ETL and new codex considerations....

[Prot]

I know this is crazy, but maybe I have a legit concern....

 

My 'current' chaos army is predominantly red... Crimson Slaughter, and that kind of red.

 

I feel strongly (not just from rumour threads but common sense) that there will be a new chaos codex by late summer/earl fall. 

 

Considering this I was thinking of what I could do for Chaos for ETL... and basically it comes down to filling out formations. As some of you know, I'm not a daemon fan, I like my CSM.... (I have boxes of spawn I haven't even opened)

 

So to complete my Kranon's Helguard, I COULD do some models I've been avoiding namely:

- 5+ Raptors (not even assembled)

- 3 Helbrutes (you know the deal.... )

- 1-2 Forgefiend/maulerfiend (I just have the kit hanging around)

- 1 Primed BaleDrake.

 

 

What's the problem? Well first I have to finish my Grey Knight vow. No problem, I'm currently plowing through it.

 

What I'm worried about is what's happened with some codex releases. I have a gut feeling the Crimson Slaughter are basically going to be non-existent in the next iteration. They aren't an original Legion and GW are kind of famous for moving on and basically making a foot note out of the last chaos poster child.

 

IE: I feel I was burned by the Red Corsairs. (this is why I stopped doing them)

 

What do you guys think of this? Should I change themes? Keep it very 'common' (IE: Black Legion? World Eaters?) or continue and risk obscurity?

 

 

 

 

[Captain Semper]

ermm... just to clarify, you cannot change allegiances during the ETL.

[Warsmith Aznable]

What I'm worried about is what's happened with some codex releases. I have a gut feeling the Crimson Slaughter are basically going to be non-existent in the next iteration. They aren't an original Legion and GW are kind of famous for moving on and basically making a foot note out of the last chaos poster child.

 

IE: I feel I was burned by the Red Corsairs. (this is why I stopped doing them)

 

What do you guys think of this? Should I change themes? Keep it very 'common' (IE: Black Legion? World Eaters?) or continue and risk obscurity?

I'm not sure I understand the question/concern.

 

How were you burned by the Red Corsairs?

[Vesper]

Man, I don't think we'll get a Chaos codex anytime soon. I think we'll have to wait a year or two.

[Iron Skull Mask]

Hey Prot, too bad you are lost to the Chaos faction for this ETL :/

But with regard to an upcoming codex, I wouldn't be too concerned. Even in the colors of the crimson slaughter you can still play any rules from the new dex, maybe except any specific legion rules (which are probably unlikely to happen anyway). And even if there were legion rules, CS could easily pass as World Eaters in my mind.

Still, I have to name you, Prot, and Warsmith Aznable "Traitor of Traitors" for this years ETL! You may add this title to your signatures if you wish [Disclaimer: this is meant as a joke in good humor - I'm making this so painfully clear, as I seem to be lacking in this department at times].

[Castigator]

For what it's worth, I've been told that there is no chance of Codex: Chaos Space Marines being updated this year. I was told this 12 months ago, along with Eldar, Marines and two Mechanicus dexes being released this year. GW releases aren't set in stone, unaccountable events can alter their release schedule somewhat, so my source can tell me what they're working on but not when they'll be released. The last time we spoke he said that there was no Chaos Marine update Codex being worked on.

I do think Crimson Slaughter will be safe when a new Codex is eventually released. Unlike the Iyanden Supplement, the Crimson Slaughter only adds a small amount of rules/wargear and the only change to force organisation is Possessed becoming a Troops choice. Unfortunately it is pure speculation on my part, they may well incorporate Legion/Chapter specific Formations in an updated Codex for all I know, but I do think it will be a way off yet.

[Scribe]

Unless they make Crimson Slaughter the focus of the next book, and frankly the current CSM is more Renegade than Legion, so theres potential there.

 

Now, will your formation stay valid? Almost certainly not. The Supplements are all going to be invalidated imo with each parent codex release, but we will see.

[Kol Saresk]

They really shouldn't though. If all of the supplements and formations are written like the Crimson Slaughter codex in that when it comes to unit points cost and stats, you are always referred to the main Codex, then they should still remain valid since nothing has actually been invalidated. For example, the alternate table for Possessed and the unique relics are still separate from the main Codex. But as long as the Possessed still exist, there is nothing to invalidate them simply having an alternate table.

[Lucio]

It's one of the difficult conundrums, they won't replace the codex and the supplements at the same time, and yet often won't think it's worthwhile releasing them all again at the same time.

 

Personally I think this is where GW get things wrong. Only the Codex should be in physical form, the supplements should be offered as eBook only, and without significant artwork, so they can be re-released faster.

 

h and Prot, since you're a vile traitor to Chaos, send me all your unpainted Chaos Marine miniatures so we can still get them entered :)

[Forté]

I wouldn't worry at all. The amount of time and money that has gone into Crimson Slaughter it is unlikely they will abandon them even if a new Codex was to come out (which I doubt anyway). More likely I think would be another Daemonkin type Codex with another Greater Daemon.

 

Go for what you feel you will actually complete rather than vowing too much and not finishing.

[Lord Asvaldir]

 

I feel strongly (not just from rumour threads but common sense) that there will be a new chaos codex by late summer/earl fall. 

 

I wish I could share that feeling, unfortunately given we just got Khorne Deamonkin I don't see it to be very likely we'll get a full blown new codex anytime soon. Plus if there is another chaos release this year, my bet would be another mini dex, namely another god's daemonkin-which is unfortunate because a full blown new codex would help us so much more.  

[markham82]

Do nothing, paint for the XIII^th

Edit: my spelling is delicious

[Prot]

ermm... just to clarify, you cannot change allegiances during the ETL.

whoa... wait, really? You can tell Chaos not to be traitors and they listen? What strange universe have I woke up in?

Okay as far as allegiances, what does that mean exactly? Because I still have lots of Ultra's I was going to consider after GK... but are they different Allegiances?

Hypothetically, stick with me here... *if* I failed my GK ETL Vow, then could I do something for another army?

I'm not saying I would do that, but literally If I knew that I could not do other (allegiance) vows, I wouldn't have done GK because I have barely any to do.... So that really sucks.

[Prot]

Do nothing, paint for the XIII^th

Edit: my spelling is delicious

You haunt me from everywhere. lol

I feel strongly (not just from rumour threads but common sense) that there will be a new chaos codex by late summer/earl fall.

I wish I could share that feeling, unfortunately given we just got Khorne Deamonkin I don't see it to be very likely we'll get a full blown new codex anytime soon. Plus if there is another chaos release this year, my bet would be another mini dex, namely another god's daemonkin-which is unfortunate because a full blown new codex would help us so much more.

I just think that the rumours are very bad lately until nearly something is released. The Chaos/Dark Angel thing this summer? What about that? That's a 'strong' rumour.... But regardless I just don't see Chaos getting lots of models, thus it would be an 'easy' codex to do and it's so long in the tooth it makes real sense to do it before Christmas (lately the Christmas releases are huge, and on popular armies.)

I wouldn't worry at all. The amount of time and money that has gone into Crimson Slaughter it is unlikely they will abandon them even if a new Codex was to come out (which I doubt anyway). More likely I think would be another Daemonkin type Codex with another Greater Daemon.

Go for what you feel you will actually complete rather than vowing too much and not finishing.

I wish I felt that way, but I watched the way they ditched Red Corsairs, which are hardly a footnote in the current Chaos.... I dunno. I hope you're right.

And I see we're split on whether the formations would exist, or the supplement would be valid... really I have no idea. I kinda hate this not knowing when you play a 'fringe' chaos warband/chapter.

+EDIT+

Sorry I see this conversation is moot for me now. I have looked it up, and since my first vow is GK, I am only able to vow now for "IFOR". But the conversation may be valid for someone else out there I suppose.

[Captain Semper]

 

ermm... just to clarify, you cannot change allegiances during the ETL. :confused:

 

 

whoa... wait,  really? You can tell Chaos not to be traitors and they listen? What strange universe have I woke up in?

 

Okay as far as allegiances, what does that mean exactly? Because I still have lots of Ultra's I was going to consider after GK... but are they different Allegiances? 

 

Hypothetically, stick with me here... *if* I failed my GK ETL Vow, then could I do something for another army? 

 

I'm not saying I would do that, but literally If I knew that I could not do other (allegiance) vows, I wouldn't have done GK because I have barely any to do.... So that really sucks.

Ok, since there was a major misunderstanding of the rules I can give you the opportunity to change Factions. PM me to discuss further...

[Forté]

And Red Corsairs never had their own Codex or models in a starter set.

[Lord Asvaldir]

Do nothing, paint for the XIII^th

Edit: my spelling is delicious

You haunt me from everywhere. lol

I feel strongly (not just from rumour threads but common sense) that there will be a new chaos codex by late summer/earl fall.

I wish I could share that feeling, unfortunately given we just got Khorne Deamonkin I don't see it to be very likely we'll get a full blown new codex anytime soon. Plus if there is another chaos release this year, my bet would be another mini dex, namely another god's daemonkin-which is unfortunate because a full blown new codex would help us so much more.

I just think that the rumours are very bad lately until nearly something is released. The Chaos/Dark Angel thing this summer? What about that? That's a 'strong' rumour.... But regardless I just don't see Chaos getting lots of models, thus it would be an 'easy' codex to do and it's so long in the tooth it makes real sense to do it before Christmas (lately the Christmas releases are huge, and on popular armies.)

I completely agree with you there, I regularly read rumors and half are just wrong, the other half are about release just a week or two in advance. Just wish I could see a new chaos codex happening soon, as I feel like with khorne deamonkin out GW will make more deamonkin books instead of a full new codex.

[Tenebris]

Prot, you traitor!
 

Betrayal aside here is my take on the whole Chaos thing. It is clear to me that the game is progressing very fast, effectively invalidating older publications and substituting them with newer ones. Indeed that is a predicament for every Chaos player focused on expanding his army, or for every player who like you and me, likes to plan things out. My solution is not a solution per se but it is what I find the best for planning out an army which is going to be updated and radically changed with the next book we get (by this I mean codex and not supplement). What I do effectively is to tone things down to the basic level and consider what would benefit my long term plan most...

 

• In terms of color scheme I advise a generic or DIY color scheme. This is the classic red/brass, Black Legion, IW, NL, WB. 
• In terms of units I advise to either go wild with conversion or keep the models straight out of the box, Undivided.
• In terms of vehicles I say to avoid any particular markings and keep the generic "Undivided" look.
• In terms of background, we are Chaos, everything is possible, every background is viable.
• In terms of assembly, keep with the general "space marine" theme. Classic builds, melta over plasma, power weapons...
• In terms of army expansion, strictly buy only that which is currently viable, expect major changes in models and looks.
• In terms of allies, I know you do not like it but go Daemons, they are eternal and their color schemes fixed.
• In terms of projects, paint only those things you need, nothing else for we know not what will happen and time is precious.
• In terms of rumor policy, follow but do not obsess, read between the lines, try to be precognitive as much as you can.
• In terms of gaming, suffer but do not despair, one day it will be you who will be the king of the tabletop in your club.
• In terms of longevity, focus on your army at the exclusion of others, one army means one project which means best results. 
• In terms of money, ties to several points above but if you focus on one single army, you have only one buying list. 

There is truth that Chaos will change, though I doubt it will change this year or maybe even the next. Currently GW is desperate, they need to fix their account hence they invest in those armies which are the least fuss to do, Eldar, SM, Necrons and desperation alone drives them to newer and faster releases. It is not an active role, but a reaction to their company balance and the correction of their business model. Long story short, they need to bank in some cash and they have to revision their whole trading/franchise policy which so far was stagnant. What happened is that GW was too secure on their throne atop the tabletop genre and now confronted with the dire reality and truth, of knowing that their throne is shaking, leads them to this express policies. We must not begrudge them that, survival on nowadays markets is a tough call. 

 

What concerns with Chaos, and Chaos Space Marines is particular, is that we are the army which perhaps needs a complete redesign and with the Daemonkin, GW is testing the waters. They know what is happening to us, they know it very very well, but considering the more important problems they have their hands are tied, forcing them to focus on the big sellers first. What this means for Chaos is that we will be the beaten dogs for a year or two more, maybe even for the next ten years, but in time we will get our model design updated, our rules renewed and our armies viable once more. It will take time, and plenty of testing with the Daemonkin, before GW will commit to Chaos once again. This year it is almost impossible, maybe the next?

 

Do not fret over the doom and gloom, we are used to a life in the very hell itself, so discomfort is only a passing moment (though I admit it lasts for the past ten years), but one day we shall rise again. 

 

I have simply admitted to this situation, I have evaluated many a point about Chaos in general and I have even had a discussion with the WD team on why is Chaos that neglected. All I can say is that "we have no plans for Chaos Space Marines at the moment, maybe in the future" so I don't stress much. Here is what I will do:

 

• In terms of color scheme I will paint my models with the classic Chaos scheme. Bright red and Gold/Brass trim. 
• In terms of units I will keep my models clean and straight out of the box, no conversions, no upgrade kits. 
• In terms of vehicles I will assemble them very basic and avoid any particular markings or upgrade kits. 
• In terms of background, my warband are Thousand Sons, they keep their old legion scheme, they are nostalgic. 
• In terms of assembly, my models will have no special features and I will build a model for every weapon option we have.
• In terms of army expansion, I won't budge to GW and I will buy only the core book when it is released.
• In terms of allies, Daemons. Always useful and their colors will be unchanged. 
• In terms of projects, I paint only what I field the rest sits on my shelf.
• In terms of rumor policy, I follow them regularly, I jump and even comment on Chaos rumors but I see them as maybes.
• In terms of gaming, when I play I usually loose since I have no D weapons, still I try to kill loyalist marines every tournament. 
• In terms of longevity, my army is Chaos, nothing more and nothing less. I have sold all other armies/projects. 
• In terms of money, I have an Excel spreadsheet with my Chaos collection list. I buy only what I need or when a good deal presents itself.

ETL? I will do what I have said above, vow what I plan to use and what really needs to be done this year. Won't be much but at least it will be painted, which is the whole purpose of the event. The color scheme I use will be the most basic one for Chaos, bright red and gold trim. This color scheme could be used to represent several things, Pre-Heresy Thousand Sons, World Eaters, Crimson Slaughter, DIY warband, fallen Blood Angels, you name it... At this moment I don't care much what it is or what it represents, what matters is that my models get painted and that I train my brush skills. 

[Leif Bearclaw]

No way the Crimson Slaughter are going to be non-existent in the next Codex. Maybe the Supplement goes away (but if a new dex is decent, there'd be no need for the better relic list anyway). But you seem to be ignoring one salient point here amongst all you doom and gloom. In recent years CS have replaced BL as the Colour scheme of the models on the boxes, not to mention in the Starter Set. They are literally the poster boys now, in a way Red Corsairs never were. So it seems reasonable to expect the CS to retain some fluff attention in any new dex (as much as any one gets these days), as GW aren't going to waste resources repackaging their models with new pictures so soon.

[Lucio]

It's very possible that the next CSM codex doesn't bother with a Crimson Slaughter supplement, it might even not bother with a Black Legion one either and focus instead of options like the Khorne Daemonkin.

 

The Chaos market is, by it's nature, fragments, each individual "camp" wanting support which makes it harder compared to the Armies of the Imperium to develop a product line which appeals to sufficient numbers to justify the production costs.

 

After all, look at how much longer the Skulltaker edition of the Khorne Codex took to sell out compared to say, Eldar, and they printed less (888 vs 1000)

 

I expect a new direction to arise where Chaos is focused on the 4 Gods, with a middle ground Codex to cover the basic armies. It'll take time to reach that point though, because they want Chaos fans to buy *all* of the God's products, otherwise the production runs aren't worthwhile. I'd imagine that there's been specific research into people's spending habits to identify where and when they make purchases, how frequently etc.

[Trevak Dal]

I wouldn't worry at all. The amount of time and money that has gone into Crimson Slaughter it is unlikely they will abandon them even if a new Codex was to come out (which I doubt anyway). More likely I think would be another Daemonkin type Codex with another Greater Daemon.

 

Go for what you feel you will actually complete rather than vowing too much and not finishing.

Not to mention that it sets up a good picture:  Red Vs Blue and such (with Ultramarines being the defacto Imperial Cover guys)

[Prot]

Thanks for the thoughts and ideas... especially Tenebris as that's a lot of thought put into that post, and I can see a lot of 'what concerns someone who's been playing chaos a long time' is put into that post!

 

First off what I mean by 'abandoned' for Crimson Slaughter is in a wholesale sense. I know they will exist in the least as a 2" thumbnail in the 'new' codex. But to me, yes, Red Corsairs were abandoned. I think at the time all the White Dwarfs used them, there were novels, and short stories about Huron and the Red Corsairs, in depth shorts in the codex itself, and one guy in the studio (Matt) who championed them, making sure they were in batreps. After the next codex came out, they went to thumbnail status. No more fiction, the formations were never further developed, etc, etc, etc.

 

The primary legions will always be there. But I have admitted I read a LOT of this stuff. It may sound goofy but I am highly motivated by the novels / stories I buy and read... weekly. I read everything I could on the Red Corsaids and Huron, and now I read every book/story I am aware of for Crimson Slaughter (I'm reading the Assassin book right now! (CS Sorc in here... a defiant little jerk too. lol )

 

Anyway, there are times like these, I do wish I just stuck out Black Legion -or- Iron Warriors because nothing 'felt' off limits for them and you know they'll never disappear. 

 

Secondly, there was no intent - at all for 'doom and gloom' in my post. It was just something on my mind... it is what it is. But to me it is a valid concern when you hook your wagon up to a supplement and it could disappear.  (I read about Iyanden fans disappointments) 

 

Finally the extra conversation that came out of this is about a new codex. I struggle to think it would take over full year or two(!) to get a new codex. I think of Necrons as a good example of a Codex that had a lot of weird, broken or just dated entries. And while GW probably don't have great sales with Necrons, they did increase some sales by simply revamping units that were sagging. They only release ONE new model, flipped the codex, and probably sold a good chunk of models as a result. (I know most stores I am aware off could not keep Tomb Blades in stock). 

 

It would be logical for Chaos to follow a similar path as the Necron release. Strictly imo, but still, waiting over a year is crazy long, considering... Eldar? 

 

Anyway thanks for the advice in the thread. It's some stuff to consider, but I will confess the idea of not getting a codex for over year is both good and bad. Good because I feel less of a loss in what I do have painted, and bad because of the obvious. :)

[Warsmith Aznable]

One of the ways I maintain motivation is writing my own stories. I play Iron Warriors, but a warband of the Iron Warriors who have gone off on their own path. Exploring how they are both still Iron Warriors and at the same also this other thing keeps my mind working. Also fleshing out the individual squads or subsections and how tgey relate to the whole. I'm slowly fleshing out an entire Grand Company, so I don't see the project running out any time soon.

 

I also write fictionalised battle reports and attach pictures from those games to them. I havent done that in a while, though.

 

That sort of thing doesn't have to be limited to DIY warbands, especially if the writers at GW abandon fleshing out an official faction themselves. It's also kind of cool to see people still carrying the flame of older fluff, like the people who do Rainbow Warriors and groups like that who have become obscure or forgotten by the newer fans.

 

If you really like it, hold on to it.

[Prot]

That's a cool idea. I do play a lot of games... I have 4 scheduled this week... a busy week coming up for 40k lol.

 

I usually post a batrep every week or two if I remember pictures, and those are fun ways of adding to your enjoyment of an army.... through good times and bad. (I don't think anyone has killed themselves as much as I have from the Chaos stuff. )

 

I do find frustration in trying to make units work over and over again that just need tweaking so badly. But this comes from playing a lot. I do find a lot of chaos players that -stay- chaos don't really play... or all that often. (Not all, but many are like this.)

 

I'm usually facing something fairly potent.. not Draigo-Cent/Gate, but still, some fairly potent stuff. So this can be where you truly feel the age of your army. I have't played Deathguard in several editions so I've been stuck a bit there. 

 

But I think I'm okay with Crimson Slaughter since my scheme parallels World Eaters so much I can swap in and out of that mode if need be. 

 

I'm just getting together all my projects... from all my PA armies. 

[Iron Skull Mask]

You can also always declare them Word Bearers with their color scheme. Some even argue that's what CS should have been in the first place ;)