Naked Vanguard

[Frater Cornelius]

I saw another forum member mentioning naked Vanguard and this got me thinking. This isn't as bad as it might first appear. Having playing plenty of SM, I find it hard to grasp the idea of a naked basic unit.

10 dudes just cost mere 100 points. That is close to nothing. They are so cheap, that just by adding three weapons and an Omnispex, their cost sky rockets. Adding 3 Arc Rifles and an Omnispex increases their cost by 55% and three Calivers with Omnispex by staggering 100%.

However, with the advent with Cult, we will have access to more durable and more cost efficient heavy weapons. So why not need Vanguard on anti-infantry and anti-MC duty? They can wound anything and each unit puts out 30 shots. They can pile wounds on the toughest customers around.

I think the biggest draw is that they only cost 100 points. That is extremely cost efficient dakka and arguably more cost efficient than adding extra shiny bits on them.

 

Thoughts? I am sort of starting to like it.

[nziv]

I like it, having naked units for very specific goals put more bodies on the field.

As long as you have other troops for other jobs it's sometimes best to stay cheap and specific than expensive and multipurpose

[Vash]

The Skitarii, both the Vanguards and Rangers, are good as they come. 

Their basic weapons really covers what they need to do on their own. Adding special weapons is a bonus, and sometimes a curse. Like the OP said, adding 3 Plasma Calivers and an omnispex increases the squads cost with 100%. 

The unit now becomes super specialised and the standard guys now become meat shields for the guys with special weapons. 

 

Against softer targets, non space marines, a naked unit is overall more interesting I think. But, once you go up against tougher units, the plasmas really do shine and are worth their expensive cost. 

[Frater Cornelius]

The Skitarii, both the Vanguards and Rangers, are good as they come. 

Their basic weapons really covers what they need to do on their own. Adding special weapons is a bonus, and sometimes a curse. Like the OP said, adding 3 Plasma Calivers and an omnispex increases the squads cost with 100%. 

The unit now becomes super specialised and the standard guys now become meat shields for the guys with special weapons. 

 

Against softer targets, non space marines, a naked unit is overall more interesting I think. But, once you go up against tougher units, the plasmas really do shine and are worth their expensive cost. 

 

You have to consider that Cult units bring incredible dakka. TL Heavy Phosphor Blasters, Relentless platforms with heavy version of the Skitter Special weapons. What Cult does not bring is numbers. I guess this is the primary reason why I am suggesting it. Put 1.5 times more dudes on the board and leave the specialists to do the special stuff.

 

Of cause, this only really works when allying with Cult. Mono Skitter will need to invest in specials.

[Vel'Cona]

I think my primary issue with running naked Skitarii units is the lack of ObjSec.  If they gave us some kind of HQ we could go for CAD and drop a stack of cheap scoring units (with decent durability) and use our other roles (Heavy Support, Elites, etc.) to plug gaps.  As it is, trying to spam Skitarii without upgrades leaves them woefully underequipped to deal with specific threats; for similar costs you can ally IG Veterans or other cheap special weapon spam units if all you need is ObjSec bodies.

[d@n]

Anti vehicle and low at isn't a problem. I'd rather put the points into neutron lasers then arc or plasma. In a vacuum both weapons seem pretty good. But when you consider army wide coherency with all the anti vehicle guns on iron striders,onagers and the Rangers sniping out your enemy's anti tank guys giving the previously mentioned units more turns to fire and then there's rustalkers having haywire you don't really need arc rifles. With the protector imperatives, plasma calivers are a bit redundant as your getting so many hits and there for so many wounds plus additional wounds from mor 6s low ap anh high strength plasma is unnecessary and make skitarii a priority target. In a nutshell the points you would put into arc or plasma can be better spent elsewhere, 3 plasma calivers are another onager 3x arc riffles are another dragoon and 3x arquebus are another iron strider.

[Vel'Cona]

It's sad really, because this honestly means that the Transuranic Arquebus is probably the least useful weapon in the codex. Since it makes the other weapons in the squad useless (due to 60" range) and is generally about as effective as a Krak Missile (for 10 points more), there's honestly not much reason to take it. To get two of them in a minimum Vanguard squad, you'd have to spend 105 points, which will nearly get you two stock Ironstriders.

Anyone else think the TA should have gained an extra shot or been AP 2?

[Zembar]

Nah, it's pretty neat, but it should have been cheaper.

[Frater Cornelius]

The problem with the AT is that it fails pretty much at anything it tries to do, mainly because it tries to do too many things. S4 + 2D6 on average is not enough to threaten most tanks. At the same time, wounding on a 4+ means that it isn't as reliable against infantry either. Precision Shot is too random, seeing as you need lucky rolls to make most of it. Other weapons do the job better.

[Charlo]

Naked seems to be the optimal route here. After realising the cost I think I'd only ever put Plasma in the Warlord's squad (assuming mono skit) or in an allied drop pod, that is filthy alpha strike for the points, but foot slogging not so much.

 

The weapons are cool but I suppose overall inefficient?

[Frater Cornelius]

Naked seems to be the optimal route here. After realising the cost I think I'd only ever put Plasma in the Warlord's squad (assuming mono skit) or in an allied drop pod, that is filthy alpha strike for the points, but foot slogging not so much.

 

The weapons are cool but I suppose overall inefficient?

 

I wouldn't say inefficient. There are more cost-efficient alternatives. That is the issue.

[Charlo]

It certainly solves the "one of each" in every box problem!

 

Conversely, are naked Rangers any good? Or would you always go for something on them?

[marshall Egregorius]

I would say naked rangers are good for ranged, kind of like an imperial fire warrior squad.

[Vash]

I would say naked rangers are good for ranged, kind of like an imperial fire warrior squad.

yah, that is true. Less strength, but better AP. With Omnispex I think the Rangers could be more useful than the fire warriors. 

[d@n]

Naked Rangers are going to be causing 2-3 unsaved wounds on tactical marines a turn with the shooty doctrina and as there precision shots you are going to take put all the special and heavy weapons. Very useful imo

[Vash]

Naked Rangers are going to be causing 2-3 unsaved wounds on tactical marines a turn with the shooty doctrina and as there precision shots you are going to take put all the special and heavy weapons. Very useful imo

I know players in general do their "math hammering" against space marines. But, space marines are getting less and less common (around my area at least). 

We need to consider other opponents also. Eldar are pretty popular, and their aspect warriors have 4+ saves. The Rangers are really deadly versus them, and will most likely keep those dire avengers at bay. The Fire warriors will of course also do this, but not as effective as the Rangers. 

Now... I have moved away from topic... sorry. This is about the Vanguards. 

[marshall Egregorius]

 

Naked Rangers are going to be causing 2-3 unsaved wounds on tactical marines a turn with the shooty doctrina and as there precision shots you are going to take put all the special and heavy weapons. Very useful imo

I know players in general do their "math hammering" against space marines. But, space marines are getting less and less common (around my area at least). 

We need to consider other opponents also. Eldar are pretty popular, and their aspect warriors have 4+ saves. The Rangers are really deadly versus them, and will most likely keep those dire avengers at bay. The Fire warriors will of course also do this, but not as effective as the Rangers. 

Now... I have moved away from topic... sorry. This is about the Vanguards. 

 

 

Ok, for those not in the know, i have come to understand mathhammer shorthand as the following:

 

Terminators = TEQ

Marines = MEQ

carapace/4+ = CEQ

Guardsman/5+ save = GEQ

[Brother Amarel]

Naked seems to be the optimal route here. After realising the cost I think I'd only ever put Plasma in the Warlord's squad (assuming mono skit) or in an allied drop pod, that is filthy alpha strike for the points, but foot slogging not so much.

 

The weapons are cool but I suppose overall inefficient?

 

I'm not sure "optimal" is true; as with most things it depends on the situation. For example, if you have second turn and you've only bought naked Vanguard to support your Onagers, then those Onagers are not going to last long. However, if you give your opponent a viable conundrum with potential targets (such as Scouting Plasma Vanguard vs Base Onager) then he has to make a decision.

 

There's certainly a place for a blob of naked Vanguard (that sounds hideous if taken of context, btw), but it isn't a one-size fits all answer. 

[d@n]

 

 

Naked seems to be the optimal route here. After realising the cost I think I'd only ever put Plasma in the Warlord's squad (assuming mono skit) or in an allied drop pod, that is filthy alpha strike for the points, but foot slogging not so much.

 

The weapons are cool but I suppose overall inefficient?

I'm not sure "optimal" is true; as with most things it depends on the situation. For example, if you have second turn and you've only bought naked Vanguard to support your Onagers, then those Onagers are not going to last long. However, if you give your opponent a viable conundrum with potential targets (such as Scouting Plasma Vanguard vs Base Onager) then he has to make a decision.

 

There's certainly a place for a blob of naked Vanguard (that sounds hideous if taken of context, btw), but it isn't a one-size fits all answer.

 

Naked Rangers are going to be causing 2-3 unsaved wounds on tactical marines a turn with the shooty doctrina and as there precision shots you are going to take put all the special and heavy weapons. Very useful imo

 

I know players in general do their "math hammering" against space marines. But, space marines are getting less and less common (around my area at least).

We need to consider other opponents also. Eldar are pretty popular, and their aspect warriors have 4+ saves. The Rangers are really deadly versus them, and will most likely keep those dire avengers at bay. The Fire warriors will of course also do this, but not as effective as the Rangers.

Now... I have moved away from topic... sorry. This is about the Vanguards.

about half the codices are marines and i have found that about three quarters of players play some type of marine or have them As allies but it really depends on your Meta.

[ronin_cse]

 

Naked Rangers are going to be causing 2-3 unsaved wounds on tactical marines a turn with the shooty doctrina and as there precision shots you are going to take put all the special and heavy weapons. Very useful imo

I know players in general do their "math hammering" against space marines. But, space marines are getting less and less common (around my area at least). 

We need to consider other opponents also. Eldar are pretty popular, and their aspect warriors have 4+ saves. The Rangers are really deadly versus them, and will most likely keep those dire avengers at bay. The Fire warriors will of course also do this, but not as effective as the Rangers. 

Now... I have moved away from topic... sorry. This is about the Vanguards. 

 

 

Eh they are still the basic Skitarii troops, I don't think it is that far off.

 

So against T3 4+ save units (so Tau and Eldar in general) a 10 man squad of rangers in rapid fire range, and hitting on 2s due to a doctrine should kill 11 models if they don't have a cover save, with a 5+ cover save that's 7.407 dead. Holy crap that's awesome.

 

About 15 dead if the warlord is in there for preferred enemy, and about 10 dead with a 5+ cover. Gotta love it

[d@n]

 

Naked seems to be the optimal route here. After realising the cost I think I'd only ever put Plasma in the Warlord's squad (assuming mono skit) or in an allied drop pod, that is filthy alpha strike for the points, but foot slogging not so much.

 

The weapons are cool but I suppose overall inefficient?

 

 

I'm not sure "optimal" is true; as with most things it depends on the situation. For example, if you have second turn and you've only bought naked Vanguard to support your Onagers, then those Onagers are not going to last long. However, if you give your opponent a viable conundrum with potential targets (such as Scouting Plasma Vanguard vs Base Onager) then he has to make a decision.

 

There's certainly a place for a blob of naked Vanguard (that sounds hideous if taken of context, btw), but it isn't a one-size fits all answer.

the flaw in your asessment is that you could just take more onegar if you don't upgrade the vanguards making your ranger/ vanguard even more effective as there not going to get focussed on. There's a lot more that can kill your skitarii then your onager anyway.

[Frater Cornelius]

Keeping the Vanguard naked simply means specializing them against things with a T value, making use of all the guns as opposed to multipurpose squads where one or another gun might be useless. If taken out of context, then naked Vanguard will obviously not be the optimal solution. You have to consider that in this scenario other units bring the special weapon shots are a better price.

[marshall Egregorius]

Keeping the Vanguard naked simply means specializing them against things with a T value, making use of all the guns as opposed to multipurpose squads where one or another gun might be useless. If taken out of context, then naked Vanguard will obviously not be the optimal solution. You have to consider that in this scenario other units bring the special weapon shots are a better price.

 

Hence my thought to ally in an IG plasma blob as "Hyspasists" and converting them accordingly.

[Charlo]

Considering a full salvo at BS5 puts out 12 wounds on T5+, they really are something against those sort of units. Bikers will cry.

[Frater Cornelius]

 

Keeping the Vanguard naked simply means specializing them against things with a T value, making use of all the guns as opposed to multipurpose squads where one or another gun might be useless. If taken out of context, then naked Vanguard will obviously not be the optimal solution. You have to consider that in this scenario other units bring the special weapon shots are a better price.

 

Hence my thought to ally in an IG plasma blob as "Hyspasists" and converting them accordingly.

 

 

With other units I mean Cult units :P