Has There Been A Shift In Iron Warriors?

[Julgolax]

When I first started playing Chaos, I had only the knowledge that Iron Warriors were siege specialists and they used Vindicators and Basilisks. I delve deeper into the lore to find that they weren't so much Chaos Space Marines as just really hate-filled traitors bent on dragging the Imperium into eternal war, much like the Black Legion. Then they seemed to change. No longer were they just an undivided traitor legion with an affinity for armor and bionics, they seemed to embrace chaos, with Warpsmiths binding daemons to war machines which played a larger role than even their siege tactics. Then I read that one such Warpsmith actually got into a lot of trouble for binding daemons to war machines, indicating that this didn't sit well with the gods at all. So what's happening to the Iron Warriors these days? What happened to the siege specialists who cut off mutated body parts and replaced them with Bionics or gave into chaos completely on the journey to ascend to daemonhood? What was once confused seems almost contradictory now.

 

Any sons of the perturbed one want to enlighten me? Are they just Black Legion with a different color scheme, or is there still something unique about their ways?

[Lay]

As a faction, IW haven't changed. I mean, they've never really rejected Chaos or abstained from possessed wargear. For example, 3rd edition fluff mentions that they honor the gods, without being devout, and that they use possessed bionics.

 

If modern fluff mentions more daemon engines, it's probably because GW is pushing the models. Also Warpsmiths, like Dark Apostles, aren't glorified Chaos Lords any more. Just like generic Apostles form a priesthood among Chaos Marines, generic Warpsmiths are their engineers and thus a source of new Daemon engines.

The *War*smiths they are based on are still in the fluff, but more as a Legion-specific title.

[Xenith]

'Siege Specialists' does not mean that they only do sieges. It's very important to remember that. The chaos warbands of the Iron Warriors are as crazy and unique as that term entails.

 

Ultimately, the IW do not place faith in gods, who often betray their mortal followers. They place their faith instead in their weapons and wargear and armour, the things that they can rely on. The IW will still slice off a squishy appendage if it cannot be armoured - that is a weakness, however extra eyes, or a thick diamond hard skin? It might be hard to see the negative to those.

 

Remember in the same text that describes them slicing off mutations, it details them replacing them with daemon-powered bionics, so this is nothing new. Likewise, the novel 'Storm of Iron', the seminal piece of work for IW players, also features daemon engines, daemonic possession (kind of) and a Warsmith swollen with the gifts of the dark gods.

 

If it works, and is reliable, IW will use it. If it is maybe unreliable, but causes mass destruction, IW will use it. Everything is a tool, a means to an end.

 

Daemons? It turns out that they make really, really good batteries for your toys. Remember that each daemon is a living shard of a god. remove enough shards, and you will notice, and get annoyed. It's like someone removing your toenails. Sure, you can still function, but you'd rather they didn't.

 

Chaos, as a whole, is undergoing a metamorphosis. GW is opening people's minds to the idea that the Legions do not function as that any more. IW are not all shooty gun death, Night Lords are not all Raptors, The Thousand Sons have more followers than just rubric marines.

 

This has the aim of letting a chaos player take any unit in the chaos codex without qualm, or thinking 'the guys in the internet will be unhappy with me if I have death guard raptors, because a paragraph in a 15 year old magazine said they don't have them'.

 

The gist is, that IW are everything you have mentioned, all at the same time. They are not a unified Legion any more, but a series of roving warbands, who will each have their own attitudes to technology, chaos gods, the nature of the warp, daemons, and the long war.

 

In short, it's a big universe, do what you like :)

[Rain]

The creation of demon engines generally requires the subjugation and enslavement of demons, not their worship. Demons don't want to be contained inside of a metal shell where they cannot feel the flesh and blood of their foes, it's like putting a Chaos Marine into a dreadnaught. So that fits with the original fluff, they don't worship Chaos, they use it. That said, the use of Chaos often does require at least nominal worship, or at least ritual and sacrifice.

 

Also, there are still no canon references to marked Iron Warriors other than berzerkers which is in like with what their fluff has been since the IA in 2001 or whenever that was. That said, GW has been trying to push all of their models on all players so not only have they pretty much removed the concept of subfactions (Iron Warriors using different units than say, Emperor's Children) but even primary factions, hence why you can now ally with Grey Knights. This is not however to say that Chaos background now includes occasionally brofisting Draigo. In other words, don't worry, the cynical marketing BS has not yet destroyed the background, so the IW aren't just silver Black Legion, at least in fluff.

[Julgolax]

That would be kind of a shame for the legions to lose what little uniqueness they have left. They already took away the cool stuff of 3rd edition, filled the rules with cheese in 4th and 5th editions, and now GW is just about selling stuff rather than lore, rules, and hobby. To me, Unbound is just a lame way of saying "you want to use Basilisks? make unbound!" or "you want your blood angels to be all jump packs? use unbound!" Kind of lame IMHO>

 

As for the Iron Warriors, I rather liked the idea that they don't bother with the small stuff, that they still operate as a legion, that they live only to challenge the greatest defenses the Imperium has built, and that rather than possession and fiddly daemonmancy, they use the warp to merge flesh and steel, to become the weapons they cherish. An Iron Warriors army, to me, should never be without Terminators, Obliterators, Mutilators, Dreadnoughts, Basilisks, Vindicators, Whirlwinds, Land Raiders and of course Daemon Engines now that we have them to use. They epitomize the methodology of the Iron Warriors. It also saddens me that there aren't actually any Warsmith special rules, and you can only really get one in your army legitimately by saying the techmarine arm is a "power fist". The Warpsmith just doesn't cut it IMHO.

 

P.S. #Rant

I can see what they're going for, making "chaos chapters" but then they don't take the opportunity to make supplements or any rules for the Legions that made Chaos Space Marines what it is today. :( That Black Legion supplement was kinda meh, since it wasn't really necessary. Like the Ultramarines and Codex: Space Marines, the Black Legion IS Codex: Chaos Space Marines. Remember the days when Alpha Legion could be fielded with Scout as an army-wide rule on infantry or the Night Lords benefited from free night vision and raptors? The list goes on.

 

If I were to get into that whole "Unbound" debacle, I'd try to justify building a whole army of IW terminators, obliterators, mutilators, Chaos Marines and Havocs for a really fluffy infantry army at the risk of going against cheap-o armies like Riptides galore! and Oh look, more Scythes!

 

/Rant

[Goreshed]

When looking back in older editions you also have to look at the overall state of 40k at that time. Once you take that into a wider context then things seem to fit more into place. This is a 'new' edition thus the feel of it will be slightly different from the last one.

 

Granted I haven't been impressed with Chaos since the 'golden years' of 3.5 and that reason is simple. GW (at least to me) seemed to put the focus on the 4 chaos gods and not the Legions and their fall. I agree that Chaos is apart of the Traitor Legions but it's not the entire sum of the Traitor Legions. Had the Legions not turned from the Emperor, Chaos wouldn't have had the chances it has now and things would be entirely different. There is a symbiosis with the Traitor Legions and Chaos, sometimes its not entirely balanced but at the end of the day it could be seen as such. Undivided you could run across to Black Legion. Not Alpha Legion/Iron Warriors/Night Lords. Yet they sit there and say "well yes you can make those armies though with these rules we stamped out for Black Legion!" But that's not the case. Each individual Legion has its own flavor/fluff/looks/everything then the other. That I think is what bothers Chaos players the most. Specially when we 'look across the aisle' at our loyalist counterparts and see them getting Chapter rules for individual chapters while we are stuck with the 4 Chaos gods and "undivided", with the excuse from GW that it would 'have taken too much time' or 'too much work to get it right' which at the end of the day is total BS when we look back and see the 3.5 dex.

 

Has the 4th Legion evolved? Sure but the entire genre of 40k has evolved with it. Are they still Traitor Legions? Sure to some extent. But are they what they were when they first turned? No and they will never be. This is the beauty of the genre of Chaos and the Traitor Legions. Also remember that a key 'thought process' of the IW has always been that once they start on a path they follow it to the end, it doesn't matter where it leads them they see it through to the end. Which in that case could see some adopt mutations in different ways from how it was viewed 3 codexes ago. People forget that even if they were typecast as siege specialists during the Great Crusade that doesn't mean they suffer in other areas. They like their big guns but that doesn't mean they are blind to both the negative and positive aspects of other ways to win a war. That is probably the one thing I like about Honsou in the books that have been put out. That he follows his path but isn't afraid of using anything and anyone to win which is what the IW is all about.

[N1SB]

A quick reply: I agree with OP, because I came across a similar situation, a real case study.

 

 

I played 1st, 2nd, 3rd ed of 40k, then left the Hobby.  I was brought back by a younger friend, who started with 4th or 5th.  He was more knowledgeable than me.  He never intentionally showed off, but it's clear he read the books, loved them, talked about the lore in a way that looked at all perspectives.  He suggested I look at 6th ed's CSM codex, and we discussed what army interested me.

 

 

And it was in that Chaos Space Marine discussion where our views deviated widely.

 

 

I wanted to do a more "Renegade" warband and mentioned Iron Warriors; they were against the Imperium, not because they loved Chaos, but because they had reason to hate the Imperium.  My view was based on an old White Dwarf Chapter Approved article, they saw themselves as "titans of old", where they could take a Basilisk or some Imperial Guard Heavy Support in their army.  So I was thinking Mark III Iron Armour, artillery, fortifications: good old-fashioned steel.

 

 

What he saw when I mentioned Iron Warriors were Maulerfiends, Helldrakes, Hellbrutes, even Iron Warrior bikers that looked like Chaos Centaurs, because they would replace their bodies with Bionic robot horse-like lower bodies and legs.  It was not a thoughtless view; it's just that his reference point was in many more books than were available in earlier editions, Dark Heresy RPGs and stuff.  So he was thinking: Daemonforge.

 

 

We agreed on the exact same point yet were on polar opposite ends.  To summarise:

 

 

- to the 1st/2nd/3rd ed guy, IW leaned on tech, so in the EoT, they never really needed Chaos/Daemons

 

- to the 4th/5th/6th ed guy, IW leaned on tech, so in the EoT, they used Chaos/Daemons-INFUSED tech

 

 

I came to see his perspective, as whereas 3rd just saw the addition of the Obliterator Cult, 6th saw the inclusion of all sorts of new robo-dragons, robo-monsters, etc.  We both really enjoyed the lore, but I really do believe, the lore had evolved over time, perhaps just as IW had to adapt to their new conditions.

 

 

---

 

 

However, Nolkar, I did notice your question's not just about Iron Warriors, but a broader theme: the loss of differentiation between the different Chaos Legions.  To compare, the older Loyalist Space Marine codex by Matt Ward was like, the Ultramarine codex; the other chapters were just funnily coloured Ultramarines.  This time, I think Chaos Space Marines ended up like that (while the most recent Loyalist Codex saw their own individual Chapter Tactics).

 

 

Even though I feel this loss, I actually am beginning to understand and appreciate why.  GW is doing less to differentiate the individual Chaos Legions from one another because it's trying to differentiate the Chaos Legions from their Loyalist counterparts overall.  Looking at the Dark Vengeance set, for example, Chaos Space Marines no longer look like Mark VII Power Armour with spikes glued on; they really do look like their own thing, no longer a shadow, but a dark reflection.

 

 

Example - in previous editions, we had Chaos Dreadnoughts, which were basically a Loyalist Dreadnought, then you stick spikes on it, and glue a Chaos Warrior helmet from the Fantasy set on it.  Now, we have a Hellbrute, which has a formation of Cultists.  I kinda do like that direction.

 

 

So this might not be a loss at all, but a temporary trade-off.  1st, GW focuses on distinguishing Chaos from Loyalist.  Then, one Chaos Legion from another, possibly from a new codex or mini-codices or supplements.  It's taking longer than we like, so much so I'm switching to Ad Mech, but Tzeentch willing, Change will come.

[Tenebris]

Well many of the Iron Warriors concepts are shattered when you read the Sentinels of Terra supplement and the books about Captain Lysander. Even as a non IW guy I was at loss with them. 

 

The thing is that as a matter of fact the Iron Warriors are indeed very Chaos. In one of the short stories (the one with a Jouran Dragoon character) we read of Daemonic locomotives, furnaces with enslaved daemons, warped Iron Warriors who are very much mutants on their own right. We read of Iron Warriors using Nurgle daemons to such cancers from their slaves and daemonic living tiles which bleed when you walk on them (and occasionally eat you). 

 

Said all this and considering the other IW books I often am very confused when people say that Iron Warriors hate Chaos. They distrust Chaos, they would chop off a mutation if it is not functional, but they are inclined to reap all possible benefits from their allegiance to Chaos Undivided. I personally think that my M41 the Iron Warriors are every bit as corrupted, mutated and warped as their cousins in the other Chaos Legions.

 

This is in fact no change at all. This is an evolution glimpsed across many Black Library and Games Workshop publications. The more recent is the publication the more Chaos is there in Chaos Space Marines. Which is proper I dare say.

[Warsmith Aznable]

If chaos marines are about one thing, that one thing is what the chaos lord wants and has the power to enforce. Some Warsmiths are going to embrace chaos, some Warsmiths are not. Some warbands carve out kingdoms in the Eye of Terror or other warp holes like the Maelstrom, some warbands carve out kingdoms in real space among the bones of forgotten or conquered sectors of the galaxy. Some are fighting the Long War, some are fighting for selfish, personal goals, some are fighting for mere survival.

 

Old fluff describes a general inclination that aligned with the vision the design team had at that time. New fluff describes more specific recent histories aligned with the vision of the design team currently. As players we get to choose what interests is and explore that. All of the fluff is true, and all the fluff is a lie. CSM enthusiasts, more than any other faction, should understand what it means to choose the lie you prefer and dedicate your life to making it the truth.

[Iron Skull Mask]

Fluff also depends on the writer, especially when we are talking about BL publications. The stuff Ben Counter writes up is hardly representative for the IW (just as it is hardly readable, sorry Ben). If you read Angel Exterminatus and then Storm of Iron and after that Siege of Castellax, you get a really good idea of how the IW changed from 30k to 40k. They got their share of corruption, for example their paranoia and cruelty, or the obliterator virus, or as they made use of daemons to power war engines, bionics or jump packs. There are even some worshippers like Kroegers men in Storm of Iron, and even some possessed as the guy in Dead Sky, Black Sun. But those are not who characterise the Legion in general, even in M41. And the kind of corruption found amongst the IW is far different from that of the Emperor's Children or the Death Guard. This becomes very clear when you read some pieces on those as well (although ýou already get the idea when reading Angel Exterminatus).

[Tenebris]

Fluff also depends on the writer, especially when we are talking about BL publications. The stuff Ben Counter writes up is hardly representative for the IW (just as it is hardly readable, sorry Ben). 

 

I agree 110% here. See it is not that hard. 

 

As for Angel Exterminatus... I was disappointed to say the least. I had such high hopes for that book. And as matter of fact I read it in the succession you present. If you recall I have even posted in the IW community topic my "vote" when I have read the follow up books. 

[Warsmith Aznable]

Angel Exterminatus offered good characterization for Perturabo, but fell short as story. It's worth it just for the passages showing that insight on the Primarch.

 

Pertutabo's fall to chaos isn't complete until after the Siege of Terra, though. There's definitely more room to get to know the guy, and I hope a decent writer takes him on and shows us the daemon Primarch he becomes.