Homebrew rules?

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

So I was browsing 1d4chan, and I ran across the Harakoni Warhaws, which sounded to me like a brutal cross between Stormtroopers and Elysians.

 

This got me thinking about my army, and how I was trying to represent them on the table. 

 

So how brutal would it be to take the MT codex, add Sentinels (Scout/Armored/Drop) and the Vendetta, add the Combat drop rule and give the scions the option to deep strike in first turn, via combat drop, or infiltrate. Also make the Valkyrie a dedicated transport option, for the combat drop. 

 

For these purposes combat drop would be, half your Valks, drop sentinels, and troops, rounded up come in first turn.

 

Is that too cheesy? There's no AV14, and while all of the infantry would have Hotshots, the lists would be infantry heavy by necessity, with the vehicles being dedicated to supporting the infantry. 

 

This was just my idea for a Warhawks army. It wouldn't be any less of a glass cannon than the Stormtroopers already are.

 

What do y'all think?

[Altasmurf]

I think for the most part you are just best off using multiple detachment to approximate something close to what you are looking for. If you're just playing with you buddies it seems ok, if any thing a bit convoluted. But if you're headed to your local shop I'd probably stick to the rules as is and use your combined forces as you have been.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

That's what I was thinking I'd do. I just want to know if it seems too cheesy, I don't want these rules to be too nasty, my local gaming group is relatively new to the game, and I want the games to be fun.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Working within the existing ruleset to produce a themed result usually doesn't create anything too brutal.

 

Still, if I were playing against you, I'd personally be down for a game against a homebrew forcing mushing together Scions and Elysians.

 

Also, Forgeworld has Elysian D-99 as an army of elite drop troops. Don't remember much about what they're like or where their rules are, though - these things can be pretty fluid with Forgeworld.

[WarriorFish]

They may be official rules but that doesn't mean mixing them work within the existing armies/rules. Given the weaknesses of Elysian lists I think it'll work out ok though it may just come down to how well your opponent weathers the first turn. Give it a go and see how it works. If it's too good (or bad) you can always drop it :)

[CoffeeGrunt]

The Elysian list in the Taros Campaign has Storm Troopers in it, so you could probably use those integrated with the Air Cavalry setup.

 

I've been debating using Homebrew Rules for my Leman Russ Avenger kitbash. I'm going to mount the Avenger Gatling Cannon from the new Knight kit on it, just need to find the right points value and take off Rending. Idea is that it's a Monstrous Creature hunter with secondary anti-Infantry uses.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

They may be official rules but that doesn't mean mixing them work within the existing armies/rules. Given the weaknesses of Elysian lists I think it'll work out ok though it may just come down to how well your opponent weathers the first turn. Give it a go and see how it works. If it's too good (or bad) you can always drop it

Yeah, I didn't want to go making up my own rules or anything, basically it was an exercise in using existing rules to create the Army I want, since GW doesn't really support the Old regiments anymore. I think I'll codify it, write all the stuff down. All I really wanted was to take some stuff from the IG codex, add it into the Stormtrooper Codex, and sprinkle in the Elysian rules for flavor, and modify to taste. I mean I can always run my guys WSYWIG, using the appropriate codex.

I'll come back at this once I have written down all the special stuff.

Working within the existing ruleset to produce a themed result usually doesn't create anything too brutal.

Still, if I were playing against you, I'd personally be down for a game against a homebrew forcing mushing together Scions and Elysians.

Also, Forgeworld has Elysian D-99 as an army of elite drop troops. Don't remember much about what they're like or where their rules are, though - these things can be pretty fluid with Forgeworld.

Yeah, the problem with D-99 versus the old Harakoni Warhawks, is no army wide Hotshots/hellguns. I want an army that can take on Space Marines but still plays like Guard. This ruleset would be brutal against Tau, seeing as Tau have precious little 2+ armor saves, but there is a decent amount that can take 4++ saves, still that's points, and not terrible to deal with. So really TEQ armies will give me trouble, but that's why I'm taking so much plasma and melta.

Since my army is supposed to be elite mountain troops and commandos, I was thinking of also making everything BS4 across the board, troops, fliers, and Sentinels, because everyone in my army would be highly trained. I just would need to appropriately debuff my army, maybe a slight points adjustment to the sentinels for the BS upgrade? maybe 5pts more?

I was also thinking of moving the Armored sentinels from FA to HS, and maybe placing HWS as a standalone unit in HS as well. Like I said, I'll write it all down in a Homebrew Codex, maybe someone else will pick it up and use it.

[Altasmurf]

The fact you want to make every thing BS 4 would concern me, especially at 5 points more. Even a veteran guardsman is 20 % more for basically bs 4. A 40 point sentinel would have to be about 48 points. The better armed ones would be more. I'm not saying don't do it butyyou're trying a bit to much to have your cake and eat it too, and maybe a slice of pie on the side. To me it just seems with the ability to build armies now a days from so many sources you better off staying with in the rules provided. But give it a go and see what people think.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

You might be right Altasmurf, I'll play around with that to see what I can come up with.  I'll use that 20% benchmark for calculating points, to see what I get. I took the Drop Sentinels and moved them to Elites like the Elysians, Kept Scout Sentinels in FA, and made Armored Sentinels a HS choice, which making the Armored Sentinels HS will give me a good rounded list to take from. 

 

I'm also going to Homebrew an alpha strike unit, that will essentially take the place of the Forward sentries in the Elysian list. 5 man team with HS lasgun, HS Laspistol, Combat knife, a Stormtrooper statline, can take 2 special weapons, frag and krak grenades, and one use meltabombs. It'll be 95pts base, restricted to five men, have infiltrate, scout, and MTC. They'll be able to take camo gear. They won't be able to take orders, and must deploy by infiltrate. I'll keep toying with points, and rules to try and balance them.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

My experimental rules are here:

 

https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?cid=DD8B61CBEACD9043&resid=dd8b61cbeacd9043%21169879&app=Word

 

I hope the link works.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I'm making additions and little tweaks that should make them fun to play, while still giving them a little bit of a competitive edge. Things that give bonuses but nothing that lasts. 

 

It would make me really happy if a few people would give these rules some playtesting and give me feed back.

[Altasmurf]

To view the rules I have to log in and I don't have an account, could you post them in the homebrew section or here and I'd gladly comment

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I have them in a PDF, how can I post that?

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

THE BLACK DEVILS BRIGADE

 

All units are drawn from Codex:Astra Militarum, Points values, special rules, and unit upgrades are the same. Only changes from the base unit will be noted here. Note that Heirlooms of Conquest may not be taken with this army. Relics and Characters will be forthcoming.

 

Combat Drop: Half of the models with this rule that start the game in reserve, rounded up, may enter from reserve on the first turn.   

 

Hasty Fortifications: All infantry models that start the game deployed on the table gain +1 to their cover save if they have not moved. Additionally, if the unit did not move they must take normal Difficult terrain moves for the rest of the turn (no MTC)

 

We're supposed to be surrounded!: Any units that enter play from reserves by Deep Strike automatically pass any morale checks from taking casualties during their first turn on the table. 

 

HQ:

 

Company Command Squad: 85 Points

Deep Strike, Combat Drop

Unit composition: 1 Company Commander, 4 Stormtroopers

 

CommanderInfantry(Character)WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W2 I3 A2 Ld9 Sv4+

StormtrooperInfantryWS3 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld7 Sv4+

 

Wargear:

Carapace Armor

Hotshot Lasgun (stormtroopers)

Hotshot Laspistol (Commander)

Close Combat Weapon(Commander)

Command Squad may take:

Master of Ordinance                                                            20 points

Officer of the Fleet                                                              20 points

May take a Taurox Prime or Valkyrie as a dedicated transport

 

Lord Commissar:90 points

Deep Strike, Combat Drop

Wargear:

Carapace Armor

Bolt Pistol

Close Combat Weapon

May take items from the Melee Weapons list

May exchange Bolt pistol for Plasma Pistol for 15 points

 

TROOPS:

 

Stormtrooper Squad:70 points

Deep Strike, Move Through Cover, Combat Drop

Unit Composition: 1 Sergeant, 4 Stormtroopers

Commando:Infantry WS3 BS4 S3 T3 I3 W1 A1 Ld7 Sv 4+

Sergeant:Infantry(Character) WS3 BS4 S3 T3 I3 W1 A1 Ld8 Sv 4+

 

Wargear:

Carapace Armor

Hotshot Lasgun (Stormtrooper)

Hotshot Laspistol (Sergeant)

Close Combat Weapon(Sergeant)

Frag and Krak Grenades

 

Squad may add up to 5 more models for 12points per model

Sergeant may take any item from the melee weapons list

Sergeant may exchange his Hot Shot laspistol for the following:

Bolt Pistol free

Plasma Pistol 15 points

up to 2 stormtroopers may exchange Hotshot lasgun for special weapon

If the squad numbers 10 men, 2 additional stormtroopers may take special weapons

 

ELITES:

 

Drop Sentinel Squadron:66 points

Deep Strike, Combat Drop, Move Through Cover

WS3 BS4 S5 F10 S10 R10

May take items from the vehicle upgrade list

May exchange Heavy bolter for:

Heavy FlamerFree

MultiMelta15 points

May include 2 additional Drop Sentinels for 66points per model

 

 

Commando Team:100 points

Infiltrate, Scout, Move through Cover

Unit Composition: 1 Sergeant, 4 Commandos

Commando:Infantry WS3 BS4 S3 T3 I3 W1 A1 Ld7 Sv 4+

Sergeant:Infantry(Character) WS3 BS4 S3 T3 I3 W1 A1 Ld8 Sv 4+

 

Wargear:

Camo Gear

Carapace Armor

Hotshot Lasgun

Hotshot Laspistol

Combat Knife (CCW)

Satchel Charges

Frag and Krak Grenades

 

Up to 2 commandos may exchange their Hotshot Lasgun for a Special Weapon

Sergeant may take any item from the melee weapons list

Sergeant may exchange his Hot Shot laspistol for the following:

Bolt Pistol free

Plasma Pistol 15 points

 

 

Satchel Charge: Each model carries 1 satchel charge with the following profile

Range Melee/12” S8 AP1 Assault 1, Armorbane, one use

Commando Tactics: Commando teams operate out ahead of the main force and do so autonomously, as such Commandos cannot take orders, and must deploy by infiltrate.

 

FAST ATTACK:

 

Imperial Navy Valkyrie Squadron:120 points

Combat Drop

BS4 F12 S12 R10 HP3 Flyer, Hover transport

May take Heavy bolter sponsons for 10 points

May exchange Hellstrike missiles for Multiple rocket pods for 30 points

May exchange multilaser for lascannon for 10 points

May add up to 2 more Valkyries for 120 points each

 

Imperial Navy Vendetta Squadron:      156 points

BS4 F12 S12 R10 HP3 Flyer, Hover, Transport

May take Heavy Bolter sponsons for 10 points

May add up to 2 move Vendettas at 156 points each

 

Taurox Prime:                         80 points

BS4 F11 S10 R10 HP3 Vehicle (fast, transport)

May exchange Taurox battle cannon for:

Taurox Gatling Cannon       10 points

Taurox Missile Launcher     20 points

May exchange Twin linked Hotshot Volley Guns for:

Autocannons                        free

May take items from the vehicle upgrade list

 

Scout Sentinel Squadron: 42 points

Move through Cover,Scout

WS3 BS4 S5 F10 S10 R10

May exchange Multilaser for:

Autocannon                    5 points

Heavy Flamer                Free

Lascannon                     10 points

Missile Launcher           5 points

May include up to 2 more sentinels at 42 points per model

May take items from the Vehicle upgrade list

 

HEAVY SUPPORT:

 

Armored Sentinel Squadron:48 points

 

WS3 BS4 S5 F10 S10 R10

May exchange Multilaser for:

Autocannon                  5 points

Heavy Flamer               Free

Lascannon                    10 points

Missile Launcher           5 points

Plasma Cannon            10 points

 

May include up to 2 more sentinels at 48 points per model

May take items from the Vehicle upgrade list

 

 

 

 

 

Heavy Weapons Teams:                 65 points

Deep Strike, Combat Drop

Infantry WS3 BS4 S3 T3 W2 A1 I3 Ld7 Sv4+ 

May take:

Autocannon Team10 points

Flakk Missile Launcher Team         25 points

Heavy Bolter Team                          10 points

Lascannon Team                              20 points

Missile Launcher Team                   15 points

Mortar Team                                     5 points

 

 

These are still being modified, as I'm brainstorming. I have a few additional rules I'm thinking up to try and balance them out.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I did some tweaking, I based the kit and points off the old 5th ed Guard codex stormtroopers. I was thinking about making a platoon version that would be standard scions, so I can get more bodies on the table. Unfortunately this is shaping up to be a very expensive army (points and model wise).

[nismogrendel]

That sounds really fun, I like the BS4 all over the place.  When you get this fleshed out, I might try to use it for the casual games my friend and I play.  Any plans for rough rider rules in this brigade?

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I did want to include rough riders, and probably will once I figure out how I want to model them. I was thinking of using WW2 german motorcycle troops modded with lances, but I was also thinking about ATV (quadbike) troops, like we used in the early part of the Invasion of Afghanistan. 

 

I'm still making adjustments. Since it's an all stormtrooper army, and thus elite, it's kinda hard to pin down what their wargear should be and what the points cost should be.

 

I'm open to suggestions for inclusions, but bear in mind the whole point is to have a hard hitting, fast moving, unit, so that means no heavy vehicles. I'm not opposed to homebrewing some vehicle variants though, like maybe a taurox prime variant that trades it's troop capacity for a harder hitting weapon and some better armor protection.

 

If any section needs help it's got to be the elites, and heavy support. A fast vehicle with AV11 F/S and 3HP with a battlecannon or vanquisher cannon would be good, and taken in squadrons of three for heavy support, also maybe give it the ability to fire barrage, and for elites maybe a decent sniper unit. 

 

I'll work on it to see what I can come up with.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Here is the test beta:

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/files/file/455-black-devils-army-list/

 

Feel free to use and test. I'll be testing out most of the stuff, next weekend, I'm lacking some of the items in the list, so hopefully y'all can test them out. 

[Altasmurf]

I read over everything and figured I'd just give you my impressions. It feels a bit like you cherry picking units and rules you want, which I understand is kind of the point but it is allowing you to field from essentially 3 different codexes with no real drawbacks.

 

A few specific things

 

1. Your vendetta and valkryie prices should be based on codex astra militarium.

 

2. Your commandos little satchel charge is kind of clunky and a little broken, a better option would be to allow the special weapon swaps to be demo charges as well. That way you use existing rules, which people are more willing to play against.

 

3. Your two new special rules. Both are awkward and wordy. Try to use USRs to represent what you want.

 

Just a few initial thoughts hope they help.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Right now, I'm figuring out how to run my units within existing rules, before I make any more updates, so that way I can figure out how to run them. To be appropriately Imperial Guard, they need a platoon type unit, but I just don't know how that should be done. 

 

I also like some of the stuff 5th ed stormtroopers had, like a CCW and a pistol. As for the satchel charge, I swapped that out for melta bombs, since they do what I imagined, and there's already rules for them. 

 

I'm revising the USR's so that they reflect what I want. I have created a few specialist units under elites so that the army is more flexible, but that need some revision too. It'll be some time before I'm ready to playtest these rules. I'm going to remove the drop sentinels, leaving just the Scout and Armored varieties. I'm also considering making the heavy weapons teams a platoon, with the option to take a command squad and expand. 

 

I'll do some revision on points for a lot of things, I may decide to drop the BS4 on things that aren't stormies, or give them something that allows them to fire at BS4, like enhanced targeting or strafing run. 

 

Or I'll just leave that off. Like I said this is going to be some time before I feel it's ready to be fielded.