Help me help a friend

[Black Templar 307th Comp.]

So I have a friend who's got a GK army, and he's had it for a while, it's one of his four armies. Since the new dex came out, he's been playing it more...but he's never quite caught up to the post-5th meta. Back in 5th, he could take that army and run it down you throat, especially with all of those I6 Halberds with no saves allowed back then. It just seems like...he doesn't get how they work in the new rules. The problem is, even with a copy of the dex to look over, neither do I. I can usually look at an army I've played a few times, and even without a dex go "well, those guys hurt, you should use more of them, that guy was a waste, I'd take something else..." I look at the modern GKs and I really don't see the meta myself either. So I figure I'd ask people who know more about GK than I do; you guys. I guess I'm looking to learn GK tactics in the current meta to teach them to him. Sort of a crash course if you will.

 

Here's what I think I do that works well against GK, or what he might need help with:

 

Anything that forces a lot of saves, IE Template weapons. I feel like I'm really getting my money's worth out of anything that uses a template, because your points per model (PPM) costs are so high. Flamers, Thunderfire cannons, even missile launcher devis firing frags. I really feel like volume of fire hurts this army more than most because losing models hurts more.

 

Very Indecisive with the NDK. He buys literally everything he can, all the shooting weapons, all the CC weapons, he builds it to be an all comers unit, but...well when he sits back and tries to play sniper, I really feel like he's doing me a favor. Even with the gatling gun and it's 12 shots. Yeah, he gets kills, but the damn thing is at least back there. I do not feel that this unit should be played passively, am I wrong? I think he'd do a lot better to use its deep strike capabilities to get into an aggressive position so that when he wounds a unit with that big ass gun, he then charges in and finishes the job. He sort of keeps it back like a hockey goalie, and then when it gets desperate tries to run it forward when it's really too late to swing the game in his favor. I also think he can save some points by not taking the spinning rims and all the trimmings.

 

Too many terminators. I really think he probably gets distracted by the shiny, and, just because you can take so many of them doesn't mean you necessarily should. I mean, don't your regular troops (whatever passes for your tactical squad) get stormbolters, power weapons, teleporters and have access to S5 flamers? I think he could do more with less. But in the Black Templars we had the saying "there is no such thing as too many Landraiders". Is that the same with GK termies, or can you have too many.

 

Poor mobility, and poor Deep Strike positioning. I've heard a few GK players say that tanks are a waste in a GK army, because so much deep strikes, the models are so expensive and you run out of points quickly. If you aren't taking tanks for these reasons, how do you stay mobile and respond to threats and challenges to your positions? (I also think he doesn't necessarily deep strike into the best positions.)

 

I think he also probably needs another stormraven, but I thought I'd put that to you guys. For every point a rhino, razorback or Land Raider doesn't net you (from my understanding) I think these are probably worth their weight in gold. They're fast, they have good armor, they're immune to melta and they're hard to hit anyway. But as expensive as your army is, what points level would you have to play at to take two (we usually play in the 1850-2000 range), and how do you usually kit them out? 

 

Thanks guys, any help would be appreciated. This is one of my friend's favorite armies and he's put a lot of effort into it, but it doesn't seem to make him as happy as it once did.

[Prot]

Man you are going to get a TON of answers.... seriously.

 

First question:

 

Meta? This is huge. I've had people tell me 3 NDK's are stronger than 2 and it simply isn't true in my meta because I face so many spammy / poison users. So you gotta tell us about your environment.

 

Key points:

 

1. The fact people have so many opinions and experience with GK tells me there's a lot of good methods, and poor methods being applied to GK these days. (Just ask 10 different people in 10 areas of the world, and you're probably going to get 11 different answers.)

 

2. Considering no meta info, and point 1, this is just my opinion but the army is actually most functional as a -smallish- army with lots of Termies, and NDK's. In a nutshell it's very flexible actually, and very small, thus very unforgiving. (as you are indicating, a slightly bad deployment easily loses you the game with GK)

 

3. Psychic powers: This, imho, is the great equalizer. If I'm not -dominating- the psychic phase, I'm putting my junk back in the storage case. Your friend MUST embrace this concept, and work it hard. An -easy- choice here is a WL 3 Libby x 2.  With wargear, those guys are rolling up 7 powers on Sanctic between them. (I'm just keeping this simple for now.)

 

4. Combine 2 and 3 depending entirely on the opponent. Your friends small numbers can't be frittered away with bad psychic choices. He will have a LOT to choose from every turn. Picking the right powers is essential. Is it hammerhand or force? Perhaps survivability (Astraa) is the issue: Sanctuary. Too much spam (Orks), time for Cleansing flame. Stuck in with a nasty CC unit? Time to Gate away.

 

See what I mean? The choices are massive and making the wrong one for the wrong army, and spending warp dice incorrectly is often a game wrecker. It's just an experience thing.

 

5. Layering your attacks. We established the army is small. We established your friend is playing Termies and NDK's (loaded). Providing point 4 is going in the right direction, the next thing is layering the small army to rip chunks out of the larger foe..... and using the right tool for the fight. For instance, I'll typically keep my Terminators AWAY from other terminators. So the NDK has to be at arm's reach for the assist. Then plow the second one in.... Conversely the NDK's a great all around shooters. He should have the weapons loaded, they are about the only 'good' shooting he's going to get.

 

That's my easiest, 5 fast steps.

 

Other things to note:

Is he playing the formation? Or a CAD?

Are you playing Maelstrom or just straight up fighting missions?

Does he play every opponent the same way? (the points above should clear that up for what he should be doing)

What is his typical HQ?

 

On the flyer... honestly at 1850, I have trouble squeezing one in. The problem is the small number of models get to be a real issue when you haven't rolled any dice and you're already out numbered 4:1. ONE Stormraven is hard enough.... reserves suck. So you have... 25 models in 1850 (Just picked an easy number). You put 200 pts in reserve? That's approx 5 Termies off the board. Did you put something in the raven? That could beo 10-15 models off the board.  You're already down to 10 models on the table for turn 1 at 1850.

 

The Stormravens (I'm finding) are a slippery slope. You put it in reserve, it comes in when you need it, it delivers its payload? It's all gravy. Then you get the game with all these points not coming in til turn 4 and you'll curse it in such a small army.

 

That's just my 2 cents. I love the stormraven and was VERY close to using 2, but no matter how hard I tried, I couldn't make the list an all-comers. Now as I said at the beginning, a LOT of what I'm saying is based on how I like to play my GK. So take this with a grain of salt but I will say I win quite a bit with my GK. I've watched people completely dissect their lists that they've loved for months because I've destroyed it....

 

That being said, someone else here could have a huge success with 2 ravens.

[Imren]

If you choose to include the raven(s) go for multimelta! Always (assuming your opponents have vehicles) why? The raven is very mobile, and a 24" melta on flying vehicle is so damn good, you shoot at full ballistic skill no matter if you shoot at other aerial vehicles for ground vehicles, and since you choose a multimelta, it makes most sence to choose another anti-vehicle weapon and use it to wreck tanks and other fliers, so I go for lascannons. The drawback is perhaps when facing FMCs, but since the raven has two weapons and the stormstrike missiles, you still can infict multiple wounds againt wound based units FMCs.

[Rurik the blessed]

Let me tell you some facts.

 

 

- The new Grey Knights codex is far different from the 5th, but keeps the same units.

now, some units are better than other, like the terminator over Strike squads... 55 pts of difference, let you always choose terminators.

 

lack of mobility?. teleport everything on turn 1, and if you want to reposition, use Gate of Infinity or the shunt movement on teleporters. This means NO vehicles nor Dreadnoughts

 

try to max your psychic levels. extra warp dices are always welcome.

 

Don't try too hard to get those incredible useful spells like the invisibility, just go for sanctic, they are really good spells on it.

 

always take Incinerators, S6 and soulblaze is so nasty against xenos.

 

 

always cast Force... you never know when could be charged by a multiwound enemy.

[Deamon Wolf]

BT 307 I think you have in a nut shell all the basic information your friend will require from both Prot and Rurik the Blessed

 

for my own 2 penny woth lets go with 2 units Charectors and NDK

 

so as Prot has suggested LvL 3 Libbys our the main go to for the GK army simply because of the Psykik phase and if you add the book they become even better  allways take the Santic powers with them just so you can mainly buff the army or move the army using "Gate " the attack powers are nifty and if you get the Vortex card it will sacre your opponents

 

Combat boys

 

well Brotherhood Captians are good and work well with the relic armour or the relic halberd  ( dont bother with the other relics )

Brother hood Champions are ok but they really nerf your main units as they cannot deep strike  if you have a choice between the Captian or the Champrion always go with the Captian  they are the same poinrts base

 

Grandmasters are 25 points more than a Captian for just 1 more psykik level so not really worth it

 

 

Named Boys

 

 

Crow is ok but difficult to use correctly

Stern is cheap for his reroll rulse and getting Sanctury with out the rolling

Dragio is brilliant and cheap for one of the best combat boys in the game that and having gate  without the need to roll

 

NDK's

your friend seems to be running a standard one my preferance is the Heavy Incinerator and the Heavy Psycannon with the sword and jump pack

its a hard hitting lots of shooting fast  high threat unit

against my oponents he is the main target but usually gets to where he needs to be where he shoots burns and combats my opponent in to smithereeens

 

I dont usually rate the Psylancer unless you are fighting nid or deamon armies

 

hope this helps

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Anything that forces a lot of saves, IE Template weapons. I feel like I'm really getting my money's worth out of anything that uses a template, because your points per model (PPM) costs are so high. Flamers, Thunderfire cannons, even missile launcher devis firing frags. I really feel like volume of fire hurts this army more than most because losing models hurts more.

 

Nope, nope and nope. The majority of our army is in 2+ armour, we give zero cares if you hit us with AP3 or worse. You're playing into our hands if you go that way, even against the PA units it's a bad strategy. AP2 is our bane, as besides DK's and our characters we don't get strong invul saves (not without psychic powers at least). You hit us with AP2 of any kind, we melt. 

Very Indecisive with the NDK. He buys literally everything he can, all the shooting weapons, all the CC weapons, he builds it to be an all comers unit, but...well when he sits back and tries to play sniper, I really feel like he's doing me a favor. Even with the gatling gun and it's 12 shots. Yeah, he gets kills, but the damn thing is at least back there. I do not feel that this unit should be played passively, am I wrong? I think he'd do a lot better to use its deep strike capabilities to get into an aggressive position so that when he wounds a unit with that big ass gun, he then charges in and finishes the job. He sort of keeps it back like a hockey goalie, and then when it gets desperate tries to run it forward when it's really too late to swing the game in his favor. I also think he can save some points by not taking the spinning rims and all the trimmings.

 

BUY. PERSONAL. TELEPORTER. NOW

 

Read the DK' statline. It's not a firepower platform, it's a melee god with decent guns and Relentless. Shunt into the enemy's face Turn 1, unload. Turn 2, charge into melee. That's how you use DK's. You camp at range, you're just lascannon and plasma bait. 

Too many terminators. I really think he probably gets distracted by the shiny, and, just because you can take so many of them doesn't mean you necessarily should. I mean, don't your regular troops (whatever passes for your tactical squad) get stormbolters, power weapons, teleporters and have access to S5 flamers? I think he could do more with less. But in the Black Templars we had the saying "there is no such thing as too many Landraiders". Is that the same with GK termies, or can you have too many.

 

You can have too many. They're a flexible generalist that is pretty much mandatory as Troops, but they have weaknesses (AP2 and being slow). I'd say 20 is as many as you need normally, sometimes you only need 10 depending on your list. I'd say 10 is ideal actually, as that fulfills your Troops needs (NSF or CAD). I'd tell him to branch out into Purifiers and Interceptors, as they both bring options that Terminators don't have. 

Poor mobility, and poor Deep Strike positioning. I've heard a few GK players say that tanks are a waste in a GK army, because so much deep strikes, the models are so expensive and you run out of points quickly. If you aren't taking tanks for these reasons, how do you stay mobile and respond to threats and challenges to your positions? (I also think he doesn't necessarily deep strike into the best positions.)

 

Tanks are a waste because our strength is our infantry (and our vehicle roster is overpriced garbage with the exception of the Raven). You can bring Allied vehicles, Knight-Titans in particular add a durable and flexible threat that supplements DK's very well. However, our real strength is our infantry, who can kill anything in the game with the right buffs (ie psychic powers and nemesis weaponry). Staying mobile requires Ravens or personal teleporters. For that reason I think DK's are mandatory, and Interceptors are becoming more and more relevant with every enemy codex release. Eldar for example run rings around Terminators and Purifiers, even assuming you deliver them correctly. Interceptors, DK's and Ravens can chase them down. 

I think he also probably needs another stormraven, but I thought I'd put that to you guys. For every point a rhino, razorback or Land Raider doesn't net you (from my understanding) I think these are probably worth their weight in gold. They're fast, they have good armor, they're immune to melta and they're hard to hit anyway. But as expensive as your army is, what points level would you have to play at to take two (we usually play in the 1850-2000 range), and how do you usually kit them out? 

 

Higher games take two. Nose twin multi-melta, the turret should be either twin-lascannon or twin-assault cannon. Don't take hurricanes, we have S4 shooting galore. I'd consider a locator beacon, as it lets you 'Shadow Skies' without scatter. But yeah they're an amazing gunship, and we need them so much nowadays. The problem is they cost as much as a normal DK loadout, and we're not a cheap army to field. So yeah, take a pair of them in larger games, in smaller games you'll just have to tough it out. One is too much of a liability, you need multiples. 

Thanks guys, any help would be appreciated. This is one of my friend's favorite armies and he's put a lot of effort into it, but it doesn't seem to make him as happy as it once did.

 

Join the club. If he wants more help, tell him to check out the Primers stickied at the top of the forum. They're a community effort to help new or returning players. Our 7th edition codex is a completely different animal to our 5th edition one.