Slips Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 I made a 2.5k Pure Knight List using the 30k Questoris Knight FoC; which the new Knight Codex might be giving a version of to 40k. Why? Because its a Pipedream and because it would be mean. Also because I was brainstorming some silly lists to take down Eldar with. This is the Result: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307069-imperial-knights-2500-pipedream/?do=findComment&comment=4029347 Or if you dont want to go to another link: +++ KNIGHTS! (2500pts) +++ ++ Questoris Knight Crusade Army (Questoris Knight Crusade Army) (2500pts) ++ + HQ (430pts) + Seneschal (430pts) [Cerastus Knight-Castigator] ····Deflagrate, Flank Speed, Household Rank, Ideal Mission Commander, Master Knight, Tempest Attack + Troops (370pts) + Scion Martial (370pts) [Questoris Knight Errant] ····Household Rank, Objective Secured + Elites (430pts) + Preceptor (430pts) [Questoris Knight Styrix] ····Blessed Autosimulacra, Deflagrate, Graviton Pulse, Household Rank, Oracle of Battle, Overtaxed Reactor + Fast Attack (840pts) + Scion Dolorous (440pts) [Cerastus Knight-Acheron] ····Dolorous Charge, Flank Speed, Household Rank, Machine Destroyer, Worthy Foe Scion Uhlan (400pts) [Cerastus Knight-Lancer] ····Flank Speed, Household Rank, Impetuous Advance, Swift Strike, Uhlan's Scorn + Heavy Support (430pts) + Scion Arbalester (430pts) [Questoris Knight Styrix] ····Blessed Autosimulacra, Deflagrate, Graviton Pulse, Household Rank, Overtaxed Reactor, Weapon Calibration Decided to Include the summary of their Rules for the Curious. In Short: -Seneschal: 10 MB Cost upgrade that gives +1BS, +1WS and +1 Invulnerable. May Re-Roll WL Trait. One of which (6) is IWND -Scion Martial: Free, No buffs. -Preceptor: 5 MB Cost, Gives +1 to your reserves and -1 To enemy and all knights withing 6" Interceptor and perform Overwatch as an Exception to the Normal Rules for SH. Hellstorm Templates Deal D6 hits instead of D3 if performing Overwatch. Other Knights must be part of the Same Detachment to benefit. -Dolorous: 5 MB Cost, Re-roll Charge and Sweeping Advance. Must Charge either: Knight, Walker, MC, Primarch, S-HW or GC if able. -Uhlan: Free, Gains Scout and Hit & Run, -1 To front Armor, may only Snap-Shoot if targets are 24"+ Away. -Arbalester: 5 MB Cost, Gains Tank Hunter, If it has not moved, Gains Skyfire. For those that do not know, The Styrix has: -30k Graviton Gun: 18" S* Ap 4 Wounds on an Strength Test (6s always wound), Haywire, Concussive, Heavy 1, Blast 3". The Terrain under the blast is then treated as Difficult/Dangerous Terrain until the next turn. -Volkite Chieroville: 45" S8 Ap3 Heavy 5, Deflagrate (failed wounds to the unit/model[if multi-wound] cause another automatic hit which cannot itself cause another hit if the subsequent wound is failed) -Can Swap its Reaper Chainsword for a Hekaton Siege Claw: Melee S:D Wrecked (its for buildings, inconsequential) and a Rad Cleanser: Template, S2 Ap5 Assault1, Fleshbane and Rad Phage ( A model which loses one or more wounds to an attack with this rule and survives suffers a -1 penalty to its Toughness value for the rest of the battle. This can Stack) For the Cost of 5 Melta Bombs. Edit: Forgot about the Different Ion Shield: The Knight has a 4+ invulnerable save against all hits on that facing until the start of the opposing side's next shooting phase. The strength of any shooting attack is reduced by -1, increasing to -2 if the weapon has the blast or template rule. This does not effect Destroyer or Haywire attacks. Ionic flare shields are repositioned before any attacks are carried out and may not protect against close combat attacks. (Styrix and Magaera) The Rest you probably know the rules to. If they look oddly expensive, its because the Household Rank has a points cost associated to it for the corresponding benefits. Note: Hopefully, you aren't all forgetting that a Knight-Lancer in combat with another S-HW or GC give it a -1 To-Hit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306982-taking-on-wraithknights/page/2/#findComment-4029358 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithrilForge Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 Im glad you guys sorted this out Cause Mathhammer is booooooring No one ever factors Luck, blessings of the Omnissiah,The proper anointing of sacred oils on random number devices... a Positive attitude towards your Goal of ++Hard Data++ Collection ...from dead bodies ... But i see you both Agree that taking a IK against a WK is not the optimum solution ... Lets hope the Ad Mech adds some extra Punch ! Mithril Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306982-taking-on-wraithknights/page/2/#findComment-4029362 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronin_cse Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 Im glad you guys sorted this out Cause Mathhammer is booooooring No one ever factors Luck, blessings of the Omnissiah,The proper anointing of sacred oils on random number devices... a Positive attitude towards your Goal of ++Hard Data++ Collection ...from dead bodies ... But i see you both Agree that taking a IK against a WK is not the optimum solution ... Lets hope the Ad Mech adds some extra Punch ! Mithril Well...we are Ad. Mech, math IS the will of the Omnissiah ;). Math hammer helps decide which luck will be the best luck. You can always roll 9 ones twice in a row with your vanguard plasmas, but you can make decisions based on that not happening because it is VERY unlikely Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306982-taking-on-wraithknights/page/2/#findComment-4029383 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 But it will happen when you least expect it and it will be table flippingly frustrating. #justasplanned :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306982-taking-on-wraithknights/page/2/#findComment-4029396 Share on other sites More sharing options...
d@n Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 Neutron laser the wraith knight until you get an unsaved wound and then charge in with your knight. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306982-taking-on-wraithknights/page/2/#findComment-4029850 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 Charging it isn't the issue. S10 melee with WS4 A4 will not do much. Unless the WK carries the blade, which won't be happening unless comped, the IK will win melee almost every time. The issue is surviving the two D shots at range to get into melee in the first place. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306982-taking-on-wraithknights/page/2/#findComment-4029959 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithrilForge Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 Lets Go all Flash Gordon here..."Open Fire!,All Weapons!"... Mithril Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306982-taking-on-wraithknights/page/2/#findComment-4030427 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronin_cse Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 Charging it isn't the issue. S10 melee with WS4 A4 will not do much. Unless the WK carries the blade, which won't be happening unless comped, the IK will win melee almost every time. The issue is surviving the two D shots at range to get into melee in the first place. Even after that catching it is a big problem. Both can move 12" but the WK is a Jump Gargantuan Creature as well so isn't slowed by terrain. I think you really need to sacrifice another unit to tie it up first. I think the best way to deal with a Wraithknight is the same as before: ignore it, or tie it up with a cheap horde unit, until there aren't any better targets to go after. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306982-taking-on-wraithknights/page/2/#findComment-4030600 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 Well, as I said, Vanguard help. And if the rumours are true, the Cult Troops will be sort of Centurion lite, being Relentless with Grav Cannon. If this is true, this will be out ticket to kill MCs, thus moving AT duty to Skitarii Arc Rifle spam, saving 45pts per unit compared to the allrounder Plasma Caliver variant. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306982-taking-on-wraithknights/page/2/#findComment-4030647 Share on other sites More sharing options...
d@n Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 Well between neutron lasers and plasma calivers and bs7 I can't imagine that the wraith knight is much of a problem. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306982-taking-on-wraithknights/page/2/#findComment-4030860 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Bill Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 I have been wanting to math-hammer the WK, but I do not have the codex. What saves does he get? Wounds, T? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306982-taking-on-wraithknights/page/2/#findComment-4030898 Share on other sites More sharing options...
d@n Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 3+ Armour save 6 wounds and toughness 8 if my memory serves. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306982-taking-on-wraithknights/page/2/#findComment-4030901 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethernitas Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 3+ Armour save 6 wounds and toughness 8 if my memory serves. Indeed. On top of that he gets a 5+ FnP and sniper/poison weapons only wound it on sixes. WS is only 4 but it sports initiative 5 and a natural S10 in melee even without the S:D melee weapons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306982-taking-on-wraithknights/page/2/#findComment-4030962 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 Vanguard are probably pretty good as if you manage to wound you get extra ones forcing saves, but yes Grav will rock if Mech get it! Apparently new tracked units have a "Plasma Culverin", I'm hoping even better than the Caliver :D at least an extra shot and range, or maybe blast. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306982-taking-on-wraithknights/page/2/#findComment-4030973 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Bill Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 On average you would need 3 full units of vanguard shooting into a WK to drop it in a turn. Two units with 3xplasma calivers can do it as well, but nowhere near well enough to justify the points vs WK since you can buy more than a unit of vanguard for just the price of the 6xplasmma caliver upgrades. I am having a tough time seeing the plasma caliver ever worth taking. That is a ton of points to be OK vs MCs and OK vs armor. I would rather take the arc rifles and make the unit a holy terror vs armor and OK vs everything else. Edit: Relying on rolling sixes still scares me. The variance is just so high. I need to roll 13 dice on the to-wound roll before I have less than a 10% chance of a unit doing absolutely nothing if I need a 6 to wound :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306982-taking-on-wraithknights/page/2/#findComment-4031133 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 Vanguard are probably pretty good as if you manage to wound you get extra ones forcing saves, but yes Grav will rock if Mech get it! Apparently new tracked units have a "Plasma Culverin", I'm hoping even better than the Caliver at least an extra shot and range, or maybe blast. Well, didn't they say the tracked dudes can also gain access to Grav Cannons? Either way, I guess we will need to check what the Culverin does, because there is also an option with Heavy Arc-something, being a heavier version of the Arc Rifle. I suppose the choice will be between Caliver Vanguard + Arc tracked dudes or Culverin tracked dudes and Arc Rangers/Vanguard. We do not know what the Cult army rule is, but I suspect that Vanguard might be superior due to their Doctrines, giving them re-rolls to Gets Hot, and access to Omnispecs. So unless the Culverin is massively better, I suspect that Grav (if they get it) and Arc will be the premier choices. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306982-taking-on-wraithknights/page/2/#findComment-4031206 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellrender Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 I'm not well versed in the Imperium, but Imperials do get loads of allies. How would one of the assassins (especially vindicare) fare against a WK? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306982-taking-on-wraithknights/page/2/#findComment-4031339 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 I'm not well versed in the Imperium, but Imperials do get loads of allies. How would one of the assassins (especially vindicare) fare against a WK? He may wound it reliably with one shot or possibly do two wounds with one shot, but that is still 1-2 wounds that can be ignored with FnP. Not enough output to bring it down. He can shoot that thing for an entire game and still not kill it. Vindicares are supposed to either shoot high value vehicles or isolate characters/weapons in units and take them out, and not hunt big monsters ;) Culexus can not wound it because of T8 vs S4. I am not very well versed on the others though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306982-taking-on-wraithknights/page/2/#findComment-4031456 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shandwen Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 The calidus has a ap2 template that is posioned (worthless here), and the eversor has meltabombs. So assasins don't really help. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306982-taking-on-wraithknights/page/2/#findComment-4031827 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronin_cse Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 I'm not well versed in the Imperium, but Imperials do get loads of allies. How would one of the assassins (especially vindicare) fare against a WK? I did the math for the Evesor vs a WK while I was at work today and if I remember right it wasn't great. I THINK he gets like 2 wounds (might be less) on average in CC since his fleshbane attacks don't ignore the armor. I imagine the power sword is worse since he has to wound on a six with it. He'll get stomped, probably literally, once the WK hits back. I guess a hellfire round from a vindicare would help whittle one down but you certainly need more. The calidus has a ap2 template that is posioned (worthless here), and the eversor has meltabombs. So assasins don't really help. The template isn't actually poisoned, the rule just makes it wound on a 4+ so it's still effective against a WK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306982-taking-on-wraithknights/page/2/#findComment-4031885 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 Just one single wound. That is not good enough. We need at least 2-3 wounds per unit to call it somewhat effective against a WK. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306982-taking-on-wraithknights/page/2/#findComment-4031936 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellrender Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 Yeh, fairly ineffective then. Vanguard and onagars seems the best bet then so far?? Maybe admech will give us more. But the chaos peeps have it worse.. Still, ignoring the wk, and killing the rest of the army seems the best bet I think. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306982-taking-on-wraithknights/page/2/#findComment-4031937 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 Yeh, fairly ineffective then. Vanguard and onagars seems the best bet then so far?? Maybe admech will give us more. But the chaos peeps have it worse.. Still, ignoring the wk, and killing the rest of the army seems the best bet I think. Indeed. As long as you do not have any high value targets that might lose you the game if removed T1, then you can safely ignore the IK for a few turns. What is he going to do. Kill 2 Skitters per turn? Colour me unimpressed. On a side note, I like the idea of naked Vanguard killing that thing. If you are worried that your IK will be killed before you get a chance to do something, consider this. If you are a starting, scout Vanguards to the WK and bring it down. 2-3 naked units might already be enough, Cult units will bring adequate weaponry as well so there shouldn't be an issue. If you are going second, leave the IK in reserve, clean of the D, then have the IK enter and wreak havoc among the remaining forces. Void Shields work as well. Deploy the IK and possibly some other high value armour in there. The Eldar will either need to waste his S6 spam to bring the Shields down, potentially distracting half his army, or the WK will need to consider shooting something else since D simply gets absorbed. I know I will be getting me some Void Shield goodness :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306982-taking-on-wraithknights/page/2/#findComment-4031945 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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