ETL and new codex considerations....

[Scribe]

The Legions are a thumbnail as far as the codex is concerned, I wouldnt worry about it so much.

 

I too am highly motivated by the stories and the fluff, any ADB novel gets me at the till with my cash in hand (seriously) but you cant expect GW to support every single faction and colour combination in novels/fluff.

[Trevak Dal]

I fell hard for Enclave Tau.  Ever since I first read about Farsight, I was intrigued by him and his Enclaves, and so naturally the ability to field ALL my crisis suits as troops (plus a couple of 2 suit teams in elites if I don't want to take my two Riptides or Stealth suits) and it would/will suck when GeeDub drops supplement support (though I'm in favor of it continuing on), I can STILL run my same army, and cheaper to boot, I'd just have to take Firewarriors or Kroot as troops and have multiple detachments.

 

Now, it'd be annoying if I lost The Eight...but if I did, I'd be getting 5 more crisis suits back, so that's a win in and of itself (probably make a Firebat team, and two more double fusion guys)

[Scribe]

I'm of the mind that the Supplements will just be replaced with Formations when the parent book is redone, Eldar kind of did this with Iyaden (or however you spell it)

[Tenebris]

 

I do find frustration in trying to make units work over and over again that just need tweaking so badly. But this comes from playing a lot. I do find a lot of chaos players that -stay- chaos don't really play... or all that often. (Not all, but many are like this.)

 

I'm usually facing something fairly potent.. not Draigo-Cent/Gate, but still, some fairly potent stuff. So this can be where you truly feel the age of your army. I have't played Deathguard in several editions so I've been stuck a bit there. 

 

 

 

I agree with the statement above. As a Chaos moderator I am to be the one saying that all is good and that we will see better times, but that role is increasingly difficult since I play regular games every month and I have lost every single one since December past year. Why? Because I refuse to give in and use loyalist units like the Imperial Knight or to make my CSM just a token force among Daemons or Renegade Guard. I always go against quite hardcore lists and I have yet to win a game against the Eldar, the new Necrons and the many Centurion/Draigo stars which are a bane of my existence on tabletop. It is very hard to stay positive and true to our faction with my record of defeats, a record which is increasing since the advent of the Eldar and Centurions. 

 

I say stay true to Chaos and I mean it, but I feel betrayed by GW every time I put my CSM models on the board. Actually it happens so that I am finding excuses to not play since I know that I have zero chance against the current tournament level lists in my area, and I play in a very tournament heavy environment. It is a pity, for I love Chaos and I love competitive gameplay. I adore a challenge but I am frustrated when I remove entire units by turn three. 

 

Long story short I feel that I must have faith in my faction and I advise you all to have it but I am not blind to what is happening on tabletop, we are loosing badly and it seems that this will not end until we get a proper CSM codex. Said that I refuse to buckle and go the loyalist route. As have said time and again, Battle Brothers alliances could save the pity of our codex but it is not to be so. 

[Lucio]

I'll admit that I struggle with the idea that my Chaos troops are inferior when in the past 4 weeks of my first proper games in nearly 20 years I have killed

 

- A Space Marine army, including a 5 man Possessed squad taking out a Landspeeder

- A Necron army, sure the Overlord was stupidly tough to hurt but the rest of the army died quickly.

- An Imperial Guard army, highlight was having a single squad of Bikers take out a super heavy and Berzkers having to shoot someone to death due to Rhinos not being assault vehicles

 

So yeah Chaos might not have all the toys in comparison but we can win games with good tactics and tailored army lists.

[Tenebris]

Tailored lists... this is a thing that sadly I cannot do for much of my games are in tournament and campaigns. I am happy that many of you score relevant wins but I know that there is nothing wrong with my tactics, I am a long term player and tournament goer, but I am aware that I cannot stand up to the horrors we see on nowadays tables. The horrors I speak are the Necron Decurion, the Centurion-Stars, the Draigo-bombs, Eldar in all shapes and forms and in general terms all the updated books. It is not the single armies per se which are our anathema, it is the prolific Battle Brothers alliances which ruin my day. 

 

When you face a Cotaz with Centurion with Draigo (and this is a basic deathstar) you realize that unless you commit your entire army to deal with them you will loose. Problem is that is the rest of that army which destroys us since we are not capable to counter as many threats as a tournament list provides. I speak from a tournament point, rare is the casual game I play. 

[Scribe]

Have you tried Daemonkin Tenebris, or do you play exclusive CSM?

[Skallagoose]

There are a few chaos players at my club, and i have been slowly moving towards daemons/chaos (plan on building a tzeentch themed army eventually).

I echo the frustration that other chaos/loyalist armies are feeling right now. I recently played a proxy game of daemons v. Necrons- I was destroyed. My opponent was very good and experienced while i was playing a completely new army; but it was hard to overcome the buffs given by the different formations. I played wrong- exposing some units that i shouldn't have, but i also realized i didnt have anything that was reliable against high T or Armor.

 

yes, we have smash- but thats 1 attack at I1. that doesn't seem like a good counter.

 

We have a bunch of random strength spells too (generally d6+4[5 with locus]). 

I'm speaking from my own, limited, experience in which i just didnt have answers for certain things. This coming from Space Wolves where i felt like i had an answer to everything in some way shape or form. I'm very much a puzzle list builder where i try to think of an armies weaknesses and fill that gap- to which i have run into problems when facing armor 11+.

 

My bias is also sneaking through in that i am very disheartened in the eldar codex being super powerful. For those people who don't see it- their bikes can have 6 S6 ap4 shots EACH (scatter lasers). At a certain point i feel like "Why bother" to going to play.

[Tenebris]

Have you tried Daemonkin Tenebris, or do you play exclusive CSM?

 

I see the Daemonkin as simply as a death sentence to Chaos. By the time the main book will be in the works most of the players will be frustrated to no end so they wont bother. If the Daemonkin would have new rules and not just a rearrangement of the old 2012 ones, I would play it, alas this is not the case so I don't play it. As it is it looks like a fun but far from competitive book. As I have said, a prolonged agony for our faction. Sincerely I hold no hope for the Tzeentch Daemonkin either. You cannot make Thousand Sons shine nor you can make Tzeentch competitive unless you spam summons or Screamers. Hence I categorically refuse to play the Daemonkin. 

 

By exclusively CSM I believe you meant the true CSM, the CSM which actually had some connotation with the Horus Heresy, the CSM who actually are the true Chaos Space Marines, the heirs to the galaxy, the scions of the Dark Gods, the crusaders of the only true faith and truth. I think the "exclusively CSM" as THAT CSM.

 

I play solely them. I play Black Legion too but because it is Black Legion, a traitor legion, and not something completely alien to the Chaos lore. Alien at the current, I fear it will become the basis for our lore in the future. 

 

By that yes, I play exclusively CSM. That is why I loose, that and because I refuse to grind one more year of Plague Marines, Obliterators and Spawn spam. I hated that in the 4th, I hate it now. 

[Scribe]

I find myself in the odd place of arguing for Chaos as a play faction, instead of just fluff...normally its you folks doing that to me. :p

 

1. I agree that Daemonkin are indicative of the potential that the CSM mainstay units are not getting any real buffs. This is unfortunate as I believe it indicates the mainline CSM box is not getting updated any time soon. There will be no new guns to save the day.

 

2. In line with item 1, perhaps Chosen and Havocs, not found in Daemonkin, get a box.

 

3. If you expect mainline CSM to win the day, you need to look out at what the rest of the MEQ statlines are doing, and honestly, its not winning. What list is winning with troops that are not elites forced into a troops slot somehow?

 

In the other thread (and I have to admit watching mod's threaten to lock out threads over mod posts...excites me as a Khorne player) you mention how Imperial's get all these other options, so saddly, we must accept that we have to use our options.

 

Daemons win tournaments. I know this, I've done it. Belakor wins games. Daemonkin has some VERY solid units, and the mechanics are surprising to those who havent played with them. 

 

We have Lords of War, and frankly for some things we need to use them.

 

CSM, Daemons, Daemonkin, Crimson Slaughter, FW units, there is a lot of potential for some nasty things here. Is it as good as Imperial's get? No, and why? Because GW has no problem making :cuss OP, and no problem with releasing a lot of content quickly.

 

We dont get as much of that pie, but that doesnt mean we cannot at least play with other armies, but we cannot expect to win with just our troop CSM's holding the line, they arent good enough, but neither are Tactical Marines.

[Trevak Dal]

If I'm against Just Space Marines-I'm usually outnumbered, but as R'tas Vadumee (Half-Jaw/The Shipmaster) says in Halo 3 "Then it is a fair fight,"

 

Throw in Knights, Guard Allies, Wraith Knights and Wraith Lords, multiple Complementary chapters...and I can kinda hear Mad World playing in the background as I set my guys out on the table.

 

It frustrates me that marking Ctacs is less useful than taking an extra combat weapon.  I got wrecked by a tournament list using Centurion-star the other day, the only time I felt so Outclassed was against Eldar Monstrous Creatures (now with one gargantuan creature).

 

I could ally in Tau, but that goes in the face of playing "Chaos SPace Marines".  I've enjoyed Daemonkin because it's somewhat the kind of army I wanted my CSMs to be originally-close combat oriented, focused around Berzerkers assaulting stuff-though the lack of Khârn makes me sad in the face (but is easily remedied with allies and gets me Obliterators on top of being able to field all my Helbrutes and Maulerfiends and Landraiders for each unit of Berzerkers)

 

Its basically the army for all the misfit stuff in my Chaos collection.  My Black Legion are staunch professionals led by Alphonse and Giselburtus-they all have differing beliefs, but Alphonse keeps them all heading down in the right direction (towards the Warmaster's vision).

 

The Daemonkin are led by the Brass Apostle-a Daemon Prince who used to be a Word Bearer Dark Apostle who was excommunicated for favoring Khorne too much (he took offense to that notion and found their lack of dedication to Khorne weak and worthy of a zealous purging)

[Scribe]

Yeah thats what I was thinking on this afternoon. In what would should straight up CSM do anything ever? It hasnt been that way since before 3.5. Troops are there to be a tax, thats it. Even if we get something to boost CSM to the top, it wont be a buff to the Chaos Space Marine. His MEQ statline has defined him, and I doubt we are getting any guns to make it worthwhile, and even if we DID, then hes just a gun, its not the marine holding it doing anything.

 

I dont know, I'm pretty over competitive 40K, and firmly in the 'chuck dice' camp at this point.

[Ammonius]

On the original topic: 

I too went through a phase where I didn't know how I wanted to model my warband to align with the rules, or how I wanted to paint them. I wound up taking the DIY route with the Deprecators, and specifically wrote myself a rule that the Deprecator fleet had a couple of different ships and several Lord-level personalities who had slightly different followings, which let me do Noise Marines and Plague Marines in the ol' Grey White and Orange without too much heartburn. Thus, I recommend making your own DIY warband so that no matter what GW does to your guys, they're still your guys.

 

On the thread from post #29 to here:

Man, Oh Man, do I get what you are feeling Brother Tenebris. I too did my time losing games because of the book I chose to pick an army from. For longer than I want to quantify, the only times I had a chance to do more than put my guys on the table, and then return them bit by bit to their foam trays was when I played the other Chaos guy. Here is what I did when I felt the way I think you do today: I put all of my Chaos models on the shelf. I put all the WIP in boxes, and put those on the shelf. I'm not selling them, and someday, I think that I'll have cause to field my warband again.

 

I just have no faith that that time will be any time soon. None.

 

I dropped flags, set aside my Deprecators that I had worked so hard on (see above) and went on a vision quest through my bits and parts boxes. What I saw was that I could make a force that owed its allegiance to no one but itself, and my Alpha Legion project was born. I'm not saying that what I did would be right for you, but I just wanted to say something.

[Prot]

 

 

I do find frustration in trying to make units work over and over again that just need tweaking so badly. But this comes from playing a lot. I do find a lot of chaos players that -stay- chaos don't really play... or all that often. (Not all, but many are like this.)

 

I'm usually facing something fairly potent.. not Draigo-Cent/Gate, but still, some fairly potent stuff. So this can be where you truly feel the age of your army. I have't played Deathguard in several editions so I've been stuck a bit there. 

 

 

 

I agree with the statement above. As a Chaos moderator I am to be the one saying that all is good and that we will see better times, but that role is increasingly difficult since I play regular games every month and I have lost every single one since December past year. Why? Because I refuse to give in and use loyalist units like the Imperial Knight or to make my CSM just a token force among Daemons or Renegade Guard. I always go against quite hardcore lists and I have yet to win a game against the Eldar, the new Necrons and the many Centurion/Draigo stars which are a bane of my existence on tabletop. It is very hard to stay positive and true to our faction with my record of defeats, a record which is increasing since the advent of the Eldar and Centurions. 

 

I say stay true to Chaos and I mean it, but I feel betrayed by GW every time I put my CSM models on the board. Actually it happens so that I am finding excuses to not play since I know that I have zero chance against the current tournament level lists in my area, and I play in a very tournament heavy environment. It is a pity, for I love Chaos and I love competitive gameplay. I adore a challenge but I am frustrated when I remove entire units by turn three. 

 

Long story short I feel that I must have faith in my faction and I advise you all to have it but I am not blind to what is happening on tabletop, we are loosing badly and it seems that this will not end until we get a proper CSM codex. Said that I refuse to buckle and go the loyalist route. As have said time and again, Battle Brothers alliances could save the pity of our codex but it is not to be so. 

 

 

First off, I think you know this, but my post was in no way meant to be negative. But with the majority believing that Chaos isn't getting anything for over the next... 12 months. That honestly never entered my  mind. When I did look at it that way, I just cringed. I thought, 'no way'. There's no way they'd leave it that long after all these bad codexes going to Gav-dex and beyond...

 

For me, I still compare this CSM dex to the Necrons. A LOT of high potential units that were just poo. Then the new Necrons come out, with really only 1 new model! It's not even a squad... it's a Lord that's basically from the Mephrit Detachment. BUT the amazing fleshing out of so many units made the codex highly usable in most pages in the book. I was thrilled with it. (Not the Decurion, I mean the Necron purist in me).

 

I foresee the same for Chaos. So what is the delay? I believe they want to make it bigger than Necrons. Necrons are good, fine, but they are a stand alone. I see plans for supplements, and considerations for existing supplements, and a bigger release with campaign possibilities.

 

But more back to the point, thankfully Tenebris in you I see someone else that plays a lot in at least a semi-competitive environment. Too many players pick up chaos with the same background of playing a lot, and they're gone in 6 months. Or they don't play... they just 'math-hammer' what they 'would do if they played'.

 

Like you said, try facing the nasties out there on a weekly basis. Being a hardcore CSM stylist, I admit my Niche puts me at a disadvantage. I don't really ally. I don't even use Belakor or even Daemons.

 

I have played every formation many times (except Khârn's) and I still love the Crimson Slaughter, and all the work I've put into it. But man it does wear you down. You know some days I just swore access to bloody Drop Pods would change everything for me.... anyway.... The idea of waiting over a year is just nasty.

 

 

 

Tailored lists... this is a thing that sadly I cannot do for much of my games are in tournament and campaigns. I am happy that many of you score relevant wins but I know that there is nothing wrong with my tactics, I am a long term player and tournament goer, but I am aware that I cannot stand up to the horrors we see on nowadays tables. The horrors I speak are the Necron Decurion, the Centurion-Stars, the Draigo-bombs, Eldar in all shapes and forms and in general terms all the updated books. It is not the single armies per se which are our anathema, it is the prolific Battle Brothers alliances which ruin my day. 

 

When you face a Cotaz with Centurion with Draigo (and this is a basic deathstar) you realize that unless you commit your entire army to deal with them you will loose. Problem is that is the rest of that army which destroys us since we are not capable to counter as many threats as a tournament list provides. I speak from a tournament point, rare is the casual game I play. 

 

I don't tailor either... I just don't play that way, and most often don't know who I'm playing before hand and I prefer it that way.

 

Last edition I got sick of seeing 'Rotten Croissant' lists as I called them.... Deathguard Zombies and half a dozen Night Scythes.  I know GW makes the allies rule to get around inferior codex building and selling more models. But I do think the current race of releases makes me feel they've taken on a new approach with codexes that is distinctly different from yesteryear. The formations are huge now. All marine based armies are taking up the rear overall to xenos. I think they're going to see a very big boost when they do get done. But Chaos? Who knows. I don't even understand the current design. To me releasing Formations or Dataslates is such an easy (if temporary) fix.... but nope.

 

The way I look at it, I'm the sucker right now with tons of Warp Talons, and Defilers and Mutilators! Now will I be laughing in 6 months? Or crying? lol

 

But as an aside, I skipped the Knight release last time around. this time I've pre-ordered a Warden. So THIS alone could up my game and bring an element to my CS that just is... non-existent right now, but I'm not sure if it feels right. (I also have a Sicaran tank, and a Fire Raptor I've never used with Chaos.) So yea, I guess you could say I'm finally looking outside the codex for parity.

[Warsmith Aznable]

But what is "tailoring" anyway? Fluff wise no sane commander would refuse to consider the situation they were going into and create an appropriate battle plan, including specialist teams chosen to exploit estimated enemy weaknesses and expected terrain.

[Scribe]

Tailoring is talking to your buddy, and him saying 'yeah lets play tomorrow, I'll bring X' so you then run home and build a list that kills X extra hard.

 

Its not very sporting.

[Lucio]

Tailoring is talking to your buddy, and him saying 'yeah lets play tomorrow, I'll bring X' so you then run home and build a list that kills X extra hard.

 

Its not very sporting.

See when I say tailoring a list I mean making sure something in the army can cope with X, whilst dealing with Y and Z also. In our local group, we all talk about our lists before the games, suggest tweaks to each other and tactics to use. If we do get a one sided game, next week the loser will often come back with a different approach to try and counter it.

 

For example, Player A goes "I'd like to bring my flyer and superheavy tank". Player B makes sure they have some anti-air cover and some anti-tank weapons or, if they have nothing suitable, asks Player A to leave out the element

 

So yeah, I can see why sometimes a tailored list can be seen as bad sportsmanship but if you've got a good group of players, it's also a natural thing to do.

[Prot]

By all means if you like tailoring lists, go for it. It's everyone's hobby, not just mine. lol

 

Specifically we like to play to a tournament standard so it's using very few 'house rules' (the only one I can actually think of is Maelstrom objectives that are completely impossible at the beginning of a game to fulfill). This includes not knowing what you're facing list, or armywise. This forces a strong sense of listbuilding imo. You can't stack your deck with anything that isn't usable in an all comers scenario. This is essentially what you're faced with in a tournament.

 

As a side note, when we're playing pick up games we always roll off for opponents so it's impossible to know what you're playing against before hand. There is the odd case though where someone utterly dominates someone else with a good list, or great play, so there's always the chance of calling for a rematch.

 

Unfortunately I find a lot of (tournament) chaos is simply not like this.... I mean a lot of the units you see in a 'typical' chaos tournament list are really just a stacking of the same old 3-4 pages of the codex. That being said there's always someone out there building outside of conventional wisdom that does quite well. I really enjoy those types of players most often.

 

The best thing I think CSM brings to longevity in playing them is the wide array of units in the codex. Unfortunately some started out as 'bad' in this edition and have continually slipped as better and better started coming out. (I really thought formations would fix this, but I was wrong).

 

(An example would be... Warp Talons. Or perhaps the Defiler. Or Cult Troops. (aside from Plague marines?))

 

So when looking at ETL, for me there's really only 3 ways to have used it to motivate myself for chaos:

1. Start a new Warband/Legion. (obviously a hobby decision)

2. Since I have -most- of what I need for a game to game army, it would be duplication: Another Maulerfiend, another Heldrake, more bikes. etc.

3. Pure hobby motivation: From the Warp Planet of "Sitting on a Shelf For Eternity" I have: Warp Talons, Mutilators, Dark Apostle, Defiler, Vindicator, Landraiders. etc.

 

I think I was actually going to give it a whirl until I really sat down and pondered what another full calendar year of no new codex/supplments/formations would feel like.

[the jeske]

Play msu tenebris. aside for a invisi deathstar, it is probably the only way to play chaos. And out of the 2 it is probably the less boring/skew

[Warsmith Aznable]

Tailoring is talking to your buddy, and him saying 'yeah lets play tomorrow, I'll bring X' so you then run home and build a list that kills X extra hard.

 

Its not very sporting.

So let's say my friend tells me he's going to play his Imperial Knight household with some IG armour for allies. If I bring an "all comers" list then I'm the one getting flattened in a one sided route, but if I load up on heavy weapons then I'm list tailoring and therefore unsportsmanlike?

 

Or if my friend says he's going bring a Green Tide I'm some kind of a jerk if I put flamers in my CSM squads and take heavy bolters on my Havocs instead of the usual melta guns, because that's not something I would normally do?

 

I'm honestly not seeing what the problem is.

[Scribe]

Yeah Aznable, to me thats tailoring. I dont really care if its how you roll, or your group rolls, but I bring the same lists regardless of opponent, as thats reflective of a tournament style.

 

I'm not saying your a jerk for doing it, only that i dont, and yes metagaming for a single game/opponents list just seems to cheapen it all.

 

Your greentide example is perfect. Of course your going to clean up if you load up on flamers, so whats the point?

[Warsmith Aznable]

Yeah Aznable, to me thats tailoring.... whats the point?

For your tournament style pick up games it makes sense, but for the one off prearranged games I play it seems pointlessly stubborn.

[Scribe]

Going to have to admit I cant even put myself into that head space. I'd never build a list/army to a specific opponents list.

[Warsmith Aznable]

Going to have to admit I cant even put myself into that head space. I'd never build a list/army to a specific opponents list.

Not by an exact list, just a general idea of what's coming. I would not sit down with an opponent's list and come up with an answer for each specific thing on it, but I do like to know what army I'm going against and if they're going to be playing anything out of the ordinary like superheavies or the like. Not with the idea of shutting them down before the game even starts, but so the match up makes sense and is equally threatening to both players.

[Scribe]

Yeah thats not the same thing as your green tide example.

 

"I'm bringing Green Tide, get ready!" "OK cool, welcome to Flamer and Template hell!" Is to me (and I stress here this is my own hang up) list tailoring to gain an advantage over your opponent..

 

"I'm going to bring Orks, 1750, no LoW, no flier?" "OK sounds good I can stick with that framework" A completely different thing.