Including Draigo in your list

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Strike mech is like the worst of both worlds. You're not Relentless, so amusingly your psycannons only fire at bolt pistol range, while your regular Strikes shoot twice as far. You're also the worst in melee in the codex, so again, GG if you get charged or try and charge something. Also, you're still not that much less expensive than Terminators. Who can be in range of the enemy Turn 1 and threaten charges, and survive a much wider array of weapons. And don't have to take hammers on their Justicars. Etc etc. 

 

5 Rhinos isn't a hard challenge for most armies to destroy. They only need to kill 1-2 per turn to neuter your army completely by Turn 3-4. At that point, you're too slow, too fragile and lack any way to threaten your opponents force. And I'm not even talking the power armies in 40k. Eldar would die of laughter seeing you put down 25x PA models and 5x AV11 deathtraps, and only 2 DK's. Necrons would also love you, because they can torrent you to death a lot easier than TDA, and gauss is GG to all vehicles. 

 

For a casual game, sure, it would be interesting and maybe catch people off guard (because it hasn't been seen since 5th). In a tournament setting? Enjoy losing Round 1 to even average lists. Throne help you if you fight a regular with a more powerful build. 

[Zhukov]

Strike mech is like the worst of both worlds. You're not Relentless, so amusingly your psycannons only fire at bolt pistol range, while your regular Strikes shoot twice as far. You're also the worst in melee in the codex, so again, GG if you get charged or try and charge something. Also, you're still not that much less expensive than Terminators. Who can be in range of the enemy Turn 1 and threaten charges, and survive a much wider array of weapons. And don't have to take hammers on their Justicars. Etc etc. 

 

5 Rhinos isn't a hard challenge for most armies to destroy. They only need to kill 1-2 per turn to neuter your army completely by Turn 3-4. At that point, you're too slow, too fragile and lack any way to threaten your opponents force. And I'm not even talking the power armies in 40k. Eldar would die of laughter seeing you put down 25x PA models and 5x AV11 deathtraps, and only 2 DK's. Necrons would also love you, because they can torrent you to death a lot easier than TDA, and gauss is GG to all vehicles. 

I am not going to play this pointless game of negative theoryhammer with you. One can downtalk any kind of list with words, it leads to absolutely nothing. Feel free to come back when you're capable and willing to discuss in a constructive matter.

 

For a casual game, sure, it would be interesting and maybe catch people off guard (because it hasn't been seen since 5th). In a tournament setting? Enjoy losing Round 1 to even average lists. Throne help you if you fight a regular with a more powerful build.

 

I find this passage highly ironic. Here we are, you commenting on how I would perform in a tournament setting with a list like this, while you don't play them (tournaments) yourself. Here is the difference between us in the end:

-You play locally in a heavily comped country, a thing you admitted yourself. You have very set views on what work and not, mostly based on theory or local experience. Cherrypicked tournament results of other players are your favourite back-up. You are a close minded theoretical person.

-I played against ETC players of multiple countries and in multiple international tournaments, both with succes. Heck, my most regular playmate through the years has played for multiple countries in the ETC. You follow, somewhat at least I guess, the tournament scene, while I participate. You talk, I walk. I am an open minded practical person, who uses words, math and logic as back-up, not as main weapon to prey on the weak.

 

1 thing you also don't seem to realise is this: People are capable of reading comprehension and making their own judgement. Just because you have the stamina of an Arabic horse regarding discussions and thus people often give up on discussing with you, doesn't matter you 'won' them. This isn't a court with actual judges and lawyers. When people find you wrong, negative and unpleasant then that's the verdict, regardless of actual proof.

[Prot]

 

Yes, as a competitive list. Interesting question. I don't know if it wouldn't work with basic marines to be honest, it should, I think Rhinos will make a comeback. Some things which might have to do with it:

-Marines have Droppods, making Rhinos less attractive, also because bolters work best at 12" range while stormbolters are fine at 24" range.

-Marines have acces to cheap Bikes with a ton of special rules with White Scars and Khân, Bikes being an excellent platform for Grav weaponry.

 

I'm not saying this is thé best thing to do with pure Grey Knights, it's just an idea. Don't take my word for it either, unless you want to. As you might recall I was busy moving. Well I moved (to France) by now and I managed to track down some of the French ETC team. I'm hopefully able to get games in with them soon, in which I'll probably test these kind of Rhino based lists for GK's. Apart from that the tournament scene in France seems... dissapointing, no good overall organization leading to few good singles tournaments. (They have a lot of team tournaments though lol).

 

Edit: Psycannon for the Grey Knights as special weapon (it makes each unit technicly able to kill anything in the game, which is important in this case)!

 

Did I just suggest a list with Psycannon wielding Strike Squads in Rhinos?! No Comms Relay?! No NSF?! I must be mad!

 

 

- I'm trying to think of literally why I always drop pod my Ultra's, so favorably over rhino's. I think it's probably 2 fold: as you mention the strength of marine 12" shooting is probably at its best in that range. Secondly, it's the only sure way to actually get where I need to...

 

- For strict GK of course, there are no pods, so this has me reflecting on my last experiences with rhino's and quite honestly it's with my Crimson Slaughter! Oddly enough it was my plethora of AV12 (I was playing the Helbrute formation) that made my Rhino's very potent. I say 'potent' because the opponent wants these Helbrutes down... and doesn't actually want to shoot at a Rhino with 5 guys walking behind it. Yet there it is with ObSec staring him in the face. (I think the only thing people hate shooting more than Rhino's is Drop Pods. lol )

 

- Oddly enough, the Rhino has changed so much in the game over the years, it is now just a moving shield. It is relegated to a moving garbage can. But it's just cheap enough, that as you say it might be worth littering on the battlefield....Especially in any ObSec required game (as you say, doubling ObSec units for cheap in an expensive army is an asset.)

 

- I think it's worth a shot. Heck at this point I've been glued to one or two list variants.

 

- The 32mm base thing... it's funny you mention that. I've been warning others to be careful of jumping to 32 MM bases. I am keeping my Ultramarines in smaller bases, because a lot of the squads are bigger. The small GK squads fit okay, but I've noticed something else that's bugging me... a lot of terrain, let's say steps up a strong hold, or a barrier... the wider base leaves you more exposed, and makes even Deep Strike an issue. These are things I never thought of until playing with the new base size. GK's I'll keep 32mm, but bigger marine armies, I'd be cautious about it (I even thought of just putting elites on 32mm).

 

 

 

 

I think that could work really well actually, though I'd change it up slightly and go for 5 TLLC razorbacks while having the strikes deepstrike instead. You get the long range firepower that we've been bemoaning and table saturation.

 

- I have a 'fun' list made where I have Purgs sitting on a Promethium Pipe. At one end is the Purg squad doing the torrent flamer thing, the other end is a Las/Plas razorkback with a 4++. I think if you field a large Rhino army, the Razorbacks might be more valuable because of AV12 target saturation.

 

I've learned from playing Chaos, which has no shortage of AV12, that AV12 saturation at these higher point games does have value. Lately in the game everyone has shrunken their lists to include mighty units that can rip apart a planet, but hates shooting at the humble rhino. It's not a bad idea. We might come full circle with this idea and it might be a cool idea for me to try anyway.

 

(P.S. it certainly won't hurt for me to test it, and figure it out as I have probably 7 Rhino's without paint on them; just sitting around!!)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I am not going to play this pointless game of negative theoryhammer with you. One can downtalk any kind of list with words, it leads to absolutely nothing. Feel free to come back when you're capable and willing to discuss in a constructive matter.

 

So you concede you're wrong and have nothing else to contribute? Cool

I find this passage highly ironic. Here we are, you commenting on how I would perform in a tournament setting with a list like this, while you don't play them (tournaments) yourself. Here is the difference between us in the end:

 

I don't play in tournaments because the Oz scene is garbage. I dunno how it is in France. Doesn't mean I don't fight tourney players and lists. 

-You play locally in a heavily comped country, a thing you admitted yourself. You have very set views on what work and not, mostly based on theory or local experience. Cherrypicked tournament results of other players are your favourite back-up. You are a close minded theoretical person.

 

Que? I actually don't refer to specific games or tournaments much at all. I'm more interested in broader trends. If anyone is cherry picking, it's you. 

-I played against ETC players of multiple countries and in multiple international tournaments, both with succes. Heck, my most regular playmate through the years has played for multiple countries in the ETC. You follow, somewhat at least I guess, the tournament scene, while I participate. You talk, I walk. I am an open minded practical person, who uses words, math and logic as back-up, not as main weapon to prey on the weak.

 

Are we really comparing e-peens? Come on man. Incidentally, seeing as we are talking tourney results, where do you actually end up? Because it's not with GK, if you are placing highly. With Death Guard (ie CSM), I can totally see you doing well (they're a strong army with a boring way of doing so). 

 

Anytime you wanna talk facts, I'm ready. This posturing is pathetic. 

1 thing you also don't seem to realise is this: People are capable of reading comprehension and making their own judgement. Just because you have the stamina of an Arabic horse regarding discussions and thus people often give up on discussing with you, doesn't matter you 'won' them. This isn't a court with actual judges and lawyers. When people find you wrong, negative and unpleasant then that's the verdict, regardless of actual proof.

 

Top kek. 'Even though I failed to actually argue my case, provide any evidence or compelling arguments, I still won because I have the moral high ground'. 

 

I now expect Rhino GK to stomp every tourney in France. Please report back when you've accomplished this mighty feat :)

 

- I think it's worth a shot. Heck at this point I've been glued to one or two list variants.

 

If Zhukov says it, it's not only true, it's so true you can't even argue against it. Rhino GK is the new power build

- I have a 'fun' list made where I have Purgs sitting on a Promethium Pipe. At one end is the Purg squad doing the torrent flamer thing, the other end is a Las/Plas razorkback with a 4++. I think if you field a large Rhino army, the Razorbacks might be more valuable because of AV12 target saturation.

 

Razorbacks are AV11 as well, so it makes zero difference. They're just more expensive Rhinos who have mediocre firepower for their cost. 

 

Regarding the prometheium pipes, it's a neat combo, but it's not exactly game-winning. 

I've learned from playing Chaos, which has no shortage of AV12, that AV12 saturation at these higher point games does have value. Lately in the game everyone has shrunken their lists to include mighty units that can rip apart a planet, but hates shooting at the humble rhino. It's not a bad idea. We might come full circle with this idea and it might be a cool idea for me to try anyway.

 

Not really. Rhinos don't become magically better because of better things to shoot at. 

[Zhukov]

So you concede you're wrong and have nothing else to contribute? Cool

......

Top kek. 'Even though I failed to actually argue my case, provide any evidence or compelling arguments, I still won because I have the moral high ground'.

I don't concede anything. I refuse to argue this case with you in the way you want it. You make of that what you want.

I don't play in tournaments because the Oz scene is garbage. I dunno how it is in France. Doesn't mean I don't fight tourney players and lists.

You do not see the problem here? What kind of tournament players are you playing against? The ones who attend the tournaments you deem too garbage to attend? Or are the players you play against locally travelling to distant tournaments which arent garbage?

I now expect Rhino GK to stomp every tourney in France. Please report back when you've accomplished this mighty feat

Twist my words all you want, I doubt it will fool anybody at this point.

[thade]

Time for a time out. I may unlock this after a day or so, once heads have had time to cool off.