Need a clarification on AM organisation chart

[unitron]

Hey,

 

I consider starting a new army - an Astra Militarum one.

 

I am able to buy a previous ed. (not sold anymore) Catachan Battleforce which consists of:

 

2x 10 men Jungle Fighters

1x 5 men Company/Platoon Command Squad

1x Sentinel

1x 6 men Heavy Weapons Squad (3 weapon teams)

 

It`s tempting because it costs only 75$ in my local store, and I started to wonder if I actually could field all the models as depicted on the box. Namely the Heavy Weapons Squad - can they be fielded as an independent troops choice (outside of platoon)?

 

This way I could field 2 veteran squads, CCS, a sentinel and a HWS without sacrificing 2 men per squad just to field heavy weapons if I wanted em badly for a battle.

It is not explicitly specified anywhere in the newest codex that they can`t, but then again... let`s just say saying those codicies are not crystal clear would be an understatement.

[SW1]

To take the HWS you need to take the other parts of the platoon. So minimum is a 5 man command and 2x 10 man infantry squads. You can then tag on HWS, SWS, extra troop squads and conscripts.

 

You can't take HWS, SWS or conscript units without the 25 man tax.

[unitron]

You made me sad...

I hoped I could assemble something fieldable cheap with new factory perfumed parts, you sure bout what you`re saying? No offence bro, your reference is daily practice or actual 'something' from the books? Forgive my disbelief, but all i could find was '(...)platoon may include up to(...)heavy weapons' which doesn`t bluntly forbid its use outside of platoon; yet, again, not batantly, indicates, like if HWSs were exlusive to them, and all this confuses me terribly.

[Emicus]

The rules set we have is permissive, that means that it doesn't have to forbid anything. Unless it is written, you can't do it. NOWHERE in the book does it say you can't take Hexatron the Blenderlord, your homemade allstats 10 godmode character proxied by a toaster, so why don't you?
​The heavy weapon teams are an upgrade/addin/expansion to the platoon, without the platoon, no dice.

​Best solution to field everything you have I think is what you mentioned.
2x10 veterans, 2 guys sit out, heavy weapon team comes in.

1x5 Company Command squad, 2 guys sit out, heavy weapon comes in.

 

6 guys spare. Model another Company Command Squad and... An astropath? Master of ordinance? Psyker? Commisar? Priest? Then everything is fielded.

​Or heck, Unbound! Easy fix.
OR grab another box of jungle fighters and a HQ. 1 HQ, 1 Platoon, 1 veteran squad, 1 sentinel. Done.
​OR two Catachan battleforces! The sky is the limit :O

[SW1]

You made me sad...

I hoped I could assemble something fieldable cheap with new factory perfumed parts, you sure bout what you`re saying? No offence bro, your reference is daily practice or actual 'something' from the books? Forgive my disbelief, but all i could find was '(...)platoon may include up to(...)heavy weapons' which doesn`t bluntly forbid its use outside of platoon; yet, again, not batantly, indicates, like if HWSs were exlusive to them, and all this confuses me terribly.

Check the unit description in the fluff bit. All units that you can take have their own entry. However the HWS is only found as part of a platoon. We had this discussions previously about conscripts. Rather than waist my time going over the same arguments again just use the search function and read up. You'll find I'm not just spouting rubbish.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Emicus is right about the rules being permissive. The HWT's can be a good thing to sub into your CCS ans vet squads, just for versatility. You can't field everything as it stands now, but another CS box and 2 more squad boxes will get you the requisite models to field a weapons platoon. 

 

The way I spec out a weapons platoon varies but it usually is something like this:

PCS with 4 special weapons

2x Infantry squads with special weapon and a HWT (usually something direct fire to cover the Heavy weapons squads, like heavy bolters)

2x HW squads with mortars

1x HW squad with autocannons (you  can drop this squad from the platoon without damaging the concept, just take the autocannons in the infantry squads instead of HB)

ADL with quad gun (take a commissar to fire it so the PCS can pull security for the rest of the platoon)

 

Granted it is expensive, but since it's intended as a supportive base of fire unit, it's ok. Since I only field regular AM as an ally (to my Stormtroopers) it's fine, and isn't an auto include. (At this point for me, it's theory as I don't have the models to do it, but  it's something I'm planning on working up to).

[march10k]

Yah...IG makes a great ally...one troops choice?  No problem!  Here're my 105 models for that one troops choice...no, it's actually a blob of 50, 5 squads of 10, and a squad of 5...no, really, one FOC slot, and it's not even maxed out...

[Bryan Blaire]

The 40K Rules set is both permissive and restrictive, that really has no bearing on the argument one way or the other. The rules tell you both things that you can (permissive, "you can move any of your units - all of them if you wish") and things that you can't (restrictive, "models in [a unit] must form an imaginary chain", "once you move a unit, you cannot go back and change it") do.

 

The fact is, the composition of the platoon doesn't allow for things to be taken outside the bounds of the platoon. Even Unbound requires you to take full units (which would mean as they are written), not subsections of units (for instance, you can't simply take three Guardsmen if it doesn't make up a unit from the Codex, nor can you take a Thunderfire Cannon without its attendant Techmarine or a squad of two Space Marines).

[Emicus]

Would a unit of three heavy weapons (heavy weapon squad) not be fieldable as a "stand alone" unit when running unbound then? Since it is a whole unit and not say three lonely and confused conscripts. I've never played unbound before, if a platoon is still required that feels surprisingly restrictive for a format I believed to be "tally the points, do what ever you want".

[SW1]

The unit is the platoon which gives you several options including HWS's. Would best thinking about the platoon as a vehicle which can have upgrades. It can have additional sponsons but you can't take those sponsons in an army without having the body first.

 

If you really want to do stand alone heavy weapon squads you could take the Apoc formation which is a CCS with a certain number of HWS's. That's the only time sticking to the rules you can have HWS's without the rest of the platoon.

[SW1]

Looking at the Apoc books you could also have Catachan vet squads and SWS's as an Apoc choice. Like the look of that for my Catachan base army. Have all vet squads with SWS's and then include HWS's by including the other formation. Means you won't be blob squading or giving many orders out or including conscripts in the army.

[unitron]

Thank you all for your input. Ultimately, I purchased a Catachan Battleforce and one additional CCS and Infantry Squad. This will fulfill all the obligatory requirements without any tinkering like crazy any more.

So, I finally have what I wanted, a small, yet fieldable Catachan army. I consider adding some Heavy Weapons - the mortars look very tempting. I want to keep my army fluffy and the Heavy Weapons seem very Catachan and hard-hitting at the same time. Do you think I could build a formidable army arround Heavy Weapons?

[WarriorFish]

Looking forward to seeing you paint them up unitron :tu: Unfortunately HWS aren't fantastic, as they're susceptible to S6 shooting but that just means that it's hard to build a list with lots of them and not that they're useless. Don't forget you can embed them in infantry squads for securing ground as well as blobbing them :)

[march10k]

To be perfectly frank, with two T3 wounds per model, no ablative meat armor protection, and only three models per unit, they're susceptible to ALL shooting.  Even the random occasional rhino-mounted stormbolter is a huge threat!

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

What's the name of that HWS formation, it might be worth adding to my inventory.