Bionicman Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 Yeah we loved Vendettas in 5th, we really did. Now with all these changes to our beloved flyer I hear everyone saying: "Don't take Vendettas!" Lets have some Pro's and Con's: Con's: - Not on board in turn 1 (maybe even in 2nd) - with OoF or Comms Relay not a problem - Point cost - yeah :/ - Only 6 man capacity - enough for objective grabbers - BS3, 3 Shots - still best plattform for lascannons - Flyer Movement (straight line and such) - yeah Pro's: - 3 Lascannons, twinlinked! (=BS4) - Mobile & fast movement - Can carry 6 dudes and drop them backfield - Superiour to many other flyers, reliable AA - Flyer, so mostly snapshots against its AV12, no CC (except for Eldar) Honestly I do not see any unit in our codex which could replace a vendetta. We do lack reliable AT, AA and our forces are slow, riders and hellhounds aside. A Vendetta can fullfill all three uses with ease. So why leave it at home? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307129-a-substitude-for-vendettas/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoffeeGrunt Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 I very rarely do. That 6-man capacity is ideal for a Special Weapons Squad, so I have a squad with three Demolitions Charges that bail out and put the hurt on something threatening while the Vendetta itself tangles with enemy aircraft or armour. 3 Twin-Linked Lascannons also means you can Jink and still be a threat as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307129-a-substitude-for-vendettas/#findComment-4030764 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacinda Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 Don't take Vendettas? I don't think I have heard it put that harshly. More like with the point change it is no longer the single obvious best choice. - 3 Lascannons, twinlinked! (=BS4)It's better than BS4 BS4 has a 66% chance to hit while Twin-linked BS3 has a 75% chance to hit. The small transport capacity does limit your options. However, it is also a common practice to put small and cheap units in flying transports so you do not risk loosing a big force if the vehicle is shot down before dropping off its payload. Not that guard have any 10 man close combat death stars to risk anyway ... Vendettas are anti-armor/anti-flyer units. I think they fill that role nicely. They compete with Valkyries from the codex which have higher transport capacity and can take better anti-infantry load outs. Out of codex, they also compete with Vultures, Thunderbolts and Avenger Strike Fighters. The Forgewold flyers each have their own blend of anti-infantry and anti-vehicle weaponry. None of them can match Vendettas for anti-armor threat, but they all have their uses. 5th Edition point costs were a bit too low for Vendettas. The cost is more balanced now; Wyverns have the honor of being the under cost performer in the new codex. Anyway, if I want mobile anti-armor Vendettas are still my favorite choice. More so if I expect to face AV12 flyers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307129-a-substitude-for-vendettas/#findComment-4030908 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulrik_Ironfist Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 My set up is to take a 5 man stormtrooper squad in a vendetta for a nice late game melta strike. It has worked fairly well for me so far. I usually take a vendetta and a valkyrie in my list (I'm wanting to get another vendetta and two more valkyries). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307129-a-substitude-for-vendettas/#findComment-4031041 Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 I agree, "don't take them" is the overstatement of the year, I've heard lots of whining about the increased points cost and even more whining about not being able to put meltavets inside, but "so stop fielding them if they're so bad" quickly shuts those people up because even at the cost of a demolisher and running empty, they're awesome. I would also disagree with the premise that we don't have other good anti-air and other reliable anti-armor options. Everyone has access to the firestorm redoubt, and as unloved as they might be, few armies have access to ground-based air defenses as capable as the hydra, and they certainly don't get 12 S7 skyfire shots out of a single FOC! As for ranged anti-armor, vanquisher cannons are better than lascannons, and when you add a hull lascannon to a vanquisher...vendettas are slightly killier because they have three twinlinked shots, but they're also not AV14 and not on the table on turn one. You can make a strong argument that vendettas are better, but it would be incorrect to say that they are the only reliable choice...I find pasquisher in particular to be extremely effective, beating longstrike in a duel last time out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307129-a-substitude-for-vendettas/#findComment-4031103 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 Yes, who are these madmen advocating they be left in the hanger? :P Expensive yes, but you get what you pay for! They make a fine addition to our armoury and fulfil some roles very well and they look great too (once you've fought GW's instructions...). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307129-a-substitude-for-vendettas/#findComment-4031283 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bionicman Posted May 5, 2015 Author Share Posted May 5, 2015 It is good to see other officers fielding them as well as I am convinced they are s solid option and especially going well with infantry heavy lists. But correct me if I am wrong but they are absent from a lot of lists and if you are digging into postings in various boards people seem to simply dismiss Vendettas. It might be obvious but when talking point costs, one has to consider costs of a mandatory OOF or comms relay, leading to at least a second Vendetta to justify the investment. On the other hand such "hidden costs" also arise when taking Vanquishers or sentinels as you often want to twinlink them. Which is even more unrealiable. (On a side note I don't think Vanquishers are worth it, compared to Exterminators for AV <12 and melta drops for AV12+) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307129-a-substitude-for-vendettas/#findComment-4031350 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 Not every list has room for every unit unless you're talking Apoc levels. Vendettas perform a few roles well yes, but not to the degree they're auto includes certainly for the price. So short of a few obvious/basic units I don't pay too much heed to how much something appears in everyone's lists. Ours is a bountiful codex full of many units too! As for these opinions that's probably your own fault for slumming it outside the B&C Here any signs of the "hive mind" are treated like the taint of xenos they are - we encourage the variety of different opinions and approaches so nothing will be dismissed outright. At least not without running into the swagger stick... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307129-a-substitude-for-vendettas/#findComment-4031371 Share on other sites More sharing options...
steellegionnaire85 Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 Remember George Armstrong Custer didn't bring the gatling gun to the little big horn. It cost his men their lives. Each unit brings unique advantage s and disadvantages to the field. Your strategy and tactics can change with the equipment you bring to battle. It is you who wins or loses by how you play what you brought to the table. The dice and your opponent are just other players on the field. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307129-a-substitude-for-vendettas/#findComment-4031614 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulrik_Ironfist Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 I include the Vendetta in my lists because it's my big source of anti-air and anti-tank. Also because I'm an Air Power fanatic. Air Power! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307129-a-substitude-for-vendettas/#findComment-4031840 Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 On the other hand such "hidden costs" also arise when taking Vanquishers or sentinels as you often want to twinlink them. Which is even more unrealiable. (On a side note I don't think Vanquishers are worth it, compared to Exterminators for AV <12 and melta drops for AV12+) Nope...not even close. Pask pilots about 50% of all vanquishers that hit the tabletop worldwide...and 100% of vanquishers fielded in my LGS, which has 7 guard players! The difference between BS3 and "almost BS5" is impossible to overstate. I understand that most of the non-pask vanquishers are generic tank commanders, hence BS4. No real call to twinlink...it's precisely because twinlinking (via prescience) is, as you say, unreliable that nobody fields BS3 vanquishers. As for whether vanquishers are worth it, it depends entirely on their accuracy, and their long range. There are only two russ variants with range greater than 48", the LRBT and the Vanq. There's no real benefit in BS for pieplates, so if you're running a tank commander/pask, and you want to simultaneously make good use of his boosted BS and keep him out of reach of enemy anti-AV14 shooting, you go for the vanquisher and bury him in a corner with his wingman 1/2" closer to the enemy for maximum denial of the "slay the warlord" VP. My Pask has died twice in 32 games, and both of those involved me being tabled by daemons or the new necrons. And I guarantee better results once I understand the way that the new necron codex works. You don't so much give a tank commander a vanquisher to make him your MEGA AWESOME KILLER OF DOOM, you do it to enable him to contribute to the fight from a safe position out of danger. That said, autopenetrating AV14 with AP2 might not auto-explode, but it's a damned sight more dangerous than a krak missile! I include the Vendetta in my lists because it's my big source of anti-air and anti-tank. Also because I'm an Air Power fanatic. Air Power! Get some thunderbolts and marauders! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307129-a-substitude-for-vendettas/#findComment-4031859 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bionicman Posted May 6, 2015 Author Share Posted May 6, 2015 On the other hand such "hidden costs" also arise when taking Vanquishers or sentinels as you often want to twinlink them. Which is even more unrealiable. (On a side note I don't think Vanquishers are worth it, compared to Exterminators for AV <12 and melta drops for AV12+) Nope...not even close. Pask pilots about 50% of all vanquishers that hit the tabletop worldwide...and 100% of vanquishers fielded in my LGS, which has 7 guard players! The difference between BS3 and "almost BS5" is impossible to overstate. I understand that most of the non-pask vanquishers are generic tank commanders, hence BS4. No real call to twinlink...it's precisely because twinlinking (via prescience) is, as you say, unreliable that nobody fields BS3 vanquishers. Sure, Pask is another story. I cannot field him because of our groups regulations (no UCMs) and seek to accomplish victory with non hero units anyway. And you are correct regarding AV14, but how many models besides LR, Landraiders and Monoliths sport AV14? So most times I would prefer 3 shots with S9 twinlinked over 2 shots with BS4 or 3, one with armourbane (again not counting pask) :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307129-a-substitude-for-vendettas/#findComment-4032093 Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 Well, I suppose if you're disallowing the one thing that makes the vanquisher work, then, yeah, the vanquisher doesn't work. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307129-a-substitude-for-vendettas/#findComment-4032194 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoffeeGrunt Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 and they certainly don't get 12 S7 skyfire shots out of a single FOC! *Cough cough.* Broadside Battlesuits get that as well as 12 S5 shots. *Cough.* Granted, said squad then costs 45pts more than its equivalent in Hydras, but can also fire at full BS against ground targets too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307129-a-substitude-for-vendettas/#findComment-4032218 Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 Hehe...well, there is that. I hadn't thought of that because I would prefer that the broadsides run with rails and be accompanied by the jink-denying commander of DOOOOOM...which is pretty expensive, but oh, so nasty! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307129-a-substitude-for-vendettas/#findComment-4033087 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoffeeGrunt Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 I wish Rail Rifles were worth taking, they're easily the best option model-wise. Thankfully, not something most will face, and thus not a real danger to worry about encountering. They need to go back to being Railguns proper. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307129-a-substitude-for-vendettas/#findComment-4033105 Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 I agree that missile-sides are better, but screw it, my only broadsides are the old metal ones, so that's what I field...they're pretty crappy against ground targets, so I just use them as my air defense, and S8 with no jink alllowed is pretty freakin' scary to a flier! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307129-a-substitude-for-vendettas/#findComment-4033150 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulrik_Ironfist Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 I agree broadsides are awesome, but we should definitely get back on topic before the Commissariat decides to start blaming things... I include the Vendetta in my lists because it's my big source of anti-air and anti-tank. Also because I'm an Air Power fanatic. Air Power! Get some thunderbolts and marauders! I would love to, but forgeworld is expensive and I'm poor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307129-a-substitude-for-vendettas/#findComment-4033283 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butcher Braxton Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 Honestly ive never heard annyone say: "Lets not bring my av12 free extra armour 3 twinlinked las powerd tank molestor with points capturing carrying capacety" Its my oponents flying nightmare so i tend to bring it :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307129-a-substitude-for-vendettas/#findComment-4034730 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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