Imperial Fists 2000/2500/3000 lists

[h0U5e]

Hey all, looking at getting into 30K and I'd appreciate thoughts on the lists I would be building towards.

 

I'd like to have an army effective at these point levels using mostly the same set of models to keep costs down.

 

Imperial Fists - 2500

 

+ HQ (230pts) +

 

Sigismund (230pts) [Master of the Legion]

 

+ Elites (575pts) +

 

Apothecarion Detachment (70pts)

····Legion Apothecary [Artificer Armour, Augury Scanner, Power Sword]

 

Contemptor Dreadnought Talon (280pts)

····Legion Contemptor Dreadnought [Chainfist with inbuilt twin-linked Bolter, Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon with inbuilt twin-linked Bolter, Legion Dreadnought Drop Pod, 2x Graviton Gun]

 

Legion Rapier Weapons Battery (225pts)

····Legion Rapier Weapons Battery [Graviton Cannon]

····Legion Rapier Weapons Battery [Graviton Cannon]

····Legion Rapier Weapons Battery [Graviton Cannon]

 

+ Troops (860pts) +

 

Legion Tactical Squad (335pts) [19x Legion Tactical Space Marines, Legion Vexilla, Nuncio-Vox, Take an additional Chainsword or Combat Blade]

····Legion Tactical Sergeant [Artificer Armour, Melta Bombs, Power Weapon]

 

Templar Brethren (525pts) [4x Combat Shield, Melta Bombs, 4x Templar Brethren]

····Chapter Champion [Combat Shield, Power Fist]

····Land Raider Phobos [Armoured Ceramite, Auxiliary Drive, Dozer Blade, Frag Assault Launchers]

 

+ Heavy Support (835pts) +

 

Deredeo Pattern Dreadnought (185pts)

 

Legion Artillery Tank Squadron (465pts) [Legion Medusa, Legion Medusa, Legion Medusa]

 

Legion Sicaran Battle Tank (185pts) [Auxiliary Drive, Lascannons]

 

 

Imperial Fists - 2000

 

+ HQ (230pts) +

 

Sigismund (230pts) [Master of the Legion]

 

+ Elites (295pts) +

 

Apothecarion Detachment (70pts)

····Legion Apothecary [Artificer Armour, Augury Scanner, Power Sword]

 

Legion Rapier Weapons Battery (225pts)

····Legion Rapier Weapons Battery [Graviton Cannon]

····Legion Rapier Weapons Battery [Graviton Cannon]

····Legion Rapier Weapons Battery [Graviton Cannon]

 

+ Troops (795pts) +

 

Legion Tactical Squad (295pts) [19x Legion Tactical Space Marines, Legion Vexilla, Nuncio-Vox]

····Legion Tactical Sergeant [Artificer Armour, Melta Bombs, Power Weapon]

 

Templar Brethren (500pts) [4x Combat Shield, Melta Bombs, 4x Templar Brethren]

····Chapter Champion [Combat Shield, Power Fist]

····Land Raider Phobos [Auxiliary Drive, Frag Assault Launchers]

 

+ Heavy Support (680pts) +

 

Deredeo Pattern Dreadnought (185pts)

 

Legion Artillery Tank Squadron (310pts) [Legion Medusa, Legion Medusa]

 

Legion Sicaran Battle Tank (185pts) [Auxiliary Drive, Lascannons]

Let me know what you think. Thanks!

[Slips]

If youre using armored spearhead, everything has to be in a transport or be able to fit it one not taken as a dedicated.

 

Meaning, you cant have more bodies than you have transport capacity.

 

Furthermore, I think theres a restriction on being able to take flyers but, im at work right now so cant check my books.

 

Fix that main problem and we can go from there.

 

... Unless Im somehow mixing armored spearhead up with angels wrath.

[h0U5e]

Thanks for noticing that mistake! I'll edit my original post.

[The Nookie]

So the whirlwind scorpius...is it that good? Why two of them? Also, how are you getting the templars into combat?

[h0U5e]

Sure, I could drop the Tact squad Voxs, Apoth Power Swords and one Scorpius for a Sicaran. Would you say the AA/AT from the Sicaran would outweigh the added redundancy of 2-4 more S8 AP3 blasts?

 

The Templars are in a dedicated Phobos. 

[h0U5e]

Completely revamped the list; any criticism appreciated. 

[Triacom]

I'm going to be honest, I'm not sure where you're going with the 3000 point list.  Rogal Dorn doesn't really seem to apply that much of a bonus to your own troops to be worth using and he's not that great in a fight for his points cost (especially since he cannot charge after shooting).  Speaking of close combat you've only got one transport in a 3000 points game, almost everyone else you're up against is going to have some Sicaran Venator's in 3000+ points games (as well as possibly grav-guns and/or grav-cannons) so your transport has a decent chance of getting destroyed before it moves your troops (and possibly Dorn) to where they need to go to.  Dorn and Sigismund are very hard to kill in Close Combat, but they're not nearly as hard to kill when at range (especially if your opponent is packing a lot of Missile Launchers or Volkite Culverins).

You've given melta bombs to the tactical squads but no transport, so I don't get why they have Melta Bombs in that case.  Since they don't have a transport and you also have three Medusa's that makes me think they're going to be hanging back behind cover firing at the enemy, but you have no fortifications to speak of  that would warrant them hanging back (even a defence line would really help you out, with Dorn you could get a re-rollable 2+ cover save).  I also have to question the need for Lascannon Contemptor-Mortis Dreadnoughts when you already have Sicaran Venator's, which will take care of the high AV problem on their own and every flier in the book can be better handled by Contemptor Dreads with Assault Cannons (including the Superheavies), and then you also have the benefit of them being able to mow down infantry as well.  If you didn't have the Sicaran Venator's though then I'd say they're a decent Anit-Armour and Anti-Air idea (though the Venator's will always do Anti-Tank better).

 

The second list is a bit more focussed as a defensive list, though I don't get why you're stacking so much on a Forge Lord.  You're kitting him out both for ranged survival and for close combat, yet don't have any good long ranged weapons to help him out with defending his unit like a Conversion Beamer (though in that case I'm willing to bet you're going to have him helping the vehicles) and you didn't equip him with Rad Grenades or a Cortex Controller, which are the other big draws of a Forge Lord (especially when you give him decent Close Combat weapons) as Battle-Automata can really help you out, especially when you're trying to hold back the enemy.  Here too since you're mostly going to be bunkering down Dorn's going to help a bit more, especially when the enemy reaches you though again I don't see the need for the Lascannons on your Dreadnoughts and I'd really recommend a fortification.

 

For your 2000 point list you've scrapped some things I think would really benefit it like the Void Shield, it's really not a bad list, my main complaints again are that the Lascannons on the Dreadnoughts are a bit unnecessary yet again and since you're waiting for the enemy to come to you I'd once again recommend a fortification for some extra firepower (if you get an Icarus Lascannon you can definitely drop the Lascannons on the Dreadnoughts) and defence once the enemy gets a bit too close.

 

As your lists currently are I think you'll find the Medusa's and Sicaran Venators will be doing most of the work, and if your opponent doesn't bring any aircraft then the Dreadnoughts are not likely to make their points back.

[h0U5e]

I'm going to be honest, I'm not sure where you're going with the 3000 point list.  Rogal Dorn doesn't really seem to apply that much of a bonus to your own troops to be worth using and he's not that great in a fight for his points cost (especially since he cannot charge after shooting).  Speaking of close combat you've only got one transport in a 3000 points game, almost everyone else you're up against is going to have some Sicaran Venator's in 3000+ points games (as well as possibly grav-guns and/or grav-cannons) so your transport has a decent chance of getting destroyed before it moves your troops (and possibly Dorn) to where they need to go to.  Dorn and Sigismund are very hard to kill in Close Combat, but they're not nearly as hard to kill when at range (especially if your opponent is packing a lot of Missile Launchers or Volkite Culverins).

You've given melta bombs to the tactical squads but no transport, so I don't get why they have Melta Bombs in that case.  Since they don't have a transport and you also have three Medusa's that makes me think they're going to be hanging back behind cover firing at the enemy, but you have no fortifications to speak of  that would warrant them hanging back (even a defence line would really help you out, with Dorn you could get a re-rollable 2+ cover save).  I also have to question the need for Lascannon Contemptor-Mortis Dreadnoughts when you already have Sicaran Venator's, which will take care of the high AV problem on their own and every flier in the book can be better handled by Contemptor Dreads with Assault Cannons (including the Superheavies), and then you also have the benefit of them being able to mow down infantry as well.  If you didn't have the Sicaran Venator's though then I'd say they're a decent Anit-Armour and Anti-Air idea (though the Venator's will always do Anti-Tank better).

 

The second list is a bit more focussed as a defensive list, though I don't get why you're stacking so much on a Forge Lord.  You're kitting him out both for ranged survival and for close combat, yet don't have any good long ranged weapons to help him out with defending his unit like a Conversion Beamer (though in that case I'm willing to bet you're going to have him helping the vehicles) and you didn't equip him with Rad Grenades or a Cortex Controller, which are the other big draws of a Forge Lord (especially when you give him decent Close Combat weapons) as Battle-Automata can really help you out, especially when you're trying to hold back the enemy.  Here too since you're mostly going to be bunkering down Dorn's going to help a bit more, especially when the enemy reaches you though again I don't see the need for the Lascannons on your Dreadnoughts and I'd really recommend a fortification.

 

For your 2000 point list you've scrapped some things I think would really benefit it like the Void Shield, it's really not a bad list, my main complaints again are that the Lascannons on the Dreadnoughts are a bit unnecessary yet again and since you're waiting for the enemy to come to you I'd once again recommend a fortification for some extra firepower (if you get an Icarus Lascannon you can definitely drop the Lascannons on the Dreadnoughts) and defence once the enemy gets a bit too close.

 

As your lists currently are I think you'll find the Medusa's and Sicaran Venators will be doing most of the work, and if your opponent doesn't bring any aircraft then the Dreadnoughts are not likely to make their points back.

Thanks for the response, much appreciated. Interestingly enough, your exact points about the LC Contemptors and Dorn were also brought up by people on my local forum as weak points in my initial lists.

 

After a couple revisions came up with a 2000 and a 2500 list that look to be significantly more effective as a whole. Also I would have struggled to deal with Spartan rushes (among other things) in the old lists. Edited my OP once again.

[Triacom]

Woah, that's quite a switch, while I'm also very fond of Grav-cannons I'm just going to say it's not a great idea to rely on them to stop Spartan rushes (I like Venator's for that), however having said that, I think the Grav-cannons will still work out well for you because you can also back them up with the Medusa's to take down the Spartan's (given how massive the Spartan's are you'll miss very rarely).  As it is I don't really see that many problems with the list, just remember what I said about Sigismund getting Stranded.  A land raider like that is always a big target so it'll draw a lot of firepower, though in your case that's a good thing as it'll take pressure off of the Medusa's and the Deredero, who can easily make their points back (sadly there's not a good way to stop people from targeting a Sicaran, but it's sturdy and cheap enough to take the abuse).

[h0U5e]

Definitely agree that the Land Raider will be a priority target for my opponent. I'll use Sigismund and the Templar to assault whatever makes it to my lines and try to keep it in cover and out of danger.

 

The Medusas should be able to survive hiding outside of LOS and using the LOS from the tactical squad's vox to deal damage to whatever my AT fire pops.

 

Anything that can really hurt me outside of my 36" threat range will be hit with the drop podding Contemptor.

 

AA should be covered by the Deredeo and Sicaran.

 

Other than making sure I keep my important/fragile units alive to do their job, do you see any other things I will need to be wary of?

[Slips]

Definitely agree that the Land Raider will be a priority target for my opponent. I'll use Sigismund and the Templar to assault whatever makes it to my lines and try to keep it in cover and out of danger.

 

The Medusas should be able to survive hiding outside of LOS and using the LOS from the tactical squad's vox to deal damage to whatever my AT fire pops.

 

Anything that can really hurt me outside of my 36" threat range will be hit with the drop podding Contemptor.

 

AA should be covered by the Deredeo and Sicaran.

 

Other than making sure I keep my important/fragile units alive to do their job, do you see any other things I will need to be wary of?

Mainly: The low amount of Mobile units in your army. Unless you do not play Maelstrom Missions, this will hinder you more than anything since you'd be unable to move around the map rapidly enough to accomplish objectives with such a static list.

 

To aid in that, you could split the 20 man squad into 2 10mans in Rhinos. But Rhinos are Rhinos...

[Triacom]

 

Definitely agree that the Land Raider will be a priority target for my opponent. I'll use Sigismund and the Templar to assault whatever makes it to my lines and try to keep it in cover and out of danger.

 

The Medusas should be able to survive hiding outside of LOS and using the LOS from the tactical squad's vox to deal damage to whatever my AT fire pops.

 

Anything that can really hurt me outside of my 36" threat range will be hit with the drop podding Contemptor.

 

AA should be covered by the Deredeo and Sicaran.

 

Other than making sure I keep my important/fragile units alive to do their job, do you see any other things I will need to be wary of?

Mainly: The low amount of Mobile units in your army. Unless you do not play Maelstrom Missions, this will hinder you more than anything since you'd be unable to move around the map rapidly enough to accomplish objectives with such a static list.

 

To aid in that, you could split the 20 man squad into 2 10mans in Rhinos. But Rhinos are Rhinos...

 

 

I have to disagree, any enemy units running around trying to get to the objectives are going to be making themselves targets for the Medusa's, the Deredero, and the Sicaran.  10 man squads in 30K are not usually a good idea as you're paying a higher premium to get them as well, and footslogging troops should be able to get to close objectives just fine.

[Slips]

 

 

Definitely agree that the Land Raider will be a priority target for my opponent. I'll use Sigismund and the Templar to assault whatever makes it to my lines and try to keep it in cover and out of danger.

 

The Medusas should be able to survive hiding outside of LOS and using the LOS from the tactical squad's vox to deal damage to whatever my AT fire pops.

 

Anything that can really hurt me outside of my 36" threat range will be hit with the drop podding Contemptor.

 

AA should be covered by the Deredeo and Sicaran.

 

Other than making sure I keep my important/fragile units alive to do their job, do you see any other things I will need to be wary of?

Mainly: The low amount of Mobile units in your army. Unless you do not play Maelstrom Missions, this will hinder you more than anything since you'd be unable to move around the map rapidly enough to accomplish objectives with such a static list.

 

To aid in that, you could split the 20 man squad into 2 10mans in Rhinos. But Rhinos are Rhinos...

 

 

I have to disagree, any enemy units running around trying to get to the objectives are going to be making themselves targets for the Medusa's, the Deredero, and the Sicaran.  10 man squads in 30K are not usually a good idea as you're paying a higher premium to get them as well, and footslogging troops should be able to get to close objectives just fine.

 

Its catch 22 at this point. On the one hand, 10 Man Rhino Squads let you cap objectives faster thus accumulating more points faster meaning, unless you get tabled, you win the game since you have more points.

 

Also gives you a slight protective bubble around your troops to absorb some shots for them or Block Line of Sight. And Medusas, Deredeos and Sicarians shooting at Rhinos is usually a good thing since that means they aren't shooting at your shinier stuff.

 

On the other hand, 20 man blobs with apothecaries have more longevity vs 10 man rhino squads up to the point where you get into Typhon Territory which 2.5k usually is. S10 Ap1 Ignores Cover shot make a mockery of 20 man blobs whereas vs a Tac Squad in Rhino, only the Rhino Dies while the marines inside take an emergency Disembarkation.

 

Now, While I will usually advocate for More Larger Squads in general since thats the point/flavor of 30k, in this case, only having 2 Troops units at 2.5k seems rather limited regardless of One of them being a 20 man blob. All it takes is a Single Deredeo shooting its Ap3 Missiles at them and them Failing a Pinning check to render them pretty much useless.

 

Vs a 10 man Tac in Rhino means that you'll need to dedicate fire from at least 2 units to deal with them sufficiently.

 

Theres pros and cons to both but I think that in this situation in Particular, Rhino Tacs will be more useful. Also gives more LoS opportunities with Nuncio-Voxii for the Medusas and increases the 6" No Scatter zone they provide for the Podding Contemptor Too.

[Triacom]

It doesn't take much to wreck transports, unless your opponent is gearing up a large mechanized force Sicarans should be shooting the Rhino's because that's one of the things they excel at killing, then the blobs are out in the open for anything else to finish off (there's not much shinier things for them to target).

 

If it does bug you that much though then I suppose some points could be freed up by removing the Lascannons from the Sicaran, as they're usually redundant on them anyway (especially with both Graviton Cannons and Medusa's).  Too high Strength for low AV, too little shots for fliers, and the main gun doesn't have high enough Strength for the high AV that the cannons are suited for.