Does anyone use a Lord Commissar effectively?

[Pudelhund]

For fluffy reasons, I'm thinking of taking a Lord Commissar as an HQ choice alongside a Tank Commander.

 

1) In a balanced or infantry-heavy army, I see the Lord Commissar as fighting in a squad with psykers and close combat specialists like a kitted command squad, veterans, or blob.  If I just wanted the leadership buffs, it would make more sense to just take a regular commissar.  However, kitted with the pricey combat gear, is he too expensive and simultaneously inferior to Yarrick to be worth taking?

 

2) Is there any reason at all to take him in a mechanized army?  I've been thinking of taking him in a Chimera attached to a Platoon Command Squad with the officer kitted for close combat plus flamers and psykers as a counter-drop-pod group.  Does that sound stupid or inefficient?  I feel like with the heirloom upgrades and re-rolling wounds with the psykers, he could be formidable in such a group against Blood Angels or Grey Knights.

 

Thanks in advance,

Pudelhund

[Father Mehman]

He's a good HQ unit if you don't want to take a Company Command Squad. I believe in one of Forge World's publications a Commissar can have a tank of his own. I don't know if he can be upgraded to a Lord Commissar or not. It would be worth taking a look into if you are inclined to field him without an entourage.

[Pudelhund]

I already have Pask as an HQ choice, so I don't need another one, which is another reason to just get a regular commissar I suppose.  Kitting out a Lord Commissar looks so awesome though in an army defined by nameless masses.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I take a lord commissar in my Elysian Allied Detachment. He's useful, as a cheap HQ, to stick in a vet squad to give them a higher leadership to test on, as well as giving them a close combat character to help them out. Keep him cheap and cheerful and he'll serve you well.

 

Like I said, I use him for an allied detachment, where all he does is pay the HQ tax. Elysian Lord Commissars are 80 points, because they have deep strike, and can take melta bombs and a tracking beacon, He's about 110 points all told, carapace armor, plasma pistol and power sword. The command squad has more to offer, sure, but when you just need a cheap HQ to get the job done, he works. That and the regular commissar doesn't occupy an FOC slot.

[WarriorFish]

The Lord Commissar is separate to the tank command one, he was created after the FW lists after all. He's not a bad choice if you don't want a particular HQ use, which usually means "don't want/need a CCS" but arguably he doesn't do much more than a standard commissar which is annoying. GW definitely should have addressed him better, it's unfortunate that his best use is often filling the HQ tax as Ulrik says... cheap and cheerful is the best way.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Sadly CC Guard units don't really work - anything S6 will splat him and with a gang of T3 I3 WS3 buddies, they're hitting last at a real disadvantage. I find that kitting out for CC just results in a more expensive dead squad, especially Command Squads where any vaguely competent opponent can wipe them out as they're just five T3 men.

 

Additionally, putting him with Psykers is going to have the Psyker dead if they roll a Perils result, which is pretty common with the new system. I dunno, I just personally feel that kitting out Commanders or Commissars for CC is just wasted points, as they can't beat anything even when equipped, and the points cost of a Power Weapon is another Plasma Gun or Missile Launcher somewhere else.

[SW1]

Hmmm ... They look cool, so will be included in my army. Effectiveness ... ?

[Pudelhund]

As I build my first list, I am finding it increasingly frustrating how unbalanced our codex is.  So many must-takes and must-not-takes.  I really wanted to field a Lord Commissar, but I am also playing a somewhat competitive group.  I guess he'll stay on the shelf.

[CoffeeGrunt]

If you play in a competitive group with tough lists, then this Codex will be tough to run. I personally play in a much more laid back meta, and I'm pretty okay with losing games a lot, so I'm fine with how the Guard play. It's the army and the playstyle that keep me playing more than anything else. :)

[WarriorFish]

The Guard codex is solid but middle tier in the current game. We have plenty of options and viable units so you won't find trouble competing the thing we're lacking is a clear powerful unit (or build) that can stand up to most foes. Arguably this is a sign of good codex design and the issue is with other codices that inflict such mistakes on the meta.

So it depends on what you mean by competitive. If it's just people playing to win then it shouldn't be an issue; perhaps less so if it's tourney approaches. 40k is a social game so much depends on your opponents either way but even against the odds you don't need to compromise yourself. If you want to take a Lord Commissar then that's all the reaon you need!

Just remember the tenets of numbers and fire power as that's the strength of the Guard - "boys before toys". Keep them in mind and you will do fine - and go for the objectives! There's plenty of experience here to help you if you have any questions :)

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I don't like to run a commissar in my primary detachment, because I play stormtroopers, and it just doesn't seem to fit with the way an elite army would work. I don't know maybe it's because I'm an American and I just can't get my head around the Soviet Russian "Not a single step back" mentality. An elite unit would be using hit and run tactics, setting up ambushes, and probing enemy defenses, all of which tend to require giving up ground for an advantageous position, as we say in judo, "Position before submission". 

 

Anyway, since I do play smaller more elite armies, the commissar can actually do more harm than good, since he has the potential to kill my own guys, which compared to most other guard armies at 2000 points, are something I have relatively few of (I have 56 infantry models, and 6 vehicles). The good news is the Lord Commissar is Ld10, so there's less chance that whatever squad he's attached to will break.

 

Downside, he doesn't have the Voice of Command rule, so no orders. 

[Malus Trux]

I run a Krieg Commissar with carapace & a fist (only difference is cheaper fist) and he does fine in combat but the key is he can't be singled out or he will fall. Add him in some ogryn or ally in some moderate CC threat & mop up after. Of what you suggested I would recommend the blob squad. Plenty of wounds & a sarge or two to accept challenges.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Truthfully, guard in close combat is a bad thing. By all means kit the commissar for close combat but hope that no one get close enough for him to work. Commissars are a good addition for high leadership. I just included basic Commissars in the Homebrew rules I'm making, though I doubt I'll ever use them...

[Rommel44]

I take one mainly because in my case running a Militarum Tempestus army, he is the only IC in our book with 3x wounds and a invulnerable save, as well as being LD10, which has been a good thing to have to guarantee getting orders off.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Don't orders test of the Officer's leadership? Commissars don't have Voice of Command, so they can't give orders. I think I understand how you make that work, put the commissar in the command squad, and issue orders. I guess I still don't quite understand how orders work.

[Father Mehman]

I take one mainly because in my case running a Militarum Tempestus army, he is the only IC in our book with 3x wounds and a invulnerable save, as well as being LD10, which has been a good thing to have to guarantee getting orders off.

 

How do you mean? I mean, what does he have to do with orders?

[CoffeeGrunt]

Orders go off the Leadership of the squad being Ordered. So boosting their Ld is a real bonus.

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

Truthfully, guard in close combat is a bad thing. By all means kit the commissar for close combat but hope that no one get close enough for him to work. Commissars are a good addition for high leadership. I just included basic Commissars in the Homebrew rules I'm making, though I doubt I'll ever use them...

 

Depends on the Guard, maybe. I found my Krieg platoon squads (who can't even blob up) to be pretty decent in hand-to-hand. While its true the Krieg orders and WS4 contribute, regular AM have the ability ability to blob-up and bring commissars/priests (Krieg don't have priests and their commissars can only go in command squads) so I don't know that it makes Krieg that much better than regular Guard. You just have to be willing to think outside the box, fix bayonets, and charge.

 

They will get mulched by dedicated hand-to-hand units, but tactical space marines, chaos marines, even assault marines and raptors, they can give as good as they get or better. One Krieg platoon squad and a platoon command squad totally owned a khorne-marked chaos marine squad in the last tournament I attended. Even against Ork Meganobs they slowly chipped away in my experience while tying those meganobs up with stuff that's a lot cheaper.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Nico,

 

I wasn't saying that Guard can't do well in close combat, and they can definitely hold their own against shooty units, but CC is not where Guard shines or wants to be. Ideally we want to keep our units out of close combat, so they can shoot stuff. 

 

As I build my first list, I am finding it increasingly frustrating how unbalanced our codex is.  So many must-takes and must-not-takes.  I really wanted to field a Lord Commissar, but I am also playing a somewhat competitive group.  I guess he'll stay on the shelf.

 

The Guard Codex is actually very balanced. We don't really have anything that qualifies as a death star unit like you see in most of the space marine armies. Granted Tau, Necrons, and most Space Marines have more than one death star quality unit, guard really doesn't have that, we rely on unit synergy, and army composition to really build good lists.

[Altasmurf]

CoffeeGrunt is right orders are on a squads leadership, so if a Lord commissar is in a squad, that squad will use hi Ld 10 to test for orders. To be honest if the Lord's Ld bubble worked for orders he might be a bit better, but for now it just seems like you're better of with a squad of 5 basic scions.

[Bionicman]

Truthfully, guard in close combat is a bad thing. By all means kit the commissar for close combat but hope that no one get close enough for him to work. Commissars are a good addition for high leadership. I just included basic Commissars in the Homebrew rules I'm making, though I doubt I'll ever use them...

While this holds true of 90% of the guard I think CC is exactly where IS and conscripts want to be. They are much more durable in close combat as templates can't harm them, they mostly have their saves and they can tarpit better than they kill with their flashlights.

 

Lord Commisar - the only usage I see in him is leading a conscript blob together with a priest. Why?

Because he adds power weapons and good WS to the conscripts and fullfills a role sergeants have in an IS blob. Plus, besides the priest there is noone important to execute. Another option would be a primaris (imo meh in conscripts) or inquisitor, both which I would better stick in the platoon. Still I think latter is the best options, he is cheaper and only a little bit weaker in CC and besides the aura he will provide stubborn and LD10 as well.

[CoffeeGrunt]

The Guard Codex is actually very balanced. We don't really have anything that qualifies as a death star unit like you see in most of the space marine armies. Granted Tau, Necrons, and most Space Marines have more than one death star quality unit, guard really doesn't have that, we rely on unit synergy, and army composition to really build good lists.

 

I'm finding this more and more as I play. Guard are almost a Death of a Thousand Cuts army. That Lascannon squad probably isn't going to kill that Land Raider, nor is that Medusa or that Demolisher, not in one shot. But together, any two of them will probably see to it, with the right support and fortune. The same goes for Infantry and the like.

 

We can't pack a squad with Plasma or Power Swords, etc to make a unit of pure Marine Killers, that's why you have a Leman Russ Battle Tank hammer them then move a Plasma Veteran team in to finish. No single unit will reliably kill a Wave Serpent, but concentrated fire will tear it to ribbons with a couple of Orders.

 

I actually really enjoy this dynamic as it presents a constant challenge. Plus there's something so amusing when your opponent is sitting there after their Deathstar squad has been whittled down by four different units pouring fire onto them, exasperatedly asking each time if you're finished shooting so they can roll Morale for the losses, and you gesture to the other four units that will be throwing dice at the unit to wear it down further. You can really give your opponent hell on a good day and make target priority a nightmare. My current list has 3 Lascannons, a Lascannon Sabre Platform, Melta Vets in a Chimera, Bastion Breacher Medusa, and a Vendetta. The first question my opponent asks is, "Which one's the anti-tank so I can kill it?"

 

Oh, mon ami, the Guard do nothing in small doses, and every soldier who can contribute to the cause certainly will!

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

 

The Guard Codex is actually very balanced. We don't really have anything that qualifies as a death star unit like you see in most of the space marine armies. Granted Tau, Necrons, and most Space Marines have more than one death star quality unit, guard really doesn't have that, we rely on unit synergy, and army composition to really build good lists.

 

I'm finding this more and more as I play. Guard are almost a Death of a Thousand Cuts army. That Lascannon squad probably isn't going to kill that Land Raider, nor is that Medusa or that Demolisher, not in one shot. But together, any two of them will probably see to it, with the right support and fortune. The same goes for Infantry and the like.

 

We can't pack a squad with Plasma or Power Swords, etc to make a unit of pure Marine Killers, that's why you have a Leman Russ Battle Tank hammer them then move a Plasma Veteran team in to finish. No single unit will reliably kill a Wave Serpent, but concentrated fire will tear it to ribbons with a couple of Orders.

 

I actually really enjoy this dynamic as it presents a constant challenge. Plus there's something so amusing when your opponent is sitting there after their Deathstar squad has been whittled down by four different units pouring fire onto them, exasperatedly asking each time if you're finished shooting so they can roll Morale for the losses, and you gesture to the other four units that will be throwing dice at the unit to wear it down further. You can really give your opponent hell on a good day and make target priority a nightmare. My current list has 3 Lascannons, a Lascannon Sabre Platform, Melta Vets in a Chimera, Bastion Breacher Medusa, and a Vendetta. The first question my opponent asks is, "Which one's the anti-tank so I can kill it?"

 

Oh, mon ami, the Guard do nothing in small doses, and every soldier who can contribute to the cause certainly will!

 

 

The only unit of Marine Killers we have are Stormtroopers, with their AP3 guns. Granted you have to get in very close to get the volume of fire to get the wounds, but nothing will hurt a marine player more than being unable to use his 3+ save on that melee unit he was going to assault you with. Stormtroopers also are our suicide squads, the one you send in to blow up that really killy unit. I love stormtroopers if you couldn't tell. 

 

Guard's strength is its flexability. They can be a Sledge, or a scalpel depending on build. The Scalpel tends to be the glass cannon, whereas the sledge tends to be the unstoppable force. 

 

People tend to discount guard because it's not a mono-build army. Which makes it very time consuming to build a strong army that fits your play style, hence why  it is often overlooked by powergammers in favor of other armies.

[WarriorFish]

Guard are almost a Death of a Thousand Cuts army.

A good summary I feel! Drown them in dice and let the Emperor sort them out ;)