legion lists as my army's hinge I wouldnt bother with Apothecaries in smaller than 20 though

I think the same way. A squad of 20 makes that apothecary a good investment and since the minimum squad size is 10, there typically isn't room for an apothecary in the squad's transport vehicle anyway, since minimal size tactical squads are most likely in Rhinos or Drop pods.

The only time I'd say other wise is if you have an independent character in there. I use a 15-man tactical squad and an apothecary as a bodyguard/mob with my World Eaters' Praetor, for example.

[LongGone]

20 Tactical Marines, Extra CCW's, Power Weapon on Sergeant (because you will, it's a CC unit), Chaplain, Apothecary = 435pts

 

Take away 150pts.

 

Leaves you with 285pts. For 285pts, I'm pretty confident you can come up with something better, and just leave 10 Tactical Marines sat on a home objective.

Not 100% certain I understand your math/reasoning here...

[1ncarnadine]

 

20 Tactical Marines, Extra CCW's, Power Weapon on Sergeant (because you will, it's a CC unit), Chaplain, Apothecary = 435pts

 

Take away 150pts.

 

Leaves you with 285pts. For 285pts, I'm pretty confident you can come up with something better, and just leave 10 Tactical Marines sat on a home objective.

Not 100% certain I understand your math/reasoning here...

 

 

The 285 points is how much you spent on the tactical squad past the initial purchase price of 150 for 10 marines with no extra fixin's. 

[LongGone]

I kinda figured that's what he meant, it just read weird to me for some reason...

 

My big contention with that though is the idea that you're better off bringing a bunch of bare bones, 10-man squads and leaving them in the backfield (home). That seems...less than effective.

[1ncarnadine]

It feels like it a little bit sometimes, but it's also the easiest way to fulfill your troops req when your other two regular options are clearly overpriced anyway. The more points you dump into your tactical units to "make them worth it" the more you can fall into a sort of sunk cost fallacy. 

[defl0]

It's not really a fallacy though. It is sunk cost. It's not useless, but vs other squads it tends not to come out on top. IMO, i do think naked tacs are expensive objective campers (7th ed rules wise)..

 

You have to buy an HQ and 2 tacs. So the question becomes if you already bought the bought a chaplain as your HQ + the 10 man tac (250+ pts)  is it worth spending the extra 140+ points to make those points really useful? 

 

It's a good question. I mean it's a sicarian worth of points. 

 

If you add apothecaries it's even a bigger expenditure and if it's a second HQ choice, now you have gone really deep, like spartan deep. 

 

That said, I can say with Raven Guard it's definitely worth the points and my chaplain is in addition to of maun. I feel like it would translate similarly to alpha legion, but it is missing some of the nifty tricks like cameleoline and blind shenanigans which makes a big difference. 

[Hesh Kadesh]

285pts picks you up 8 Terminators as basic, or 7 Terminators with a load of upgrades.

 

Or a little under 3 Plasma Preds.

 

Or a Fire Raptor.

 

Or a Plasma Deredeo with Aiolos.

 

Or nearly 3 Vindicators.

 

Or a Veteran Squad with Power Swords

 

Those 285pts will always be better spent that upgunning a comparatively poor unit into a comparatively just substandard unit.

 

for 285pts, you are adding 20ish S4 AP- attacks, with a few S4 AP3 attacks, and rerolls to hit. If that was for 150pts, it would be good. But it's not, it is for near double that.

 

I would much rather eat 300pts of disappointment than turn it into nearly 900pts of substandard assault potential.

 

That same 600pts goes towards Palatines, Templars, Veterans, Terminators, Medusa, Vindicators, Typhon, or even a Fellblade.

 

All of which outclass the Tacs at their ability to wipe out squads.

 

The only thing they can't match up is their ability to score, tie down, or provide cover. But if you want that, you either step up 150pts for a second 10man squad, offering maneuverability and flexibility or 100(145pts) for 20man squad (with an Apothecary for resilience bearing in mind 45pts of that might be wasted by your opponent pouring his S8+ AP3 blasts into the squad/barrage sniping the apoth out).

 

Either way, spending another 135ish pts on a squad whose role isn't really to deal damage is a bit poitlntless.

 

View them as Eldar Guardians (as if the jetbikes weren't an option), or Nurglings. The cheapest option available that wastes the least amount of points for an army, leavimg points for Aspect Warriors or Monstrous creatures. Sure you can optimise; go as far as throwing a Librarian in their hoping for misfortune.

 

Think of it like a buy one get one half price offer in a supermarket. If it's for something you're going to be using in those numbers anyway, it is a decent offer. But if you weren't going to get that many, then it is a false economy and a discount that embodies (any sale is better than no sale).

 

TL;DR - tacticals so set up wouldn't be expressly bad, but don't provide bang for buck that would be netter spent elsewhere.

[Sanct]

Have you played against any legion horde lists hesh?  Horde lists that are in the 2.5k+ point range?

[norngahl]

I guess 20 points for a basic 10 men squad isnt too expensive for doubeling the combat effectiveness of the unit. Remember, 20 points mean roughly 1,25 dead marines to make up the points and this is easily done in a round of combat. And when you are not up against marines, the extra attacks will be much better as well. AND close combat is more lethal as marines don't have ATSKNF, so having 1-2 more wounds can be all they need to wipe an entire unit off the board.

 

Just dont pump too much points into them to make them the combat unit they arent.

 

Beside this, any marine just should have CCW for fluff reasons.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Have you played against any legion horde lists hesh?  Horde lists that are in the 2.5k+ point range?

You mean the pretty much standard recommended range for Age of Darkness games? Yes. (Mid point is 2625, usually shortened to 2600 or 2500). 

 

They tend to get obliterated because I don't waste points on unnecessary things like Extra CC weapons and buffing Tac Squads, instead putting points into things like Medusa, Typhon, Praevians, etc on the table.

 

If you want to have a unit in CC, then just take it as standard with BP+CCW's; save 40pts right thur. If you want it to shoot, then have it with Bolters and BP, and sit at 20" and FotL to put out a 20-40 shot fusillade before move/running into and out of cover. 

 

Against things like 40K armies. Not much. I don't tend to play much of that; mainly because most of my gaming group sold their 40K armies to make space for their Legiones.

[Sanct]

><

[defl0]

285pts picks you up 8 Terminators as basic, or 7 Terminators with a load of upgrades.

 

Or a little under 3 Plasma Preds.

 

Or a Fire Raptor.

 

Or a Plasma Deredeo with Aiolos.

 

Or nearly 3 Vindicators.

 

Or a Veteran Squad with Power Swords

 

Those 285pts will always be better spent that upgunning a comparatively poor unit into a comparatively just substandard unit.

 

Not sure i get your point. 20 tacs with a chaplain easily takes out all these units with re roll crack grenades. (Sans fire raptor). It even beats the vets with all power weapons. 

 

Yes. It's not a point to point comparison, but that's kinda my point. If you believe it to be sunk cost it's an apt comparison. 

 

Granted the alpha legion don't get the 3+ cover so they don't bounce the shooty wounds, but I still think it's a sounds concept, that works well for me on the table. 

 

 

 

Hesh Kadesh, on 03 May 2015 - 4:50 PM, said:

They tend to get obliterated because I don't waste points on unnecessary things like Extra CC weapons and buffing Tac Squads, instead putting points into things like Medusa, Typhon, Praevians, etc on the table.

If you want to have a unit in CC, then just take it as standard with BP+CCW's; save 40pts right thur. If you want it to shoot, then have it with Bolters and BP, and sit at 20" and FotL to put out a 20-40 shot fusillade before move/running into and out of cover.

 

Against things like 40K armies. Not much. I don't tend to play much of that; mainly because most of my gaming group sold their 40K armies to make space for their Legiones.

 

It's an interesting question around the value of a bolter on infiltrating squads though.

As they are infiltrating (and often go first), I do often fury of the legion them first turn (ie 4 dead MEQ, 2 dead TEQ). And interestingly, I do often end up getting charged, which is why I've started giving the chaplain the boarding shield. So from a pure poits perspective, yeah it's worth it. But from a opportunity cost perspective? Sure there might be a better place to spend 40 points.

Kinda depends on your list though

[defl0]

They tend to get obliterated because I don't waste points on unnecessary things like Extra CC weapons and buffing Tac Squads, instead putting points into things like Medusa, Typhon, Praevians, etc on the table.

 

If you want to have a unit in CC, then just take it as standard with BP+CCW's; save 40pts right thur. If you want it to shoot, then have it with Bolters and BP, and sit at 20" and FotL to put out a 20-40 shot fusillade before move/running into and out of cover. 

 

Against things like 40K armies. Not much. I don't tend to play much of that; mainly because most of my gaming group sold their 40K armies to make space for their Legiones.

 

 

It's an interesting question around the value of a bolter on infiltrating squads though. 

 

As they are infiltrating (and often go first), I do often fury of the legion them first turn (ie 4 dead MEQ, 2 dead TEQ). And interestingly, I do often end up getting charged, which is why I've started giving the chaplain the boarding shield. So from a pure poits perspective, yeah it's worth it. But from a opportunity cost perspective? Sure there might be a better place to spend 40 points.

 

Kinda depends on your list though

[v6v77]

Sorry ive been absent. Its great to see such a response and is always nice to have debates (nicely). Helps iron out the better stratergy.

 

Here is my list at 1850.

 

+++ AL 1850 (1850pts) +++

 

++ Legiones Astartes: Crusade Army List (Age of Darkness) (1850pts) ++

 

+ HQ (75pts) +

 

Legion Centurion (75pts) [Power Armour]

····Consul

········Delegatus

············Master of the Legion [The Coils of the Hydra]

 

+ Troops (750pts) +

 

Legion Tactical Squad (175pts) [9x Legion Tactical Space Marines, Legion Vexilla, Nuncio-Vox]

····Legion Tactical Sergeant [Melta Bombs]

 

Legion Tactical Squad (175pts) [9x Legion Tactical Space Marines, Legion Vexilla, Nuncio-Vox]

····Legion Tactical Sergeant [Melta Bombs]

 

Legion Tactical Squad (175pts) [9x Legion Tactical Space Marines, Legion Vexilla, Nuncio-Vox]

····Legion Tactical Sergeant [Melta Bombs]

 

Legion Tactical Support Squad (225pts) [9x Legion Space Marines, Volkite Calivers]

 

+ Elites (545pts) +

 

Apothecarion Detachment (150pts)

····Legion Apothecary [Augury Scanner]

····Legion Apothecary [Augury Scanner]

····Legion Apothecary [Augury Scanner]

 

Legion Rapier Weapons Battery (180pts)

····Legion Rapier Weapons Battery [Quad Mortar ('Thud Gun')]

····Legion Rapier Weapons Battery [Quad Mortar ('Thud Gun')]

····Legion Rapier Weapons Battery [Quad Mortar ('Thud Gun')]

 

The Rewards of Treason (215pts)

····Iron Havoc Support Squad [4x Iron Havoc, 4x Missile Launcher (with Frag, Krak, & Flakk missiles)]

········Iron Havoc Sergeant [Augury Scanner, Missile Launcher (with Frag, Krak, & Flakk missiles)]

 

+ Heavy Support (480pts) +

 

Legion Fire Raptor Gunship (210pts) [Reaper Autocannon battery]

 

Legion Sicaran Battle Tank (155pts) [Armoured Ceramite]

 

Legion Whirlwind Scorpius (115pts)

 

+ Legion +

 

Legion Astartes [XX: Alpha Legion]

 

Created with BattleScribe (http://www.battlescribe.net)

 

If anyone can tell me how this will fare with and without ccw (assuming i find the points).

 

Cheers

[Hesh Kadesh]

Bear in mind that in the example units, these cost around the same price as the additional points spent on the tactical squad, not including the baseline. I've still got those 10 Tacs who can shoot at you (1.089 unsaved wounds/turn on single shot, 2.178 unsaved vs Rapid Fire/FotL, 4.356 with both Rapid Fire AND FotL). Admittedly, I've not included for Apothecary, so multiply the damage by 0.66. 

 

1. Explain how this is the case. You've got to footslog, unless you're changing the goalposts once further and taking a Spartan (at which point I bring back my 6 Graviton Rapiers which for 335 less than the combined cost of Spartan and Tactical Squad with attached characters is sitting at 785pts, is still in the same place it would be turn 1 normally, with the exception it's now possibly down a few members thanks to disembarking in dangerous terrain, and is now spending it's next turn in difficult and dangerous terrain); which means that over 2 turns, you've got to be capable of rolling above average on BOTH run AND assault to make it into an assault Turn 2 against a Vindicator that's too stupid to reverse. Average results on both run and assault leaves you at 10.5", leaving you facing another shooting phase.

 

Against the listed units, that's between 2 and 3 phases depending on going first or second; and results in between 18 and 27 S7 AP2 Blasts, 6 to 9 S10 AP2 Pie Plates, 8-12 S7 Ap2 shots, or 2-3 Plasma Large S7 AP2 Blasts and 6-9 S6 AP3 Missiles. Throw in the 10 Man Tactical Squad (5.445 unsaved wounds), that's the squad beginning to waver a bit. When the Tacticals get into range (again, reiterating that it's stupid that the vehicles don't reverse/step back in this example), they get to assault - either turn 2 or 3, and have less than the 22 models, because that's what shooting does in this game; assuming you're in range to get the squad in CC, (again, rolling above average), to destroy the Predators, you'd need to cause 18 hits. Doable with 21 or more models in the squad based on percentage chance, but with even 15 models in the squad, you'll still leave one predator remaining. Against the Vindicator, they're not squadrons, so unless you can multcharge them, they're still free. A Deredeo has AV13, and is hence immune to Krak Grenades. Sure, it can't deal that much damage, but the limitation of 1 or 2 melta bombs in the squad means that not only do they have to hit it, but glance or more, and then beat it's Invulnerable Save - 6+ or not, it's still there.

 

Against the Veterans, they'll have an easier job, because the Veterans are going to want to be getting in close too. However; you're running a Chaplain with a free power weapon. He is usually going to be running an axe in case he gets caught up in a challenge against anything 2+ like a Praetor or Terminator, or any old standard sergeant looking to make your AP3 beatstick characters useless. While you do have a Sergeant for that, it's rarely worth JUST risking a 485pt squads only (unwieldy, may I add) AP2 on a single model with a single wound without an Invulnerable Save. A Maul is often near on useless in Legion heavy metas, but as it's including 40K (30K on 40K isn't something I have as much experience with), it may be viable; but failing that, it's 5 S4 AP3 attacks (unless World Eaters or possibly Black Reaving Sons of Horus) at I5 with rerolls to hit; 2.2 wounds giving 2-3 dead Veterans IF the sword is chosen. If the Veterans player is canny, he can force you to waste 2 of your wounds against the Veterans without Power Weapons (285pts gives me 8 Power Weapons); so that's only maybe 1 dead Power Weapon.

 

The Veterans Strike simultaneously with the Tacticals; even without Furious Charge, that's 21-24 WS4 S4 AP3 Attacks; that's 5.25-6 wounds; or 3.465-4 after FNP kicks in. Assuming no dead Tacticals; that's 60 Attacks rerolling to hit; that's 7.425 dead Veterans. Dead Veteran Squad in exchange for 3-4 dead tacticals, right? I'll cede you that. But that's a; assuming you roll well enough on run, and assault, and through any possible difficult terrain (battlefield condition induced or through actual terrain) to get there (as in, above average), and the Veteran Squad don't wait to get the charge on you, when they get Furious Charge and an additional attack, and they can foist the 2 doomed to die against the Chaplain in base contact with him without having to play around with pile in. Should the Veteran Squad charge, they have (not including the 2-3 dead from the chaplain) 28-32 WS4 S5 AP3 attacks; that's 9.24 dead marines, in exchange for 40 attacks; it will still kill the Tactical Squad, admittedly, again, proviso that all the Tactical Squads are able to be within pile in range to be engaged in combat and hence strike blows.

 

But then; what happened to the Bolters? In both cases, I forgot to account for Overwatch, which would obviously go in the favour of the Tacticals if they have Bolters, but for the most part, but even with 40 Overwatching Bolter Shots, it's only 1.09ish dead Veterans. However - the Veterans can also add their firepower to that of the tactical squad they were bought in addition to; which as I've shown earlier is 1 dead marine per 10 Bolter shots in normal stance.

 

Bear in mind as well, that Krak Grenades aren't useable versus Infantry; or rather anything that's not a Monstrous Creature, Vehicle or Building, in fact. However, remember all of the above happens irregardless of having extra bolters. Why would you not rather save those 40pts and just take additional CCW's? If you're running forwards, you're running, so no shooting. If you're shooting, you're shooting, and not trying to be in combat; and 40pts is another 4 Bolters putting out 4-8 shots a turn, which is 1 dead marine every other turn when doing something you're already doing.

 

If Emperor's Children gain something more Eldar-like (i.e Battle Focus) where they can run and shoot in the same phase (but not FotL for "balance" purposes), then it might be worthwhile. But it's not.

 

@v6v77; I don't really play 1850, I feel it's too low with the stupid false points tax written in to the game. If you're infiltrating close, you're not attacking until turn 2, but you're in shooting range of the enemies rapid fire, especially if you move to within Rapid Fire range of the enemy turn 1. I wouldn't really bother, in my mind, especially in such low points. At higher points, you can maybe consider it (although conversely, you could also say that the at that level, you should be trying to squeeze what you can out of higher points levels.

[Sanct]

Bear in mind that in the example units, these cost around the same price as the additional points spent on the tactical squad, not including the baseline.

 

 

-The total cost of 20 tacticals, power weapon on the sarge and a chappy is 430 points not 435.

-Excluding the cost of an hq in the points is significant (min of 50pts since the tactical squad option has an hq chappy) so the difference would be 230 points at most

-The vindi/plasma preds options are significantly more points than the wrongly listed 285 point difference.  3 vindis is 360pts while the preds are 330pts at least (none of which equates to 'almost' to me)

-Every option depends on there being no cover and several cannot put enough dice on the unit unless the tacticals are bunched up. (which is why i asked if you had any horde games)

-Depending on how you play and size of the game you don't always have the space to fit an extra elite of heavy support in the FoC

 

Either way you're using a singular vacuum example of a decent rock unit to say that you shouldn't take extra ccw on tactical squads and also that people shouldn't take extra tacticals.  It sounds like a straw man argument to me.

 

 

To the OP's question on taking extra ccw on the 3x 10 man tacticals I would say no because the 10 mans have significant trouble with assaults as you generally want them to get of the way so you can shoot the assaulters and adding more points to them is bad. I would also suggest against the apoths from a gamey perpective

 

To the extended chat about extra ccw and large tacticals units my SoH like their 17 marine tactical unit with extra ccw (usually 4-5 of them) but if you bling a unit out to 400+ point levels you better have a plan for them in the army other than spamming them.

 

TL;DR here's a topical funny pic 

[v6v77]

@sanct

 

May i ask what you mean when you say you wouldnt take apothecaries?

 

Have decided to drop ccw on the ten mans and fot in some more bodies. Looking at another list where ive got 3 20man tacs with ccw and apoths.

 

Riding the AL rite of war wave to bring some nasties to make up some strength in the army.

[infyrana]

Have you thought about running just one squad with all the upgrades and leaving the others bare?