Arc Rifles - where to put them

[GOFADK]

Are Arc Rifles best on Vanguards or Rangers?

[Ulfast]

I use mine on the vanguards as I want them to move forward and they can get those weapon in range. My rangers will most sit back and just shoot.

[Frater Cornelius]

Everywhere! On you car! On your toaster! On your wall! On your wife/girlfriend! On your pet! Arc Rifles everywhere!

 

But mainly it depends on your list setup. If you are running and close ranged army or pure shooting overload, I would recommend Vanguard seeing as they are cheaper and they will close the distance to enable rapid fire more often than Rangers. Rangers if you want the unit to hang back for whatever reason.

[Dez]

Rangers have Move Through Cover which actually edges Vanguard out a bit in the speed department. It's something I was considering....but they look so cool with the Arquebus I went with them instead :)

[Vel'Cona]

I really think either unit is fine for Arc Rifles, but the Vanguard have better synergy with Plasma Calivers so I usually equip them thusly.  Rangers definitely benefit mobility-wise from MTC, but they also get a bit more help from the Omnispex, which I consider necessary to get the most from the Arc Rifles (Jink saves and all that).

[Zembar]

I really think either unit is fine for Arc Rifles, but the Vanguard have better synergy with Plasma Calivers so I usually equip them thusly.  Rangers definitely benefit mobility-wise from MTC, but they also get a bit more help from the Omnispex, which I consider necessary to get the most from the Arc Rifles (Jink saves and all that).

Why would rangers benefit more from an omnispex?

[Frater Cornelius]

I guess because their guns are AP4 and thus they can threaten everything but 3+ and 2+ saves, whereas Vanguard mostly just cause armour saves.

[Vel'Cona]

Yes that; the low AP 5 means that most opponents won't need cover saves to deal with the Vanguard's shooting, whereas the Rangers are far more likely to ignore enemy armor saves and force them to resort to cover saves.  That said, there is absolutely no reason that you SHOULDN'T take an Omnispex on Vanguard, but if you were looking to save points they're the unit that needs it less, especially if they're not taking Arc Rifles.

[Vash]

It all runs down to what your army tactic is and unit purpose.

As others have said, close up fighting, the Vanguards are optimal. Taking it safe and easy from a distance, the Rangers is your choice. 

 

For me personally its the Vanguards. I keep my Rangers at a distance. 

[Frater Cornelius]

It all runs down to what your army tactic is and unit purpose.

As others have said, close up fighting, the Vanguards are optimal. Taking it safe and easy from a distance, the Rangers is your choice. 

 

For me personally its the Vanguards. I keep my Rangers at a distance. 

 

It is a good thing that we have to discuss such matters. There is legitimate choice here. I like it :)

[shandwen]

I plan on using the rangers to sit back, and keep 20+ inches distance from the enemy, so vanguard squads took all my arc rifles. I do kinda wish that I left my plasmas for them too.

As it is I plan on leaving plasmas on rangers to keep slightly more distance.

[Zembar]

I'm probably leaning towards arc rifles on vanguards too. Move through cover is nice, but 20 points less is nicer. And radium carbines are hilarious.

[mmimzie]

I think what ever unit you give the arc weapon to should be rather small and inexpensive. I'd say 5x with 2 arcs and 1 pistol w/spec for reduced cover. I think this saves you from wasting valuable shots, as every extra dude in the unit shooting at a tank with a rad gun is wasting it's turn.

 

Though I'm a noon so could be totally a terrible idea.

[Frater Cornelius]

Aggressive minimum-sized squads is quite a risk. 5 Bolters at half range will kill approximately 2 Vanguard. One whole unit of Tacticals will kill a 5 man Vanguard Squad. And there are a lot of thinks cheaper and more powerful than Tacticals. 110 for something that fragile and exposing it to enemy fire is pretty risky.

I can understand MSU Rangers seeing as they sit back at 24" in cover. But the more aggressive a unit is, the more survivability it needs. Vanguard get it by bringing ablative wounds. 10 Vanguard with 3 Arc Rifles cost 145. For only 35pts more you a better unit. Pistols are generally overpriced anyway.

[Vash]

The arc pistol is fairly priced in my opinion though. 

The fact that it is haywire makes it a good choice, for a dedicated tank hunter unit. 

When the unit is in close combat, that extra attack is at times a life saver. So for me, a pistol is an investment for extra attacks and also some shooting ability. 

[Frater Cornelius]

On a S3(4) and T3 that has difficulty surviving in the 12" area. Wasted points to me. But to each his own. If you like pistols, more power to you.

[Vash]

On a S3(4) and T3 that has difficulty surviving in the 12" area. Wasted points to me. But to each his own. If you like pistols, more power to you.

Again we are always looking at our big brothers in power armours. There are so many more types of soldiers out there. 

Orks are S3 T4, Eldar are S3 T4, Dark eldar S3 T4, Guardsmen S3 T3, Termagant S3 T3, and the list goes on with normal "average Joe's". 

Of course, there are many other units that are higher toughness and strength. 

 

I am getting the feeling that the only worthy model to field in this game (when readin on forums) is space marine stats or better. 

 

Bare in mind that the Vanguard is cheaper, has an ability to lower the space marines toughness with -1. This means we wound them on a 4+ (I know you know this). Consider that we will shoot before we go into combat, probably thinning out their numbers before we head in to close combat. 

Vanguards have a 4+ save, and a Feel no Pain ability (6+ yes... but its more than nothing). 

 

Now getting into the 12" area is up to each one of us to solve, and how to survive in it. 

But, what goes for us, goes for the enemy too. Getting within 12" is a key position for most armies as they have 24" rapid fire weapons. Sure our Vanguards have 18" assault weapons, but that means we are between 1-5" away from the enemy. The enemy can use his move to get within 12" i his movement phase, making our 18" safe zone not as interesting anymore from this point. And this is where I think the pistols come into play, when the enemy are moving into our 12" zone. 

 

There are many ways for the enemy to do this, which we all know. Drop pods, transports, deep strike. Thus saying that 12" pistols are a waste, is kinda hard for me to sink in. But then again, it runs down to local gaming meta. Around here we do not sit on one table edge and have a fire fight all day long. We also play Mealstorm missions forcing us to leave the comfort zone of our own deployment zone. And by hunting the same objectives chances are that we will enter 12" or less. 

 

Now I have fill respect for each player claiming his point of view and playing his own style. That is what makes this game great. 

 

On a final notice, I actually find it hard for most units in this game to survive within 12" against a well organised army. 

[Frater Cornelius]

I wouldn't take it on a MEQ either and I consider Vanguard better for their points than SM. It simply isn't worth it to me.

But we can argue until the cows come home. I consider it inefficient. You are saying the one shot is worth it. Everyone needs to make their own opinion.

[Vash]

I wouldn't take it on a MEQ either and I consider Vanguard better for their points than SM. It simply isn't worth it to me.

But we can argue until the cows come home. I consider it inefficient. You are saying the one shot is worth it. Everyone needs to make their own opinion.

Very true :D 

One shot is one shot. 

I had the same argument about close combat units. In an average they see one full turn of close combat, then they are dead. Worth the while? Well if you make the most of it, and have a solid tactic behind it yes. 

 

One haywire shot for me is worth it. A meltagun costs the same, and is effective against vehicles on a shorter range. But within its range it is more powerful. 

And as I said, one extra attack (in the good old days) cost 5-10 pts. 

One could argue if even the arc rifle is worth it, its two shots at 12", and one shot above 12". 

 

But its true as you say. In the end its up to each one of us. It doesn't suit your game tactic, then I see no reason for you to include them.

[Frater Cornelius]

Indeed. I prefer minimalistic approaches, avoiding things that do not yield an adequate output Y for an input X. For me, the relationship between X and Y is relevant. Max(Y) given Min(X)

You are interested in increasing the output Y. So you are looking for Max(Y). Neither of those approaches is right. Those are simply two different maximisation problems with different goals and approaches.

Damn, looks like the lectures are showing their influence on me :D

[mmimzie]

Are you two getting married, seems like you'd fit well together haha!! <3. I feel the arc rifle unit looses so much if its bigger. What ever else your unit has is completely wasted every time you shoot a tank.

 

I think our first two turns are very important. With the pistol and the arc rifles you only waste two models worth of shooting. If you have a unit of 10 while you do get the three weapons you now waste 7 guys every time you want to pop a tank. So your kind of forced to be in that 12 inch range to use your arc guns or its not worth it.

 

Two units of 5 guys can take turn one shots at a tank and more than likely kill it yes? Though now that I think about it I might have started seating to immersturms side on the pistol with this unit x.x Getting it in range is tough and your only ever going to get one shot with it if any.

 

I think it'll be in tank range turn 2, and after turn two your enemy won't have tanks if your crawlers, dragoons, and your arc rifle units have done their job.

 

Though again I'm a noon and my thoughts are near baseless mussing lmao. Oh shameless blug I'd love if some one would critique my list I put up in the skitarri army list forum :D

[Vash]

Now, we are forgetting that the arc rifles are not only good for vehicles. Its an excellent weapon versus infantry too. High strength and good AP. So I wouldn't say it is wasted in a large unit. When not shooting at tanks, the whole unit works really well together. 

[mmimzie]

That's a good point the guys can shoot other things, and they pair really well with the rad guy because the ap is the same. However, the arc gun shot when not in optimal range is worse by about 50% than the rad guy is all the time, and in optimal range it's only a hair better against T4 and T5, and it is increasingly worse against everything else (T1-3, and T6-9 if i'm reading the rules right). So you are spending 1.5 Vanguards to down or side grading your weapons effectiveness for anti tank power for sure. Which, is why i only spoke of them for thier anti tank purpose because that's where the shine.

 

And i think if you take those guns you want to take every opportunity to shoot a tank with them that you can, otherwise every shot you take at not a vehicle is wasting your points, and every rad shot you take at a vehicle is wasting the points. The arc isn't worthless against units, but i'd argue you'd rather a rad rifle 9 times out of 10 if you wanna shoot troops.

[marshall Egregorius]

To paraphrase a really enthusiastic kickstarter video, you guys are forgetting the largest reason to take arc rifles

 

 

" SOLAR-ELECTRIC FREAKING RIFLES"