Thinking about starting chaos

[sunspear]

I have been away from the hobby pretty much of last edition, and all of this one. I am thinking about getting back in with marines. My question is I like the chaos lord, I like marines and terminators. I gather from what I have read that these aren't optimal choices. But I plan on playing my old time gaming buddy and we usually play beer and pretzels games but I would like something at least fairly relevant. What chaos codex or supplement should I use?

[Lucio]

The Khorne Daemonkin book has been getting some good press, and even just using a Chaos Lord, Berzerkers and Chaos Marines you can manage some reasonable results against opponents, though for optimal play you'll need to dip a little into the daemonic side. For relatively little, you can field a 1500pt army that's competitive (to a certain point) and fun.

For your more traditional armies, I'd suggest looking at another army list, but making the models look like Chaos Marines. A popular choice for this is the Space Wolf codex.

[sunspear]

Thanks Lucio I appreciate the info. Maybe u should have explained it better though. I would like to stick with chaos as far as codex or supplements go. I will check out the daemon kin book though!

[Luther - the fallen]

I second the choice of Daemonkin. A slaughtercult can be build using only Astartes with a unit of possessed. also it has some great advantages that IMHO are very fluff correct. :D 

 

- Luther

[GreyCrow]

Thanks Lucio I appreciate the info. Maybe u should have explained it better though. I would like to stick with chaos as far as codex or supplements go. I will check out the daemon kin book though!

 

Well, to put it simply, the current Chaos Codex is starting to feel very outdated. It was one of the first of 6th edition, and Games Workshop has taken a very different direction with the Codex releases. Simply put, the Necrons, Daemonkin and Eldars have two very different things compared to the codexes that went out before in 7th edition :

1) They are overall much more powerful : fielding units according to fluffy formations give you free and nasty perks. Free new rules, points drop all around, purposefully designed synergy between the units.

2) They are very themed.

 

You are right to feel that Khrone Daemonkin aren't really Chaos Space Marines. They're more Khorne Worshippers who just want to slaughter for the Blood God, bringing his glory to the forefront and allowing his infernal legions to spill forth. It's got a very interesting mechanics that the more units and characters (friend or foe) die, the more points you get to spend on bonuses that apply armywide or summon units or even Daemon Princes or Bloodthirsters.

The drawback is that you have to love Daemons, because that's what the end goal (in the fluff) of the Daemonkin is about. Crazy blood frenzied maniacs who live only to kill and spill blood to allow the Khornate Legions to spill worth.

 

Which is cool and all, but if that's not your cup of tea, you might want to stick with the regular Chaos Codex (or perhaps the Black Legion supplement). Just bear in mind that against newer Codexes like Necrons, Daemonkin or Eldar, you'll be at a serious disadvantage. :) I playtested against a competitive Eldar Jetbike list with the new rules and there was literally no way my Chaos army could win due to their new stuff.

[Khornestar]

I wouldn't put Daemonkin on the same power level as Necrons or Eldar. Not even close. Definitely a better close combat army than pure CSM or Daemons, though. And very fun, and every list is fluffy by default.

 

I enjoy running lots of bikers/hounds/maulerfiends with a pair of bloodthirsters and a smattering of cultists and spawn. Can't deal with everything but gets in the opponent's face pretty quickly and the blood tithe points really add up. As any chaos army, it's vulnerable to shooting and lacks assault transports other than the super expensive Land Raider. So far I haven't run a Daemonkin list with power armored infantry, but my collection is rather large so at some point I'll try to find a way to make them work. In general, they're the less impressive units in this book. Flesh Hounds are the real hero, to me. They can really move around, and generally inflict more damage in combat than a marine will. They have a 5++ so they have a chance to survive even the nastiest shooting. Volume of attacks will put them down, but that's why I use MSU. The ability to scout them up the board is very nice. It allows you to put multiple units in your enemy's face and either deal with them or face a guaranteed turn 2 charge. At 80 points for 5 dogs (10 wounds) I don't think you can do much better. Against Eldar, Necrons, and Tau I think Khorne Daemonkin struggle a bit (or have no chance, as the case may be if you're playing a particularly cheesy opponent). That goes for any CSM type army, though.

 

CSM are far more versatile than Daemonkin but lack the army-wide buffs that are pretty crucial to success. However, they have WAY more options: great psykers (Be'lakor, Daemon Princes, Sorcerers), decent shooting, and great flyers (Forge World). With a CSM-themed collection, you can run vanilla, Crimson Slaughter, or Black Legion with ease. Black Legion is the weakest of the three, by far. I'd only run them if you really like Abaddon and his cronies. It isn't that you won't have fun, but you'll end up spending so many points on Veterans of the Long War that over all your army will be smaller without seeing a benefit unless your main opponent is a type of Space Marine.

 

Crimson Slaughter is probably the "best" CSM force due to the relics. Not as beatstick killy as those in the CSM book, but contribute to survivability and getting extra special rules in addition to one that lets a sorcerer take Divination powers.

[GreyCrow]

I wouldn't put Daemonkin on the same power level as Necrons or Eldar. Not even close. Definitely a better close combat army than pure CSM or Daemons, though. And very fun, and every list is fluffy by default.

 

I enjoy running lots of bikers/hounds/maulerfiends with a pair of bloodthirsters and a smattering of cultists and spawn. Can't deal with everything but gets in the opponent's face pretty quickly and the blood tithe points really add up. As any chaos army, it's vulnerable to shooting and lacks assault transports other than the super expensive Land Raider. So far I haven't run a Daemonkin list with power armored infantry, but my collection is rather large so at some point I'll try to find a way to make them work. In general, they're the less impressive units in this book. Flesh Hounds are the real hero, to me. They can really move around, and generally inflict more damage in combat than a marine will. They have a 5++ so they have a chance to survive even the nastiest shooting. Volume of attacks will put them down, but that's why I use MSU. The ability to scout them up the board is very nice. It allows you to put multiple units in your enemy's face and either deal with them or face a guaranteed turn 2 charge. At 80 points for 5 dogs (10 wounds) I don't think you can do much better. Against Eldar, Necrons, and Tau I think Khorne Daemonkin struggle a bit (or have no chance, as the case may be if you're playing a particularly cheesy opponent). That goes for any CSM type army, though.

 

Well, I think the fact that the units are weaker than Necrons or Eldars is indeed one of the strengths of this book. The goal isn't to conquer or kill the enemy, Khorne cares not which blood is spilt as long as blood is spilt !

 

Like you said, the Gorepack is indeed a very good formation. Throwing the Hounds up front means they'll have to deal with them and the tithe points will rack up. If you go pure melee, then obviously you're going to want fast cheap units to throw forward. If I were to run one though, I wouldn't forgo some shooting capability though, with Forgefiends and Skullcannons.

Regarding Power Armoured Infantry, I think that they're really only worth it in Rhinos (or Maybe Land Raiders for the Berserkers because they'll be able to assault from it even if it is destroyed and being Fearless they won't get pinned). Rhinos give enough mobility to the lists that you won't be stuck too far should you need to assault and it's a 35 points blood tithe point ! In addition, throwing destroyer blades on it will drive the opponent to kill it if they didn't already.

 

Good point about Abaddon and the Black Legion, I forgot that they had to pay for VotLW all around :/

[Aspiringchaoschampion]

@Greycrow the VoTLW tax isnt too bad tbh

[Xenith]

I gather from what I have read that these aren't optimal choices. But I plan on playing my old time gaming buddy and we usually play beer and pretzels games but I would like something at least fairly relevant. What chaos codex or supplement should I use?

 

Perfect. Come to Chaos, we're the best!

 

Have a look at some of the armies.

 

Do you prefer any of the legions?

[Aspiringchaoschampion]

@sunzpear id say Chaos is a good choice in the codex alone we have the options for mono god mixed god no god armies while most of them are not competitive if your not looking for competiveness then this is for you. Generally the standard codex is kinda bland but we have 2 supplements Black Legion is the first which lets you take chosen as troops and whos artefacts are ok. Then you have Crimson slaughter which generally forces a more agressive style of play but whos artefacts are geared more towards defence mostly. Both books have different warlord traits too. Then we have IA13 and soege of vraks. IA13 gives us access to alot more vehichles and special upgrades for non daemon engines in the form of legacies of ruin. It also gives you access to renegades and heretics which is basically traitor guard. You then have the Vrakks list which is more Nurgle orientated and gives more new options including a special detachment for nirgle csm or renegades. We also have access to Daemon allies which provide us with more options. Then we have Khorne Daemonkin if your wanting to play momo khorne marines or use khorne daemons this is the book you should use. We also have access to 2 formations(Kranons Hellguard and Kharms Butcherhorde) and a couple of extra characters added via dataslate (belakor and cypher)

[Thousand Eyes]

Ah just choose whatever one looks good and go with it. But then again I am playing with Thousand Sons, so what do I know ;)

[the jeske]

Man your going to be so jaded in a year.

 

My advice. If your area uses FW, look in to it. Look in to it deep. Unlike other armies chaos does not have units which are normal for other factions outside of FW[not that other factions don't have access to stuff like wyverns/siccarians/etc, we just need FW for stuff they in core books].  We have no centurions, no decurions[in fact our formations are rather crappy], no real battle brothers [and those that started to ally in demons soon ended up droping csm].

 

As what we use. Well the codex is dated and not realy suited for 7th. Our "top" unit the helldrake got nerfed in to oblivion and a lot of other units lost a lot of utility due to mealstrom. But what you can do is play msu[lots of csm/pms in rhinos+spawn, that swarm objectives and hope you get a good hand and just clock enough point to win before your opponent tables you], bit boring to play[imo, boring or not is always a quesiton of taste] and with a high learning curve if you plan to play it outside of mirror matchs.

The other option is a invis bomb. you havefewer units  and a death star under invisible[only viable if your area plays a unhouse ruled invisibility], with 3 less often 4 HQs. you speed around the table hoping your opponent isn't playing msu[or can counter invisbility] or a flyer spam. It is a skew list. If you get invisibility and your match up isn't auto lose, you offten roll your opponent[offten the games goes one sided in your favor and not all opponents like that].

 

So state of chaos. Meh. Ah and before other jump on me for "but its in tournaments", I am not talking about tournaments. For chaos single units/set ups/list which are normal in friendly/casual/fluff/whatever games turn in to a game breaking problem.

 

 

So look up FW, decide which list you want to play and before you buy stuff look up loyalist armies with identical units. There is a good chance that the same type of list can be done with loyalist, offten with a much more fun game play. And there is nothing in the rules that could stop you from taking chaos models[or any you like] and use them with other faction rules.

[Trevak Dal]

Against Just Space Marines, Ubergrit is better than marks (in my experience) on Ctacs (Chaos Tacticals, or base Chaos Space Marines) so that said guys have bolters, bolt pistols and close combat weapons.

 

When I'm feeling extravagant, I throw in a Mark of Khorne-because it provides excellent offensive (Rage +2 attacks on the charge) and defensive (Counter attack) stacked with 2 attacks base to be 4 on the charge each, or 3 if charged.

 

I took out Wraithblades (the 6th ed Wraith guard that could have the power swords or power axe pseudo storm shield) when they charged me drowning them in attacks-and swept them-my Marines were all "HOO HOO HOO" like 300 or something (and also killed the avatar-with shooting mind you-when the avatar is on the table, you mag dump your entire army into him until he isn't on the table)

 

Under Daemonkin, Terminators can get kinda rediculous with the bonuses if you take a Bloodhost to get the ability to get +1 blood point per turn, and able to use 2 perks per turn (there really is only two perks...+1 attack and Feel No Pain-for your entire army that's Daemonkin).  

They get charged by a Bikemaster thinking 3 guys will be easy mop up.  That chapter is looking to replace another Chaptermaster-I'll trade 3 guys for two blood points and Slay the Warlord.

When I start to face the Rainbow of Loyalist Battlebrothers...I kinda hear Mad World playing as I put my CSMs on the table.

My friend's FootDar are pretty nasty in that he has 3-4 monstrous creatures (one of which is now a Gargantuan creature...) 3 of which are T8 and bolters are pretty much as useful as lasguns.  If I'm facing that army...I kinda borrow a page from 30k, and my Tau.  I take multiple detachments, but with minimum sized troops with Just bolters-maybe a special or two, but I take as many 8 man Havoc squads with 4 plasma guns (Avatar is immune to melta and I go for volume of shots) in rhinos I can, I ride up behind a Landraider, and FishofFury Rhino of Rage the intended target (Avatar, Wraith Lords, or wraith Knight) With EVERYTHING until said unit is dead.  Then I refocus.

[Aspiringchaoschampion]

The helldrake needed nerfing it was wayyyy too powerful

[GreyCrow]

The helldrake needed nerfing it was wayyyy too powerful

 

Indeed, the vector strike + flame the content was way too powerful :p

[Aspiringchaoschampion]

 

 

 

The helldrake needed nerfing it was wayyyy too powerful

Indeed, the vector strike + flame the content was way too powerful :p

one Of my friends let me proxy 2 skimmers as bale drakes they were way toooo powerful for my liking

[Iron Skull Mask]

I would pick up the main codex csm for a start. Then I'd strongly recommend not to listen too much to the nay-sayers on the internet. I more and more get the feeling that most of them don't actually play a lot at all.

 

The CSM book is not on par with the eldar or necron books, but we still have solid units and can compete. I myself won my last few games with a list based on csm troops, obliterators and sorcery (especially summoning). Other members still compete successfully at tournaments.

 

In the end it boils down to what your gaming group is about. Mine is rather laid back and people ask before they bring knights or forgeworld stuff to the table. We still play to win though. If your pals relish in tournament style min-maxing, then you're in for an up-hill battle. But if your gaming group is similar to mine than don't be afraid and go for csm if like the models or fluff.

[Aspiringchaoschampion]

I would pick up the main codex csm for a start. Then I'd strongly recommend not to listen too much to the nay-sayers on the internet. I more and more get the feeling that most of them don't actually play a lot at all.

 

The CSM book is not on par with the eldar or necron books, but we still have solid units and can compete. I myself won my last few games with a list based on csm troops, obliterators and sorcery (especially summoning). Other members still compete successfully at tournaments.

 

In the end it boils down to what your gaming group is about. Mine is rather laid back and people ask before they bring knights or forgeworld stuff to the table. We still play to win though. If your pals relish in tournament style min-maxing, then you're in for an up-hill battle. But if your gaming group is similar to mine than don't be afraid and go for csm if like the models or fluff.

Agreed 100% past 3 games ive had ive ran a mostly nurgle/unmarked force out of the black legion supplement my only loss was to a thousand sons army yup you heard that right a thousand sons army

[Iron Skull Mask]

Agreed 100% past 3 games ive had ive ran a mostly nurgle/unmarked force out of the black legion supplement my only loss was to a thousand sons army yup you heard that right a thousand sons army

 

 

Nasty AP3 bolters and psychic-phase, I guess.

[GreyCrow]

I would pick up the main codex csm for a start. Then I'd strongly recommend not to listen too much to the nay-sayers on the internet. I more and more get the feeling that most of them don't actually play a lot at all.

 

The CSM book is not on par with the eldar or necron books, but we still have solid units and can compete. I myself won my last few games with a list based on csm troops, obliterators and sorcery (especially summoning). Other members still compete successfully at tournaments.

 

In the end it boils down to what your gaming group is about. Mine is rather laid back and people ask before they bring knights or forgeworld stuff to the table. We still play to win though. If your pals relish in tournament style min-maxing, then you're in for an up-hill battle. But if your gaming group is similar to mine than don't be afraid and go for csm if like the models or fluff.

 

I do think the base Chaos Codex is a bit better than people give it credit for. Like you said it's not on the same level as the newer ones, but it can hold its own against the previous iterations.

 

You have much more flexibility in your force than with other Codexes, but it's harder to play because it's much less forgiving than the Loyalist codex (mostly due to the lack of ATSKNF). But if the force is carefully constructed and decently played, it can be a very good force imho.

[Aspiringchaoschampion]

 

 

Agreed 100% past 3 games ive had ive ran a mostly nurgle/unmarked force out of the black legion supplement my only loss was to a thousand sons army yup you heard that right a thousand sons army

 

Nasty AP3 bolters and psychic-phase, I guess.

Yup my T5 and fnp couldnt save me

[Trevak Dal]

Throw enough dice and stuff goes down man.  I've not failed to kill my friend's Wraith Guard and Avatar in that way in all the games I've played my Chaos against him.  It's just the bolters become useless against the t8 Monstrous and Gargantuan creatures he's got now.

Even though Jetbikes can be OP super awesome, I still got him a couple of boxes for his birthday because he's very unlikely to go all Heavy weapons on them.

[Aspiringchaoschampion]

As others have stated the current codex isnt bad while i loved the previous one as its the one i started 40k with this current one is a blast to play

[the jeske]

Agreed 100% past 3 games ive had ive ran a mostly nurgle/unmarked force out of the black legion supplement my only loss was to a thousand sons army yup you heard that right a thousand sons army

I feel like am living in a bizzar world right now. But tell us, how did that happen. because the only way for that to happe is you take 20 man squads and your opponent somehow getting in to rapid fire untouched and ahriman pulling off 3 shrieks in a single psy phase.

i loved the previous one

I have seen everything.

[Trevak Dal]

Agreed 100% past 3 games ive had ive ran a mostly nurgle/unmarked force out of the black legion supplement my only loss was to a thousand sons army yup you heard that right a thousand sons army

I feel like am living in a bizzar world right now. But tell us, how did that happen. because the only way for that to happe is you take 20 man squads and your opponent somehow getting in to rapid fire untouched and ahriman pulling off 3 shrieks in a single psy phase.

i loved the previous one

I have seen everything.

Or just really bad rolls-it's a dice game Jeske.