ETL and new codex considerations....

[Warsmith Aznable]

Yeah thats not the same thing as your green tide example.

 

"I'm bringing Green Tide, get ready!" "OK cool, welcome to Flamer and Template hell!" Is to me (and I stress here this is my own hang up) list tailoring to gain an advantage over your opponent..

 

"I'm going to bring Orks, 1750, no LoW, no flier?" "OK sounds good I can stick with that framework" A completely different thing.

I don't see it as very different. Green Tide creates an advantage in bodies, while bringing a few flamers and a couple of heavy bolters brings the balance back. It's like the couple dozen Tau gunline vs Khorne Berserker games I've played. Can you shoot enough of my guys that you will survive the oncoming axe party? Let's find out... The game is still about using deployment, terrain, and maneuver to achieve victory. Just like all the games where I knew in advance that the Deathwing or the Grey Knights were bringing all the TDA they could find to the big game, so I handed out all the melta and plasma I could get my hands on. Still no guarantee of victory for either side, and tactical maneuver and timing is wicked important. Just like any game should be. That's a lot more fun to me than, "oh man, you came TDA heavy and I have nothing that mathematically matters," and the game consists of three or four turns of picking up model after model every time the other guy rolls the dice and you can't do anything about it.

[Scribe]

I play almost exclusively for tournaments, where you dont have the luxury of doing what you describe, so perhaps thats the difference in my mind.

 

If I could design my list with knowledge of what I was facing to the degree you are outlining...I cant imagine losing very often. :/

[Forté]

Back on topic please.

 

List tailoring to specific opponents wasn't part of the OPs questions or concerns. Plus it is something people feel strongly about.

 

Thank you.

[Rain]

Well it's not like they will retcon Crimson Slaughter out of existence or anything. Even if we do get a new Chaos Space Marine codex (which I doubt for at least another 18 months) they have never actually written anyone out. Who cares who are are or not the posterboys, nobody really gets unique rules other than the tepid supplements (so I guess you're worried about losing that?) but Red Corsairs have never had rules period, so I'm not sure how them no longer putting Corsair painted models on the biker and terminator boxes matters.

 

As for the point about actually gaming, yeah, gaming with Chaos Space Marines is rather soulcrushing, not only because it's not a very good army (ceteris paribus, obviously a superlative player can still beat a mediocre flavor of the month guy with a Decurion--maybe) but also because it is so bad at representing the fluff, and GW doesn't seem to understand or care why Chaos players play Chaos. Though I guess there are some exceptions, most Chaos Marine players aren't in it for the whacky demon engines and tentacles and random tables to roll on, but the idea of bitter and jaded veterans of a thousand wars, trying to tear down all that they once protected. Basically the theme of Chaos back in 3.5.

 

I remember reading I think it was a White Dwarf article by Pete Haines back in the day. that described Chaos Marines as the Hannibal Lecters of 40k, they are smarter, stronger, and far more experienced than the "good guys", it's just that they are also insane. Not the loony Saturday Morning Cartoon insane that they are presented as now, but a kind of mania born of self-loathing that drives them to inevitable self destruction. Now that was a compelling them for an army.

 

This is probably best represented by a relatively low model count army that trades technology like Land Speeders, Sternguard special ammo, LR variants, etc. for better statlines and very customizable and potentially powerful heroes to represent ancient champions with more battle experience than 10 Dantes. In other words, the Fantasy Battles Chaos army, but in power armor. Instead we are just "kinda like Space Marines, but less options and without ATSKNF or machine spirit on Land Raiders". Thanks Gee Dub.

[Prot]

Well it's not like they will retcon Crimson Slaughter out of existence or anything. Even if we do get a new Chaos Space Marine codex (which I doubt for at least another 18 months) they have never actually written anyone out. Who cares who are are or not the posterboys, nobody really gets unique rules other than the tepid supplements (so I guess you're worried about losing that?) but Red Corsairs have never had rules period, so I'm not sure how them no longer putting Corsair painted models on the biker and terminator boxes matters.

 

 

No, I don't think they will be written out of existence, but if they're a thumbnail on page 127, they might as well be. I'm not sure where the confusion is about this.... to me there is a difference in my motivation of playing a Chapter/Legion that has a 'presence' in the fluff, background, fiction, formations, characters, etc, etc, etc, versus no presence other than a paint scheme thumbnail. That's just me... I accept some people really don't care. They see the rules as a tool to winning, nothing more or less is required of their army.

 

Huron had cool short stories, was featured in other novels, so did the Red Corsairs of course, They had formations and as a special character was rather cool... But rather than beleaguer the point... moving on....

 

 

As for the point about actually gaming, yeah, gaming with Chaos Space Marines is rather soulcrushing, Though I guess there are some exceptions, most Chaos Marine players aren't in it for the whacky demon engines and tentacles and random tables to roll on, but the idea of bitter and jaded veterans of a thousand wars, trying to tear down all that they once protected. Basically the theme of Chaos back in 3.5.

 

I remember reading I think it was a White Dwarf article by Pete Haines back in the day. that described Chaos Marines as the Hannibal Lecters of 40k, they are smarter, stronger, and far more experienced than the "good guys", it's just that they are also insane. Not the loony Saturday Morning Cartoon insane that they are presented as now, but a kind of mania born of self-loathing that drives them to inevitable self destruction. Now that was a compelling them for an army.

This is probably best represented by a relatively low model count army that trades technology like Land Speeders, Sternguard special ammo, LR variants, etc. for better statlines and very customizable and potentially powerful heroes to represent ancient champions with more battle experience than 10 Dantes. In other words, the Fantasy Battles Chaos army, but in power armor. Instead we are just "kinda like Space Marines, but less options and without ATSKNF or machine spirit on Land Raiders". Thanks Gee Dub.

 

 

I totally agree. I certainly miss those days, and NOT because you could field 3 defilers, 9 oblits, and an LT in 1500 pts. It was a true CSM book. No reliance on Space Hippies if you didn't want them. I have boxes of Spawns... unopened. I just can't do it... .maybe one day.

 

But I totally agree Pete Haines did a very good job as portraying the chaos marine as a tortured soul, but very capable of rending the imperium if given the chance. This CSM is a goofy, disheveled employee of the Daemon. It does not remind me of the super soldiers that I used to know.  Maybe "Iron Warriors" representatives are the only ones who can mimic that environment (typically by using Knights, or putting in Relic tanks/flyers, etc.)

 

And not to open a wound here, but I have a strong feeling the CSM 'gap' will widen just that much more when the new Codex Astartes appears. So the thought of waiting another 18 months is just crazy considering the current releases.

 

I said it before, Chaos is VERY similar to necrons. They were down to 1-2 decent builds, usually allying in croissant wing with zombies.... BUT they had access to a lot of FUN units with potential. The new codex is a perfect example of what could happen to chaos.... Lots of deeply interesting units that were 'brought up' to a very good standard (even without the Decurion). And really the only new models the Codex got was an Overlord!

 

But yet they probably increased their sales of units like Lychguard and Tomb Blades (For a small example) by a massive amount. Chaos is in the same boat and has a lot of cool models that just aren't on the radar for most people. GW could easily put them back on the grid with a decent codex, and enjoy increased sales from those duds.

 

I love the background. I love the actual CSM models over all. Heck even the Helbrute kit is a great upgrade. I even love the Fiend kits... so fun to paint... I've painted 2 Forgefiends (sold) and have 2 more in boxes.... I can't even force myself to put them together right now. There's SO much potential in those models and units, it's a complete shame to think of waiting a year for an update.

[Rain]

Perhaps, but GW's rules writing department is--inconsistent to say the least. There are however some patterns, for example Eldar and Necron codices are always very strong (at least when they launch), and Tyranids, Orks, and Chaos tend to be mediocre to bad, even at launch. Excepting maybe 5th edition nob biker with painboy wound allocation shenanigans, which I always considered more of an exploit than an intended strenght of the unit.

At the core of it, I honestly just think that either the writers themselves, or the upper managers that are telling the writers what to do are incompetent. I work for a pretty big and successful corporation myself, and it's often funny to me when people rationalize *all* of GW's actions, totally forgetting that some things are done because that one idiot had an idea at a meeting that some other idiot happened to agree with, and nobody else really cared because it's just a day job.

This is especially true when the corporate officers, managers (and I guess directors though that doesn't matter as much) don't actually use the products that the firm makes, and therefore don't really understand what aspects of the products drive demand. Instead, good firms use proper market research; bad firms just use "general business wisdom" in this case from the toy industry. Currently the strategy for GW seems to be "raise prices and push large high margin models" which is basically the business equivalent of adding more bandaids to a gunshot wound.

 

In the long run, they need a replenishing core of players who are really into the game to be regularly buying $100+ models, and that's not as likely to happen if they don't make inter and intra-faction game balance a priority. Unfortunately they see themselves as a toy company and Hasbro doesn't balance the Darth Vader figures versus the Boba Fett ones. In other words, they are incompetent for the job they are doing, and therefore predicting their actions as just figuring out what rational behaivor on their part would look like is kind of moot in my opinion.

 

As a counterpoint, Forge World does this quite a bit better, although one can argue that the 30k armies are easier to balance because they are more homogenous. Still, no legion has scatterbikes or armywide Feel-No-Pain-but-better. Also, on the topic of FW, they still do fluff aimed at adult players, and not the bombastic fanfic we have been moving toward in codices, though I guess that's my subjective opinion.

 

Edited from original phone post for readability, completeness, and sanity.

[Prot]

I agree, and am a part of nearly weekly episodes of watching someone in a meeting try to push the most stupid ideas on earth. It's painful, and reinforces how disconnected management is sometimes.... and I'm sure GW isn't immune to it.

 

BUT that being said, I think there's another factor. When you have the right dude championing your codex it's always a good thing. That's why we haven't had anything great since Pete got a severance package of a garage full of Rhino models they couldn't sell. 

 

The right person likes Crimson Slaughter? I'll be okay... it's a HUGE gamble but I really spent a lot of time on those figs. Like I said it's the only non-founding legion I truly like. (Actually that's not true, I dig Huron truly. And his persona written by Graham McNeil is -extremely- similar to ADB's take on the 'new' Abaddon.)

 

I think the boardroom is missing the boat here. Chaos is our Darth Vader and "Luke" has been running around free willy. It's time for Vader to get his teeth back and make this whole Loyalist vs CSM thing relevant again. 

 

I keep using Necrons as the example because I play them, and I think they are far less popular than Chaos. I don't play the Decurion (I stopped playing it til new-dar start hitting the tables) and even so, the new codex has so many interesting elements, it is a ton of fun to play.

 

We just need the right champion of chaos behind the book. (and hopefully they don't make my Crimson Slaughter irrelevant!) 

[the jeske]

I totally agree. I certainly miss those days, and NOT because you could field 3 defilers, 9 oblits, and an LT in 1500 pts

 

 

Dont lie. everyone took 2 defilers, 1 basilisk and 1 vindicator on top of 9 oblits for point efficiency and the speed dread ax DP for counters. alongside 2 rhinos[for sniping[ and las minimax[to do the sniping along side oblits].

 

 

Prot it is not question of design being bad[well not just that, Gav was/is/will be a horrible designer on pair with JJ], but the fact that no other faction in w40k can be done well without formations/decurion style stuff. I don't know if people remember me talking about tier lists[more or less what formations are] years ago. Chaos should have been the first faction to get it. Als the model range was not ready for it, and some people along  the way of the decision process real do think that FtN is a thing and that w40k fans are hobbiest/collectors and rules don't matter[as they can be done on the fly].

 

But if we are lucky we will get a csm book [aka "reneged chaos csm book"], a cult/legion supplement[aka "the formations that should have been in the main book"], and kin books[aka "why did you remove demons from my csm book, if your doing this, in the first place".

[Skallagoose]

Warhammer Fantasy just had chaos literally tear apart the world. Warhammer 40k chaos is sitting in the eye of terror just watching and waiting. Maybe its time for chaos to come from the ashes and destroy the material universe. Especially now that the lists are built around decurion style detachments (we need to come up with a better name for it- something like battalion build or something- but then it sounds imperial guard). It sounds, from the rumors section, like each chapter in SM is getting their own build. I would only expect chaos to get the same thing. A fluff driven force that adds a lot of protection. It would encourage people to buy one or two 'weaker' units for their force- like the daemonkin possessed marines. a win-win for everyone. Chaos players are happier with a stronger book- they buy more models- GW makes more money- gives more support to chaos- more people start chaos armies.