Rommel44 Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 Hey mates. Currently at my gaming store, there is a huge tournament going on and surprisingly enough, I discovered that there was someone playing Militarum Tempestus army utilizing the air assault formation with two Knights supporting. I watched most of his games, and from what I have seen he actually did pretty well but I believe that was more due to his unique formation as not many people brought anti-air, and even then he had a hard time against the top tier armies. during a break, me and him discussed the challenges that the Militarum Tempestus army face currently and that got me thinking on what GWshould do in order to make them more of a competitive force. Granted I don't expect it to happen anytime soon, but from the way I look at it there really isn't a lot they need to do in order to make them a bit more competitive especially in this current meta. For starters: * Scions need to drop down to 10 points per model base. * Taurox Prime needs a major points drop, around 55 points base and cheaper points on the upgrade weapons OR stays the same point value but gets a lot tougher to kill. Here is one quick thing they could do to make the Tempestous more competitive and honestly I'm surprised they haven't already FAQ it. Currently all their stuff is overpriced for what you get and if they were to go this route this alone would make a big difference as we could utilize more if entry as well as vehicles. The Trauox Prime is extremely over cost of what you get for it, as with the missile launcher upgrade it goes over a hundred points which isn't worth it for 11 11 10 transport despite the firepower it can get. Making it cheaper or giving it better armor or survivability alone would be a big help. * Access to the Vendetta Gunship. This should be a no brainer. Since it has been already confirmed that they can take forge world fliers with the same rules and cost as the Astra Militarum. Makes no sense at all why they shouldn't have access to a Vendetta. This alone would address their anti-tank issue. * Take an Inquisitor as an HQ. I only mention this because in a lot of fluff, an Inquisitor usually has a bunch of Stormtroopers accompanying him on various missions and I think it would make sense if you could take an Inquisitor here as yourHQ. This would also give this codex a psyker option. * New Formations Currently, the formations they have access to are only really meant as an attachment and nothing else. I could see the possibility of adding a few other formations that are specifically for the Militarum Tempestus codex. This is what I can only think about the moment at a first glance. But if anyone else has any other suggestions or ideas on how they could become more competitive feel free to share and if you have your own opinions on the current Codex as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307076-how-to-make-the-militarum-tempestus-more-competitive/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kontakt Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 When compared to other T3 4+ save armies (like skitarii) they are overcosted. It would seem the primary use for them is as allies, arriving on turn 2 in a formation. This combined with a knight or 2 is what works for me. Regardless, If they were not arriving from reserves, They would not have the staying power due to overcosting. The best solution I can think of is bringing an aegis defence line with the coms array, to get valkyries or deep strikers in, and cammo netting for the primes. Shoving the knights down their throat really takes the pressure off, but the short range of scions means we can't leave them back. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307076-how-to-make-the-militarum-tempestus-more-competitive/#findComment-4029281 Share on other sites More sharing options...
captain sox Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 If this was 1500 point games, are 2 Knights alone not enough to win? Anyway, the thing with the Scions is that they can't be run like Marines. Each squad needs a purpose, and points need to be spared where they can be. The key is to focus on one enemy unit, and kill it as fast as possible. Bully where you can. Make all your units 10 man. AP 3 standard weapons are golden. Forget the Valks, they really serve no purpose (IMHO) since these guys can deep strike anyway. Use your Taurox and Arrays to bring units where you need them... and bring lots of units. This is my opinion, and take it for what it's worth :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307076-how-to-make-the-militarum-tempestus-more-competitive/#findComment-4029312 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 I've merged your posts for you :) I think I agree with your sentiments, save for the Inquisitor one as they're always available through the Inquisition codex. Scions could do with a points drop and I think the Taurox Price is too expensive for what you get. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307076-how-to-make-the-militarum-tempestus-more-competitive/#findComment-4029454 Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 Although I agree that changes are needed to make the codex more viable on a stand-alone basis, I disagree with several points raised as suggested changes: 1. Inquisitors: Stormtroopers are no more or less associated with the inquisition than are sisters of battle, the temporary madness of the "codex: witch hunters" era be damned. Inquisitors have more or less equal access (perhaps slightly less so in the case of space marines) to all armed forces of the imperium, including PDF, arbites, guard, navy, etc. It is right and fitting that Inquisitors have their own separate codex that allows you to include them in ANY imperial force, as this does a good job of representing their ability to pick the best tool for the job at hand. /edit/ It also allows them to go off the rails and consort with xenos... 2. Vendettas: Vendettas are not transports, they are heavy tank hunters, and your proposal makes as much sense from a fluff perspective as giving them leman russes. Now, game-wise, yeah, the ability to fit troops choices inside them (which is a problem for IG!) would be fantastic, and it would certainly go a long way towards solving their problems with high-strength long range shooting...but if a vendetta costs as much as a demolisher in the context of the IG codex, where there are other long-range high-strength low-AP shooting options and where the 6-man passenger capacity is all but un-useable, you would have to price it closer to a land raider for stormtroopers precisely because it provides a glaringly absent capability and is actually useful as a transport. Stormtroopers are supposed to be light, fast, and elite, focused on infantry tactics, not vehicle-based firepower. Vendettas fly completely in the face of that, and would let you have your cake and eat it, too. I would support a points drop for both stormtroopers and tauroxes. Actually, I'd like the valk to be about 20 points cheaper, with the upgrade to rocket pods getting a ten point hike to offset some of that. I think the two formations would be just fine as-is, no new ones needed, if they simply qualified as combined arms detachments with the troops choices gaining objective secured, and the transports becoming dedicated transports. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307076-how-to-make-the-militarum-tempestus-more-competitive/#findComment-4029907 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altasmurf Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 The problem, yet what is also unique, about the tempestus is their lack of support and how they use what they have to get the job done. As others have stated the way inquisitors work does the job. And well a vendetta would be nice it seems like forge world has aircraft covered. As for point costs the tempestus aren't that out to lunch, think of it this way Vet 6 Carapace 1.5 Move through cover 0.5 Deepstrike 1 That 9 points so really 2 points for hellgun puts them at 11. They're really only a point to much. What I'd rather see to keep the elite feel is cut the Sgt. tax so they start at 60 points a squad and increase their leadership by a point. As for prime 55 is way to low, that's razor back territory. The price could probably drop by about 10 points, even that might be to much maybe only 5 points. Then each weapon upgrade halved. But then I don't think you'd ever see the base battle cannon model. What they need is a few options like advisors, primarius psykers, a few relics, and allow their commanders to give 2 orders. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307076-how-to-make-the-militarum-tempestus-more-competitive/#findComment-4030585 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodemus Doloroso Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 The thing is most of these improvements are easily available via allies. Bring an AM allied detachment of CCS with advisors, a veteran squad, and Vendettas. Vet squad is a fairly minimal tax. Make them grenadiers and mod their hotshots to make them lasguns and you've got some Scions-lite. Bring an inquisitor solo as part of an =][= detachment. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307076-how-to-make-the-militarum-tempestus-more-competitive/#findComment-4031007 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulrik_Ironfist Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 I would like to see the points go down a bit, the Taurox prime can get expensive, and I feel that 80 points base is over costed for a 11 10 10 vehicle. It needs an extra point of armor on the side, to get it to last. I get that it's a light fast vehicle, but come on, all a space marine has to do is sneeze at it and it dies. I'd at least like to see it invulnerable against bolters front and side. I'd like to see scions come down to 10-11 points a model instead of 12, that practically puts them in space marine points, and Space marines are better for the points, as a bit of perspective, Blood Claws cost 60 points for a squad of 5 opposed to the Scions 70 for 5, and grey hunters are 70 points for 5 guys. All that is before upgrades. They could use a bit of a points reduction to keep them in line with the rest of the guard, If it weren't for the fact that I want to field an Imperial Guard army, I would't even use the scions, grey hunters are better and I have tons of them, they have a 1 better armor save, 1 better WS, and all the cool space marine rules. The MT codex needs some tweaking. Having the Vendetta wouldn't be against type though. When you consider the real world units that inspired the MT, having Vendettas makes sense. After all, something has to escort the Valkyrie into the combat zone and keep it safe while it drops it's troops. Since the bulk of the Codex is from the Elites in the AM codex, they need something else to help. Giving them the vendetta doesn't hurt their Infantry focus, it just gives them an extra option for getting to the fight. Granted, you could just take them in a full up AM list and be done with it ( I have gained the ability to do that). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307076-how-to-make-the-militarum-tempestus-more-competitive/#findComment-4031132 Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 Real world? I'd say US Army rangers...and they don't have Apaches...so...as for escorting valks, that's not a job for vendettas, that's a job for thunderbolts or lightnings. Characterizing the vendetta as a transport is a mistake. A merkava has a troop compartment, too, but it's a tank, not an APC! Same thing for the vendetta. It's a tank hunter, not a transport. I'm not arguing that it wouldn't be useful to the MT, of course it would. But it really does go against type, I think. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307076-how-to-make-the-militarum-tempestus-more-competitive/#findComment-4031288 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulrik_Ironfist Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 I was actually thinking more along the lines of the MH-60L Direct Action Penetrator (it has no troop capacity, but it's still an accurate comparison, if you consider all the crew; Pilot, Co-Pilot, Flight Engineer, 2 Door Gunners, and ammo, that eats up what little troop capacity the DAP had left). The 160th SOAR operates the DAP in the same capacity one would see the Apache being used. I don't believe it does go against type. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307076-how-to-make-the-militarum-tempestus-more-competitive/#findComment-4031549 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noserenda Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 They work best i think with minimal or no vehicles from the MT Codex, Suicide DS squads inflict a lot of damage and you can still field a lot of bodies if you stick to infantry.Tbh as an Imperial Army allies is also a big strength running either Knights or D-99 in support (Or Both) or for one funny tournament half a dozen assassins :D makes a huge difference. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307076-how-to-make-the-militarum-tempestus-more-competitive/#findComment-4032088 Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 I think the DAP is a pretty fair comparison in that a DAP is a repurposed Blackhawk and a Vendetta is a repurposed Valkyrie. Where I think it's a bit of a stretch is that there are only a handful of DAPs used very seldom in support of actual SOF. Vendettas are actually a standard version of the Valkyrie, not a limited-numbers special purpose modification. In that sense, the apache comparison does make sense, and it is apaches that would support rangers in any event, not DAPs. Anyway, balance is a bigger problem than fluff here. The vendetta's points cost in C:AM takes into account that you can't stuff meltavets inside any more, and it takes into account that there are other options for air defense and long range antitank. C:MT has a basic squad size that fits quite nicely inside a vendetta, which should push up the points cost in the interest of game balance, and C:MT currently lacks both credible air defense options and weapons that can threaten heavy armor from outside of 6" range. If you give them those new capabilities, you have to balance that somehow, either by taking something else away or raising the points cost of the overall army somewhere. I'm absolutely convinced that C:MT is underpowered, but giving vendettas to stormtroopers, especially at their current points cost, would be going a bit too far in boosting their playability. I think they're meant to be a fringe codex. As a stormtrooper player, I'm not thrilled by their handicaps, of course, but I think GW does that on purpose to allow variety in the metagame without making armies that are rare in the fluff (GK being another example) common on the tabletop. Actually, the allies system is great for that. It lets you field, for example, six grey knights in support of a guard list. That makes a lot more sense from a fluff perspective than 1850 points of grey knights. Well, the same is true of stormtroopers, they're just not common enough that you should see entire armies of them every Friday night. (In my case, they're not stormtroopers, they're kasrkin, so seeing them fielded in platoon strength as an independent force on a regular basis is less offensive to the fluff ) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307076-how-to-make-the-militarum-tempestus-more-competitive/#findComment-4032306 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodemus Doloroso Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 All good points, march10k, but as I pointed out, although the post in question seems to have been largely ignored, it is very easy to shore up the deficiencies noted and bring-in the stuff we want by adding a small allied Astra Militarum contingent. Give them all grenadiers doctrine or carapace and you can even use Scion models so they blend seamlessly in with the rest of the army. As a for instance: CCS w/ carapace, 3x plasma, Medic, Officer of the Fleet, Chimera (or Taurox if you want to keep vehicles consistent) - 217 or 202 Veterans w/ grenadiers doctrine, 3x meltagun, Chimera or Taurox - 170 or 155 Vendetta Squadron x2 - 340 TOTAL = 697 - 727 Which of course can be made cheaper if you like by giving the veterans only two special weapons to keep them consistent with the Scions, and my not maxing the CCS out on special weapons or giving them something cheaper than plasma. If you only feel the need for a single Vendetta, and a bit lighter on the upgrades (but still keeping carapace so you can use Scion models) you can be well under 400 points which is not bad for a Vendetta plus reserves manipulation, plus two more Tauroxes and 15 more carapace bodies to augment your Codex: Militarum Tempestus force. I might even do this myself since modelling a Vendetta beats the pants off of taking the Stormraven plus two Storm Talons formation which is the anti-air option par excellence (but not very fluffy unless your Scions are Inquisitorial Storm Troopers and a close-combat inquisitor with some crusaders and DCA are riding in the Raven painted up Inquisition style. Hmmm ..... ). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307076-how-to-make-the-militarum-tempestus-more-competitive/#findComment-4032386 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altasmurf Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 Nicodemus, you're right in the sense that you can just use the ally system to fill the gap. The flaw is that ally group has no synergy with the MT codecs except for the vendettas. The CCS can only order itself and the vets, and both troop transports can not keep up with the army. If you are going to use the guard as allies you might as well set it up as guard and not MT knockoff you get a lot more mileage out of you allies. I agree with March the MR are meant to hamstrung, that's the style of the army. Now in saying that, I do think there is some merit to point decreases, adding in a bit of specialist units/items (relic or 2, new advisors), buffing the scions a touch (I would rather they be a bit more elite, than have more bodies on the ground), and tweaking commissars so they have more of a reason to exist. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307076-how-to-make-the-militarum-tempestus-more-competitive/#findComment-4032429 Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 Oh, I can imagine a few other points of synergy between guard and stormtroopers...Guard provide the long range shooting that stormtroopers lack, as well as access to an officer of the fleet (only critical for air-mobile stormies). A hellhound with an augur array makes an excellent way to ensure that a deepstriking melta team lands within 6" of the target (so much the better if the target is a baneblade and the melta team is a tempestus command squad twinlinking itself...). There are certainly more combos out there... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307076-how-to-make-the-militarum-tempestus-more-competitive/#findComment-4033040 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodemus Doloroso Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 If you're doing air mobile the AM elements can be airborne too so that they keep up. And since they can't deep strike jumping out of Valkyries (Vendetta for CCS) benefits them more. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307076-how-to-make-the-militarum-tempestus-more-competitive/#findComment-4033099 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altasmurf Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 Yeah I agree astra militarium make a great ally. More what I was trying to say is that taking them as allies with Carapace just to get them to fit the tempestus style is a poor way to add to the army. If you are going to take an ally make sure the ally adds to the army not to try and mimic it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307076-how-to-make-the-militarum-tempestus-more-competitive/#findComment-4033275 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulrik_Ironfist Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 I'll be using my stormtroopers as part of a full AM CAD, I think the best reasons to use the mini-dex are the FA slot Taurox Primes, and the better orders. I'm still wrangling with how to use my scion platoon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307076-how-to-make-the-militarum-tempestus-more-competitive/#findComment-4033297 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodemus Doloroso Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 The more I think about it, the more I like a small AM contingent to get that OOF and Vendetta in an airborne formation. I might try it myself, although I confess I found the Valkyrie to be a rather tedious kit to assemble. But it looks great once done. Could make my Ordo Hereticus Strike Force I'm slowly building even tastier (right now its a mix of airborne and ground-borne with no formations in use). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307076-how-to-make-the-militarum-tempestus-more-competitive/#findComment-4033689 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 The Valk would be better if the instructions were worth the paper they're printed on :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307076-how-to-make-the-militarum-tempestus-more-competitive/#findComment-4033718 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulrik_Ironfist Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 Yeah, it is a bit of a pain... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307076-how-to-make-the-militarum-tempestus-more-competitive/#findComment-4034518 Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 I didn't have any problems with the instructions, just with the tediousness...especially after the first bird, when the novelty is gone! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307076-how-to-make-the-militarum-tempestus-more-competitive/#findComment-4039105 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodemus Doloroso Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 The instructions were not great but I still found it a very difficult and tedious model to assemble nevertheless. The Taurox is better so long as one doesn't make the fatal mistake of painting the interior (I did that for my first and have gotten bogged-down on said interior; I'm not going to bother with the next one). So I don't think the airborne formation is for me BUT, the Taurox Prime formation, with the AM contingent mounted in Valkyries/Vendettas has potential. The Taurox prime has really grown on me over time and I think it looks a lot better in person/on the table than in any pictures I've seen. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307076-how-to-make-the-militarum-tempestus-more-competitive/#findComment-4039738 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulrik_Ironfist Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 The Taurox Prime should have wheels. I have to admit it looks better that way. I wish the Valkyrie kit included the pieces to make the Vendetta. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307076-how-to-make-the-militarum-tempestus-more-competitive/#findComment-4040315 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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