I need some help - how to win with BA?

[nevaenuffbass]

Hey guys, 

 

I'm not new to the game, nor to blood angels, but I need help. I keep getting absolutely smashed with my blood angels. I have tried a few things, but not much seems to work. 

 

Most recently tried a jumper list with 2 units DC, a unit of sang guard and a few things in pods (inquisition allies, among others). I have also tried an army with lots of AV13 (well 3) and razorbacks. 

 

I have played against eldar (before latest dex), minotaurs (fw marines), space wolves and space marines, and am getting smashed. 

 

I will put a couple of sample lists below:

 

Sang priest, auspex, jump pack

10 sang guard, 3 inferno, 4 axes, 1 fist

2 x 10 Death Coy, 2 fists, jpacks

10 scouts, CCW (in raven)

Tac squad, flamer, heavy flamer, meltabombs, drop pod

Raven

2 x  henchmen squads with melta and an inquisitor in pods

 

Astorath

14 death company, Jpacks, power sword, power fist, thunderhammer

2 x "flamers" tac squads in pods

3 min assault squads in pods (2 melta, 1 plasma)

2 vindicators

1 dakka pred

 

[Remtek]

Vindies and pods dont mix well. Which of your units are making their points back in general? At first glance the SG unit seems like a liability. Is the Astorath unit working out? Thats a lot of points for one unit.

[Remtek]

Are you usually able to cripple enemy with pod alpha or does it feel lackluster?

[Xenith]

It would also be helpful to see the lists you are up against, whether they are fined tuned, take all comers, or friendly lists.

 

As you have a lot of stuff in pods, you have 3 units on the table T1, all very expensive. Consider having more stuff start on the board. I'd start the scouts on board (scouts in raven are pointless now as everything scores).

 

The same list has the second problem, you have a single infantry unit on the board thart your opponent can focus fire on. 

 

 

Neither of your lists has any long range shooting, although the suicide melta almost makes up for it. Still, your opponent pretty much has free reign of the board T1.

 

I'd start by splitting those big DC units up. The first list you can change them to 2x 7 and 1x 6 man squads.

 

The second list you can make 1x 10 and 1x 5 man.

 

As above, vindicators and assault armies do not really mesh too well. Your guys are going to be exactly where you want to drop the blast markers...

[Frater Cornelius]

Hm, no offense to you, but most of the time loses are attributed to mistakes on the board rather than list building. There are better people around here to comment on your list. What I am going to comment on is how to improve your play.

 

It is very simple, but take 5-10 minutes after a game and see what you would have done differently. Hindsight is always 20/20. Sometimes it is useful to take notes about it so that one can apply it to future scenarios.

Take time to do your turns. Do not stall, but think beyond your current move. Think about how the opponent would react to certain moves amd how you would react to his reaction. It is called Game Theory (that is the actual scientific term :D). Making moves based on the moment will only get you so far.

 

If you do all that and realize that it was a failing in the list, then you can go and amend it. But for now I would not focus on spending money or doing major re-organizations but rather work on your generalship ;)

[nevaenuffbass]

Thanks for the feedback all. 

 

The concept of the death company and AV13 tanks was to advance behind them. And no, it has not really worked out. In fact, in general I find the jump packs to slow to get into the combats that I want (but I just finished painting my DC). 

I have definitely found the lack of long range firepower to be an issue. But where to look? 

 

The issues with the lists I have come against

- eldar shootiness has whittled me down

- in about 4 games I don't think I have ever killed all the Thunderwolf cav on the table. These buggars are fast, incredibly resilient against shooting, and butcher everything they touch in close combat. Also - wolves pod really well. So much plasma in their squads, who can then fight afterward. 

- other space marines - grav on bikes has been able to whittle stuff down.

 

Regarding my generalship - yeah I hear what you are saying. And I think it might be that BA are not my first army (eldar is), so i could have a bit to learn. Still I have done well at tourns in the past - a BA pod list, and several eldar incarnations over the years. 

 

I've played with a few ideas as well. Like using all my troops slots on infiltrating scouts (the idea with them in the raven was as a surprise assault squad - S5 attacks on the charge, at I5 will (hopefully, the raven gets shot down more often than not) deal with small squads left in the late game. 

 

My alpha feels lack-lustre. In fact the whole army seems expensive per model against what I come against. Everything seems more fragile than eldar do (maybe that isn't surprising). 

 

In recollection, a few failings

- the AV13 tanks don't make their points back (often). Vindi is definitely more bark than bite. Baal / dakka preds used to work when I ran razorbacks. Now not so much. 

- There is'nt enough troops to bubble wrap against deep strike or space wolf assault. (hence my thoughts of 2 x 10 scouts)

- My jump pack units rarely get the charge

- drop podding squads don't last long (I miss corbulo and his tanking ability)

[Frater Cornelius]

It is generally better to focus on one thing. Want melee? Focus on DC, SG or ally in TWC. Want Alpha Strike? Get Tacs, AMS Meltacide and allied Centurions in your pods. Want mech? Get a wall of AV13.

The more you mix, the less efficient the respective strategy becomes.

[SlangWhanger]

^^This. Although it is good to have balanced forces, it is important not to dilute as you find yourself being taken apart piecemeal.

 

I find Jump-pack armies do work well, often better if going second. Just make sure you hug any cover available and make use of jump packs to pop out to charge. And the charge is VERY important as i'm sure you know, especially against another assault army and with the Baal Strike Force. Like a big brother of chess, games often take a bit of manoeuvring and planning before damage can be dished out, so be sure to use the army as a whole when executing plans instead of feeding the opposition units.

 

Lists wise, i'd say the main thing to think about is the Blood Angels' strength: elites. Yes they're expensive, but they're also very good at what they do. I virtually always run DC with Astorath (5-10 is ideal i find) and use these as a beatstick. Termis can either flounce or do great, so you could consider them... In a pod list, Furiosos are great if situational and can scare lots of opponents so distract heavier shooters.

 

The 'Scouts surprise' can work well, but as you said a raven can get shot down. This is where a land raider comes in handy. Stick 'em with a chappy, libby and/or sang priest and their is much fun to be had!

 

As for your meta, you can't go wrong with gravs and power weapons on various units.

 

Don't know if any of this helps or makes sense :D good luck in future games though!

 

Edit: or just get a knight :D

[Remtek]

From my past experience running similar lists (3ish pods and 400-500 point assault units) i had issues with synergi. It's makes your opponents decisions very easy for turn 1 and 2.  This is of couse just my opinion, but if your gonna run pod lists you need a lot more points in the Alpha (shooty list) and only use 3-500 points on assault in total. Taking one pod is still fine for distraction since it's a small investment. Astorath and liturgies is amazing offense, but he does not protect your unit well, a 2+3++ Captain on a bike will tank much better against shooting, or in close combat vs. t-wolves. Dante works too. Another option is to msu your DC like mentioned above making it more complicated for your opponent. 

 

Since i enjoy playing assault lists i have been using pod's less and less and i find it much easier to get win's with a highly mobile 'moving up the table' type of list. SG are totally viable, but i'd go with DC and try the SG again later. DC are just much eaiser to position and more forgiving to mistakes.

 

Things i'd avoid in the start:

-Razorbacks and Baal's since they have bad survability per point. It's so easy for mobile lists to get side shots on Baals, same with vindies one shaken and they do nothing.

-Deep striking units (except a full on pod lists)

-StormRaven if you don't have reserve re-rolls and your not having problems vs. flyrants i'd try some games without it. 

-Sanguinary Guard cause your facing pod lists and grav bikes

 

None of these units are bad, but they can be hard to play if they do not receive the right support and also seem weak vs your local meta.

 

 

Pod lists are strong, but since my results have not been great in general with them i'll throw out some templates of whats been working well for me.

 

FT detach (for the 6 fast slots)

3x5man grav bikes

3x ASM Rhino 2 melta

Libby barebones with JP

3x7 man DC 1 fist

10 man scout squad barebone cc

 

That's 1300-1400 points which leaves you with points left over for backfield stuff or perhaps a beatstick IC. Your DC have mobile cover from bikes with option of LoS blocking with Rhinos if your opponent dosnt have a lot of blasts.  The double melta Rhinos are often MVP since they have so much utility for the points. You can block units movement, tank shock obsec troops, disembark marines to protect DC from getting charged and can threaten high AV units by simply flatouting next to them. Try to avoid disembarking unless you really need too. Bikes will put a dent in to the t-wolves and if he assaults the bikes you can followup with 1,2 or 3 DC units counter charging the next turn. Whenever possible a good trick is to use scouts to help out a danger close combat, if you can get a scout base to base with a thunderhammer models your saving that many more DC. 

 

FT Detach

 

Deathstar 600ish points

Dante

6-7 bikes with grav and MM attack bike

Priest on bike

Libby on bike (optional)

 

1x 7man DC 1 fist

4x ASM Rhino double melta

10 man scout squad barebone cc

 

The main idea is to push with Rhinos and the Bikestar. Dante tanks ap3+ while using jink and los'ing wounds to bikes getting +4 cover and 5+fnp. Unless your opponent has ignore cover none of the units your pushing with will desirable to shoot at. Remember to use Hit and Run as much as possible. Give your priest a powerfist so you have one str 9 source. Cast quicken on Dante, fist or force sword whatever is called for.

 

Why FT over BSF?

Our meta is a lot of initiave 4 untis which should be ideal for BSF, but in practice my impression is it's not  really gonna help since many times things that will kill you in close combat is either initiative 1 or 6+. Do you really care if 10 tacticals can strike back doing a few wounds? There are of course some spots where it's really nice, but they are often few and far apart. The extra fast slots are really useful, since both bikes and ASM are really strong.

 

What about CAD?

I think building a list around 40 obsec scouts has huge potential, but without playtesting this is only a theory. 

 

This is just stuff that has been working for me in our local games, our meta is heavy on assault.

[Cronhour]

Y've had good mileage from this codex through flooding the table with our resilent andcost effective units. 3-5 pods with 5 shooty marines inside (quad melta/flamer, shooty command squad,fragioso, heavy flamer tac squad) this provides the turn 1 distraction to run my jp units up the table.

 

10 JP death company with two fists and a power weapon are a good place to start, with 5 ap3 attacks on the charge and 8 power fists as well as the weight of numbers from the standard marines means you can take on most units. at 2000 I was fitting 3 of these in a list and it was pretty evil.

 

Sanguinary guard can make a good deathstar and are great at killing marines, give them a priest and possibly dante if you feel like it and they threaten most things.

 

one thing I try and do is not over equip units so none of my assault units tend to get kitted out with plasma pistols or inferno pistols etc. I'd rather use them to fit extra bodies or units in. my pods pop the vehicles that need popping and the jp units jump up to engage, running usually first turn. I almost always take a SP or libby with veratis vitae, as two strategic traits can be a godsend. night fighting/vision and move through cover ruins are a god send allowing you to charge up through cover while your pods are survivable and do more damage turn 1.

 

both versus marines and old eldar i've found weight of jp troops really makes a difference, it gives you great board control and versatility to get about the board, the DC are great as with FNP they're pretty damn survivable, plus with a div or sanguinary libby you can really buff them  either with survivability (invun) or output (extra attacks or rerolls)

[nevaenuffbass]

Thanks for your ideas. I've found this helpful.

 

I'll post a list up in the list section shortly.

[rezin70]

Ive actually found in my meta that  BA do quite well, and Im not running anything "optimal" and my community runs fluffy sprinkle lists so i do as well.  It seems like your meta builds "play to win" lists, so sadly you may have to as well if you want to win.  Time to pull out the big guns if your facing white scars with grav spam every week, its time to pull out some cheese as well.  Heres some tips:

1.  Build a unit for a specific purpose and try to use it for that.  You say wolf cavalry is stomping you? Build a squad that can handle something of that magnitude and hunt it down.  become the predator not the prey.

 

2. I usually focus fire for on my threat analysis.  For example if the scariest thing my opponent has is thunderwolves, then imma kill it then move to next threat.  Dont just go for targets of oppurtunity cause at the end of the turn youll just look up and only had killed 2 guys from that squad, 1 hull point from that tank, and 1 wound from that guy. 

3.  Metal Boxes are your friend.  If your getting picked off before you get up field, run rhinos and turn them sideways as you advance using as cover, smile when your opponent wastes shots on them, cause if they become wrecked theyre still cover.

4.  Dante in Sang Guard squad with Priest.  Sooooo strong.  Good Deathstar Unit, can kill anything, 2+ saves with eternal warrior and FNP, yes please.  You get Descent of Angels with him so deep strike away. 

5.  Death Company are really good if used correctly and you get the charge, timing is everything.  Max DC in rhinos or land raiders with a couple of fists is great.  They WILL kill something and are easy to play.  Find the biggest thing out there and go kill it.

6.  CC scouts infiltrating up and absorbing your opponents opening attacks while the rest of the team moves up the field. If they ignore them then they can kill stuff too, 30 str 5 attacks  on the charge for 110 pts, not too shabby. Thats on par with 5 man Death Company squad. so you basically took a death company squad as your two troop choices.

Hope this helps

EDIT:  I also I notice all of your problems are coming from armies in power armor, run power swords instead of  axes in your list. 

[Captain Caine 24th]

There are a lot of great responses above. But, I'll add my two cents.

 

At first with this new codex I lost every game. It took me about two months to get back on my feet with it. I didn't play blood angels as an assault army in 6th ed (which I acknowledge is weird), but this new codex I think performs best as an assault army. More than any other edition it seems the synergy of units is of paramount importance. GW has sort of taken the edge off a lot of units. A lot of things were over powered and have been sort of evened out. As a consequence I think units need to work together a lot more in order to perform a task successfully. Rarely can you plug in a unit anywhere and it'll accomplish whatever you need. Those little buffs, however small, like +1 BS, furious charge, etc., all add up and have a big effect. I've lost a fair amount of games because I forgot about those little things that could have swung key combats across the board. So maybe that's advice for you and me both--to get a mental checklist or even on paper asking, "have I used/done everything this turn?"

 

I used to use reclusiarchs all the time. Now I've really come into librarians, even though they tend to die easily. What I like is the buffs for nearby units, and the tactical flexibility. They give me options to subtly change the use of a unit as I'm getting ready to deploy and develop a battle plan. I love divination (re-rolls, possible 4+ invuln). I haven't gotten sanguinary to work for me yet, but I think I need to build a list to accommodate it. Usually I have the librarian(s) with jump packs supporting multiple death company units. I admit psychic heavy armies do shut this down.

 

Are you playing maelstrom missions? (if not ignore) If so are you using the blood angel specific datacards? These are very very helpful in designing a list. Design it to get those big D3 points. Dante is also a real interesting plus for these missions. 

 

I remember a white dwarf probably in the late nineties that had a tactical discussion on leman russ demolishers. The idea was if you take one, take two. This always stuck with me and it's often repeated. Taken to its radical conclusion this probably sounds like an endorsement for spamming units. I won't go quite that far, but with Blood Angels I find I'm usually in a very gritty brawl to the last man. They aren't the toughest, or the best in hand to hand, but that's why you bring more than one unit to finish the job. 

 

Just like blood angel buffs, and datacards, I also believe in using the formations as much as tournaments will allow. If the bonus is there, don't leave it laying on the table. 

 

I've played 7 pod lists for a long time. I actually had more luck with it in 6th ed. Though that flesh tearer strike force with 6 FA slots really opens up some ferocious ally options if you'd like to go that route. I usually avoid a single suicide pod these days in a list, but I really like using pods to help my flyers stay alive. And as much as I play with pods, I'm not terribly good at facing them with my all comers list. The wolves are mean. 

 

Lately I've been running a base of 2 death company squads, a sanguinary guard squad, two vindicators and two stormravens. (I'm painting my first sicaran right now so the vindicators are probably first to be cut).

 

Veritas Vitae is really great. Deployment might be the most important part of the game and this relic's little buffs can help immensely. 

[Indefragable]

I am relatively new(new to TT wh40k as of Dec 2014) and my record reflects that at 5-7, but bear in mind that since losing my first 5 games, I have been 5-2. Some of the early losses can be partially chalked up to newbie mistakes (not understanding rules, etc...) but I am definitely starting to hit my stride. A couple key things I have picked up:

 

1) best piece of advice I have received about playing Blood Angels: "you WILL take casualties." Despite being SM, BA are not built for soaking up damage. You are going to lose models and units no matter who you fight. At first I was like "if I am going to die, might as well die charging!" But I got killed pretty quick. Then I did everything I could to mitigate this, but I kept losing. What clicked for me is that dieing on your own terms is worthwhile. What I mean by this is that as long as your units are dying doing what you want them to do, you stand a solid chance of winning. I.e. My Death Company units always get rocked. They rarely make it into combat without taking at least 20% casualties...but that's ok! Half the reason I use them is because enemies get scared by them and pour so much fire into them. The trick is if they make the Charge...great! They'll kill something! If not...no big deal! They distracted the enemy from something else

 

2) Synergy. This one is obvious at first but I can not emphasize enough how important it is. Whatever you play with or however you play with them, you need to make sure that your army as a whole works the way it is supposed to. Keeping #1 above in mind, it is about making sure everything compliments each other. That's why it is so easy to go "all in" on a particular army such as Mech. I like to mix and match and keep things modular (personally I love the Drop Pod-Vindicator-Jump Pack armies) but the key is making sure everything WORKS together somehow

 

3) # of Threats. This is the other thing I learned the hard way. If your opponent has to scratch his head to figure out which of your units he should kill first...you are doing it right! You can mix and match and do all sorts of things but the idea is to cause your opponent to lose his concentration and have to deal with whatever you have. You want your enemy to look at your army like it is a scorpion: if he deals with the right claw, the left will cut him as well. And vice versa. But if he deals with both claws, he still has the stinger to worry about.

 

4) Initiative. Both in the Tactical and Strategic senses. On the Tactical level, many of our units get Buffs to Iniative through Formations. BA are also great on the Charge, even on a Marine-vs-Marine level. Take advantage of that! Remember your ABC's: Always Be Chargin'. If your unit can't do more damage shooting (like Plasma, Melta, etc...) then Charge. If nothing else tie them up so one of your heavy hitters can come in and finish them off.

 

On a Strategic level, seize the Initiative (with Karlaen if you want to be literal). What I mean by that is make the enemy react to you. That's why I have fallen in love with Drop Pods and Deep Strikes...if nothing else, even in a worst case scenario where they get chewed up, the enemy has had to REACT to you and delay his own game plan. That's also why I love my Vindicator: it is the BA version of a Distraction Carnifex. Unless he is somehow all flyers, The enemy HAS to react to it somehow. As others have pointed out, 40k is Chess on steroids. So if you want your Death Company to carve through some xenos, you need to ask yourself what you are going to do to take pressure off of them, or will the DC be the threat that takes pressure off another unit?

 

To summarize, take initiave and get in your enemy's face (I mean in game terms...don't be a dick to him in real life), both strategically and tactically. Keep them reacting to you.

[Lord Ragnarok]

indefragable, that was some good general advice(not just BA). Thanks! ;)

[Indefragable]

indefragable, that was some good general advice(not just BA). Thanks! ;)

Delayed reaction but thanks! Hopefully I live up to my own advice.

[captain Angel]

I agree, excellent advice.

[dakkamasta]

Indefragable makes some good points especially about the syngergy aspect, few of our units are designed to take on any threat single handedly except for DC/Astorath or maybe Sang Guard/Dante. Everything else needs to be supported properly. Aside from drop pods or other deep striking units, you're main force should be either 1 large group or 2 smaller ones, the speed of our units across the whole codex allows us to combine many different units and still move together to support each other. E.g. If you bring a vindicator or 2 keep your jump DC near them, the vindi's provide cover for the DC and the DC in turn are an excellent counter-charge unit for anything that gets close to the vindicators.