Need some advice on starting.

[Kona]

I've decided to get back into tabletop. It's been 16 years since I last played. I mostly played Warhammer, had a High Elf army. I've always been a defensive player. Sit back from afar, widdle the enemy down, let the battle come to me, then strike with my better units where it would be most effective. With 40k being the most popular, its what I want to play.

 

From reading multiple forums Tau seem to fit my playstyle, but I'm not a fan of the models. Aesthetics are whats most important to me, second being somewhat competitive. I first decieded I'd play AM/IG, but the models I want seemed to be getting phased out. I like Steel Legion but dont want to start an army if I cant continue to buy them. The Krieg are an option from Warforged, but they seem a little pricy for me to start there. I like all the IG tanks, the MT Scions, the Valks aircraft, Imperial Knights, and Space Marines (especially bikes and Dark Angels). The long term plan would be a heavy Tank IG army, with air support, and IKs.

 

I have have a gerneral idea of the army I want to play, but I'd like to get a some what competitive army to start thats 1850 pts (its what they mostly play at my local store). So I either want an IK army with IG, SM, or MT support; or an IG, SM, or MT army with IK support. And with that I'd like the armies to be focused on vechicles tank, mobile artillery, planes, and bikes. I'd appreciate any advice on were to start, how some of those suggested armies play, and if they are viable.

 

I know its a lot of text, hope its not to vague, and I hope this is the right forum. Thanks for any help.

[Jolemai]

Welcome to Bolter and Chainsword

It's probably better to use Astra Militarum as your main focus, with an Imperial Knight and/or Militarum Tempestus to supplement it. Their forum is over here but other than that, I can't really help :(

[Kona]

Double post.

[Teetengee]

You may want to also consider adding in some admech support elements, but from your playstyle, I would suggest ig tanks+knights.

[Jacinda]

Welcome to the B&C, Kona.  

 

Since this is a human-centric forum I'll just ignore the xenos remarks ....

 

When asking about what's competitive, it is really about "what's competitive this month."  I won't get into it all, but over the past year, the top competitive armies have changed several times.  The short version is the current edition tends to favor shooting armies but don't go straight gunline or the fast assault armies will chew your army.

 

The new Astrua Militarum (a.k.a. Imperial Guard, feel free to use either term) do best with a combined arms approach.  Tanks and artty supported by a platoon or conscripts make a solid base.  Knights are good to have in any Imperial army and are just now getting new models and rules.  Basically the army you described but with a couple of hundred points in infantry is a solid and viable army.  It is a reliable middle of the road list.  Considering the constant flux as new codices come out for 7th this is not a bad thing.

 

If you want bikes, you will want White Scars from Codex: Space Marines.  However Imperial Knights and White Scars are not going to be a sit back and shoot kind of build.  I would take a few Land Speeders and Land Speed Storms along with bikes, a couple of knights and a Stormraven full of terminators for a hghly mobile assault force that does not sacrifice ranged power either. But from the origianl post I don't think this is how you like to play.

 

I don't have books, Army Builder or Battle Scribe with me so this is just off the top of my head ...

 

Knights:

- Imperial Knight Crusader with Carapice Gattling cannon

 

Guard:

- HQ: Pask (Leman Russ Punisher) and mate (LR Exterminator) 

- HQ: Company Command Squad with Chimera

- Troop: Infantry Platoon (2 squads with autocannons; command in a chimera)

- Troop: Vet Squad with Chimera 

- Troop: Vet Squad with Chimera 

- Fast  Attack:  Vendetta

- Heavy Support: Wyvern Squadron (2)

 

That should be about 1850 points once you add plasma guns, grenade launchers and/or flamers to the infantry command squads.  It won't have the mobility to control the Malstorm of War missions but it will certainly play the stand back and fire game. 

[WarriorFish]

Welcome to the Guard and B&C Kona, you're in the right place :) Guard tanks are good - strong and powerful and Scions are a bit pricey but capable soldiers. Knights go well with any army, the only thing missing would be bikes but you could ally in some Marines for that if you really wanted some. Guard also have the best artillery pieces and the Valkyrie and Vendetta are good aircraft that can provide some excellent mobility and support.

 

How they play very much depends on the focus you'd like to take. I'm assuming it's with a primary Guard force, with tanks and Scions? You can get Scions as part of a Guard army (Elites) or take them as allies for their mini-dex.

[Kona]

I don't need everything I mentioned, yet. I was more wondering out of IG (tank/artillery focused, maybe with flyers), SM (bike focused), or MT (flyer focused); what pairs best with IK and what fits my mentioned playstyle (playstyle can be changed because you have to adapt). And out of those would it be better to have IK as the primary with the allie I select or vice versa, one of the three armies above with IK allies. It does seem like IG with IK allies or IK with IG allies, but I'll have to get the Krieg models or hurry up and buy some Steel Legion models. Is there any info on GW selling plastic Steel Legion models in a box, like the Cadian Defense Force?

 

Thanks for the replys.

[steellegionnaire85]

I don't think steel legion will ever come out in plastics. I would cry if they did. I have a vast collection of them it's taken years and I am almost completely done. I started of when they came out and now have almost three hundred of them. They are beautiful models but they come with a price.

[Teetengee]

if you want a reliable source, go krieg,
also the primary secondary thing is going to be mostly pointless since knights work on their own charts anyways.

[Kona]

Thanks, this is really helpful. My playstlye is not set in stone, its just how I played. And since it seems a lot of games are objective based I may need to change. Out of what I listed, what army will give the best flexibility for different battle types.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Welcome Kona. I wish you luck on building your army. Imperial Knights are a powerful addition to any Imperial Guard force. I use one to bolster my forces. Think about how you want your guard to play. I wouldn't start out with the knight, get your guard forces first.

[Kona]

Welcome Kona. I wish you luck on building your army. Imperial Knights are a powerful addition to any Imperial Guard force. I use one to bolster my forces. Think about how you want your guard to play. I wouldn't start out with the knight, get your guard forces first.

If you don't mind me asking, what does your comp look like? And what are your tactics? My sit back approach doesn't seem like its the best way to go since there are different game types. That's how I played because it was mostly who can destroy each others army first.

 

It looks like I'm going to go for forgeworld Krieg models, unless I can find some helmets I like for the cadians. Forgeworld seems to have its own codex's, how to they standup compared to the GW 7th edition?

 

How is it working with resin? How durable are the models? How is the overall experience buying models from eBay?

[WarriorFish]

The Death Korps do quite well with their army lists I think, though they do place in certain ways. Nothing to stop you using the great models for any other Guard list though and there are many different third part heads you could use with the Cadians, do you have a particular theme or idea in mind?

 

Guard can sit back and shoot quite well especially if you go artillery (Krieg in particular can do good arty) but 7th has a strong lean to mobility so you'll need to add that somehow. Even if it's just a line of infantry advancing relentlessly!

[Kona]

The Death Korps do quite well with their army lists I think, though they do place in certain ways. Nothing to stop you using the great models for any other Guard list though and there are many different third part heads you could use with the Cadians, do you have a particular theme or idea in mind?

 

Guard can sit back and shoot quite well especially if you go artillery (Krieg in particular can do good arty) but 7th has a strong lean to mobility so you'll need to add that somehow. Even if it's just a line of infantry advancing relentlessly!

I really like great coats and gas masks. But I do like the cadian full mask from forgeworld or the old kasrkin models.

 

If mobility is the name of the game than that's what I'll have to do. I just want to do it with some sweet IG models, vehicles, and a IK. So in that case, I need a base army that works and i can field and than after I get a feel for the game I can add to it. So something like a tank command squad, some artillery, some vets in some chimeras, a valk, and either some more tanks or an IK.

[WarriorFish]

The full Cadian mask is cool, I make use of them to give some variety and they're good for Veterans too :)

 

For mobility don't forget that you can attain some through numbers as an opponent will struggle to prevent all your squads moving up if you've enough of them. With an order you can also make them run better and let's not forget the old stalwart of mounting them in a Chimera. That gives you some mobility and some capable shooting as well as getting Vets into precious special weapon range all the quicker :tu:

[march10k]

"sit back and shoot" is an entirely viable tactic, just as long as you don't deny yourself the ability to do something different by building an army that can only sit back and shoot.  Guard is a firepower army...but in the current environment, you need mobility, as well.

 

Nobody outshoots the guard, and a SIGAFH (shooty imperial guard army from hell) is a wonder to behold.  So how do you avoid being static?  Chimeras.  They're dirt cheap for AV12 with two heavy weapons.  And the squad inside can fire two models from the hatch (at a separate target from the vehicle, if you want).  125 points gets you an infantry squad with an autocannon...that's 8 heavy weapons shots from behind AV12, and at 125 points, you can afford a damned large number of them.  I've been known to field nine chimeras containing six infantry squads with nothing but autocannons, two platoon command squads with dual melta, and one company command squad with three plasmas.  That left plenty of points for four tanks and a hellhound or some sentinels.  That's what you call a stupid amount of shooting (as long as you sit still...moving those chimeras KILLS your heavy weapons shooting!) coupled with the ability to reposition at need.  Never move 6" and shoot, you'll be snap-shotting most of your stuff...instead, sit and shoot everything at full BS or sacrifice all the shooting and move 18".  The command chimeras all had hull heavy flamers, the other six had hull heavy bolters.  The command chimeras would certainly not think twice about moving 6" and shooting, since that allows full BS for special weapons (also, with multilaser/heavy flamer, if you're moving to get the heavy flamer in range, that's well worth the hit to accuracy on the multilaser, and if you're out of heavy flamer range anyway, then you gain nothing by sitting still!)

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

 

Welcome Kona. I wish you luck on building your army. Imperial Knights are a powerful addition to any Imperial Guard force. I use one to bolster my forces. Think about how you want your guard to play. I wouldn't start out with the knight, get your guard forces first.

If you don't mind me asking, what does your comp look like? And what are your tactics? My sit back approach doesn't seem like its the best way to go since there are different game types. That's how I played because it was mostly who can destroy each others army first.

 

It looks like I'm going to go for forgeworld Krieg models, unless I can find some helmets I like for the cadians. Forgeworld seems to have its own codex's, how to they standup compared to the GW 7th edition?

 

How is it working with resin? How durable are the models? How is the overall experience buying models from eBay?

 

I play very aggressively, because I play Stormtroopers. My knight sits back and provides long range fire support, while my Stormtroopers move ahead and capture objectives. The old standard purge the alien type games still fly, but objective games require a little more of a strategic approach, especially with the Maelstrom missions, where the objectives change every turn. In those cases, mobility is key. 

 

Forgeworld resin is nice and easy to work with, almost like the GW plastic. It's leagues better than GW's Finecast. Now third party can be fun to work with, to make an army the way you want.

 

Check out Dreamforge-games, they have some cool looking Krieg-ish storm troopers, there are a few others, but the names escape me right now, and I can't seem to find the one I'm looking for. 

 

As for my tactics, like I said, I play  aggressively. I use Taurox primes to move my Stormtroopers and Vets around, while I use air support to hammer my opponent as my troops advance. I don't use a lot of armored vehicles (yet), but I have plans in the works to build that up. I'm used to playing Space Marines, so the Stormtroopers were a good transition. As for Forgeworld rules, some are a bit dated, but they work well in 7th. I use a Primary Combined Arms Detachment of Stormtroopers, backed up by an allied detachment of Regular AM vets mounted in an FA Taurox Prime (from my primary det) with a 2 unit Squadron of Armored Sentinels with Plasma Cannons. This is further backed up by an Allied Detachment of Elysians which are bringing the air support, made up of a Lord Commissar, and a squad of Vets in a Valkyrie, with a Vendetta wingman. All up it comes to about 1750-1850 points depending, I can take less and the knight, or I can take the Knight and boost the points up to 2100 ish. If I need more I have Dark Angels that I can ally in for some ravenwing shenanigans. 

 

I use deep strike to my advantage and put troops where I need them, usually on objectives. 

[Kona]

Thanks for all the help, everyone has been really helpful. I have a general idea, so I'll be working on a list. I'll be submitting it when I'm done.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I look forward to seeing what you come up with. As always we're here to help. 

[WarriorFish]

Yeah, plus don't forget we want to see models too :tu:

[SW1]

You can't go wrong with painting 25 guard up as you can use them as an infantry platoon or command squad and 2 vet squads. From there you can go tank heavy with 3 chimeras and filling up your heavy support and fast attack with tanks. Or if you find you like the troops add in special and heavy weapon squads.

 

But the first thing to paint is those 25 men!!!

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Indeed. Whenever a new player asks me where to start, I always tell them to start with 2 troops choices, and an HQ. Usually I refer them to the Battleforce boxes, but those have started getting either expensive, or going away. You can't really go wrong with a basic Combined Arms Detachment. It's enough  to get you playing the game, and learning the rules, and seeing how you play, so you know where to go next. It also helps to play against the same army, so you learn your stats better. 

[Ming]

I'd have to agree - and start at mapping out a 1500 point force...it is less daunting, and then you can decide based on experience what to add for the next 350...or more...might be as easy as adding another Knight.

 

Also - if you go to e-bay or ask around, you may be able to buy box-quantities of Krieg (or the other IG not Cadian).  

 

I'd caution on Jacinda's list above...watched a battle report for a similar list at Miniwargaming.com this week (vs Necrons) and it went badly - in a large part due to player skill, but still a cautionary tale.  

 

Kona - welcome back to the game! In the new style of formations and detachments, you can, frankly, go crazy with all the choices! Just choose somewhere to start and build up from there!   

[WarriorFish]

There are far too many variables to consider to discount a list on a single game, even more so when you say player skill was involved!

 

When in doubt add more Guardsmen to your army. Or Leman Russ tanks ;)

[march10k]

MOAR TANKSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!