brother_contagion Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 Since most players are going to go for the shooty Wraithknight rather than the CC one, the shooty one will be easier to kill and handle in CC since it doesn't have any D CCW and Stomps are generally S6 AP4 most of the time. You'll still need at least S8 to wound it on 4s, but you'd want to strike it before the I1 step to kill it before Stomps to save yourself from any lucky 6 roll. So here's my suggestions: As far as Chaos Space Marines, I'm thinking the easiest way to kill a Wraithknight is with a ML3 Nurgle Demon Prince with the Black Mace rolling for Invisibility and/or Abaddon with his Talon of Horus. Abaddon would need a Land Raider to catch one plus any bodyguard you put with him would be about 505pts+bodyguard. While the Demon Prince would be around 355pts and able to keep up with one easier and possibly survive better with Invisibility and +2 Jink, so the Mace Prince could be the cheaper option. The Black Mace could still wound it on a 2+ because it's Fleshbane not Poison. You could also have a Khorne Prince with the Blind Fury and wound it on 3s on the charge with essentially the same chance as the Mace Prince but cheaper, although less survivable. For Khorne Demonkin, Bloodthirsters could do it, though it would still be risky since they'll only wound on 6s, however that's what you'd be looking for anyways because that'll be D3 wounds and it won't get its FnP. The Insensate Rage guy could kill it easier than a Knight Titan since it has no D CCW, but you'd still be swinging when the Stomps happen and be risking a lucky 6. A Demon Prince with the Goredrinker could do it easily but would have to kill a few things before hand to get up to that point. They also have Soul Grinders but the likelihood for them to catch one in CC is slim. Both have access to Maulerfiends, which would be a good counter to them. Having 2 gang up on one with Lasher Tendrils on one and Magma Cutters on the other could do some good damage, and that would be 270pts. As far as other options, I'm not certain. Does anyone else have any suggestions for Chaos Marines and Demonkin options for taking out a Wraithknight? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307673-to-kill-a-wraithknight/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forté Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 I'd like to see the cheapest, most humiliating way to either take it out or even better, tar pit them so they can't do anything. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307673-to-kill-a-wraithknight/#findComment-4043801 Share on other sites More sharing options...
brother_contagion Posted May 16, 2015 Author Share Posted May 16, 2015 I'd like to see the cheapest, most humiliating way to either take it out or even better, tar pit them so they can't do anything. Typhus Zombie horde! Put so many zombies on the board that those pesky skimmers and Wraithknights will have no where to move! EDIT: Go Unbound and make as many 10-man zombie units as possible. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307673-to-kill-a-wraithknight/#findComment-4043813 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midnightmare Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 Be'Lakor? Again 350pts but I am sure he has Fleshbane and Invisiblity. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307673-to-kill-a-wraithknight/#findComment-4043826 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forté Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 Be'Lakor? Again 350pts but I am sure he has Fleshbane and Invisiblity. That's more points than the Xenos machine. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307673-to-kill-a-wraithknight/#findComment-4043832 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Skull Mask Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 What about psychic shriek? Granted, the eldar are really good in the psychic department, but a godd roll might hurt the WK rather bad. What do you guys think? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307673-to-kill-a-wraithknight/#findComment-4043951 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron_Within Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 Maulerfiend with invisibility on it. Okay yes it's cheating on your stipulations a little (but most have Bel'akor somewhere these days). Honestly though the best way to deal with it is Tarpitting. Alternatively, a unit of 5 Spawn with Mark of Nurgle can tie it up for a little while. Stomp is the killer in this regard. Against Eldar Zombies are a good bet, whether Typhus are R&H, with R&H 100 zombies are 300 points and you can bubble wrap everything with them, then march forward with your tarpit of doom. Typhus version are near 400 for the same thing, but a single unit is really all you need. The trick being though is catching the bloody thing. Another option with he Helcult Cultists, cheaper tax than above and still fearless, but have the advantage of being able to run. again one unit will trap the Wraithknight for most the game with clever positioning. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307673-to-kill-a-wraithknight/#findComment-4043986 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forté Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 Could it break out of a tarpit, being a gargantuan creature? Think I'll check the rules. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307673-to-kill-a-wraithknight/#findComment-4044168 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevak Dal Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 Could it break out of a tarpit, being a gargantuan creature? Think I'll check the rules. If so, it would seem that the only thing to be a Metal Gear Wraith Knight effectively and economically, is to ally in Eldar Jetbikes loaded to their pointy ears with Heavy Weapons and your own Wraith Knight. GeeDub was real cute with the points cost-it's cheap enough so that you could get it in just about any size game. I'm hoping to run Movie Marines against an Eldar army soon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307673-to-kill-a-wraithknight/#findComment-4044841 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebris Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 I am afraid that we have little to no solution for that point price tag to deal in an equal way with the Wraithknight. What we have cannot even be considered options for either they cost too much in points and we risk to lose them to a lucky 6 (Be'lakor) or are still expensive and only passably effective IF luck iS involved (2x Maulerfiend). I have to check the rules but I am positive that a tarpit in the form of zombies is not the real solution to the Wraithknight problem. Maybe a tactic to use in extremis but not a reliable strategy to base our hopes on it. The solutions which come to my mind are ... sigh... allied Imperial Knight, allied Mechanicus high strength/volume shooting and something with Poison. Though neither of this solutions is a Battle Brothers option, well maybe the Plague Drones. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307673-to-kill-a-wraithknight/#findComment-4044871 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forté Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 Possibly even a Chaos Knight depending on how the rules turn out from FW. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307673-to-kill-a-wraithknight/#findComment-4044891 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellrender Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 No, Chaos does not have a hard counter to the ranged D wraithknight. There are some counters to the melee variant, but not that good, and it will cost more than the knight still. However, we are not alone. There are practicly NO non-eldar hard counters to the wraith knight, that do not exceed the 300pts. Imperials can try something with a sternguard drop pod and combi's, and i'm sure there are some things i haven't thought of , but actuall hard counters are hard to find. If you go full horde the wraith knight will be useless, but then they have jetbikes and Dflamer wraiths still. If you have even 1+ monster or vehicle the Wraith knight will destroy it, before you can destroy it. (That was my original plan, to use my anti knight prince, but the ranged D just doesnt allow for such). That said though. The Wraith knight will not kill all that much per turn. Sure it's though, and sure its destructive, there are worse things (D weapons on wraith guard). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307673-to-kill-a-wraithknight/#findComment-4044915 Share on other sites More sharing options...
brother_contagion Posted May 16, 2015 Author Share Posted May 16, 2015 Possibly even a Chaos Knight depending on how the rules turn out from FW. I'm hoping beyond hope that this is NOT simply a conversion kit, otherwise we're in the same boat. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307673-to-kill-a-wraithknight/#findComment-4044918 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aspiringchaoschampion Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 personally id ignore the double wraith cannon varient Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307673-to-kill-a-wraithknight/#findComment-4044957 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castigator Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 If you're looking at allies and want to stay true to the background then 18 Daemonettes led by a Beguilement Herald should put around 8 wounds on it before FNP.....unfortunately the Scatbikes will probably get them before they get anywhere near Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307673-to-kill-a-wraithknight/#findComment-4044985 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Res Ipsa Loquitur Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 Daemonkin could summon a D Thirster to take it down for no points spent. Unending Horde to tarpit it? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307673-to-kill-a-wraithknight/#findComment-4044987 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebris Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 That D Bloodthirster strikes at Initiative 1, which means that he is twice dead by the time he is able to hit. It is also highly unlikely that he would get into close combat without fuss. The Eldar are tricky and all those rerolls are a veritable pain in the rear to deal with. The Wraithknight is not a dire threat due to its D weapons but because of its durability, mobility and the superb support that his army can provide, ranging from psychic powers to the ever present jetbikes and other awesome units. When you learn that no unit exists in a void it is not hard to say that ATM the Wraithknight is nigh impossible to tackle unless you have a really optimized army list. It is not just a thing of unit vs unit but army vs army and the Eldar beat us fair and square in almost every phase. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307673-to-kill-a-wraithknight/#findComment-4044998 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellrender Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 The problem is that the ranged D wraithknight will kill the D thirster before the D thrster can do anything. Also it's not free. It costs 8 blood tithe points that can be spend on other things. The other problem is that the melee D wraith knight strikes before the D Thirster, giving it a very good chance to take it out, or severly wound it before the D thirster get's to strike (that is after the eldar army hasn't already taken it out somehow (Wraith guard with a variant of D weapon pop to mind). Not trying to be all dark and gloomy here, but GW really missed the ball with the amount of S D in the eldar codex, on top of the usual volume of fire. The rest of the eldar dex is really not that bad to play against. Hard for sure, eldar is defo (without D weapons) top tier, but just 1-2 units that are either severely undercosted (wraith knight) or outright stupid to have in regular games of 40k (wraith guard with D weapon variants). Best to just ignore it, and win on objectives somehow. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307673-to-kill-a-wraithknight/#findComment-4044999 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucio Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 My best counter is a Lord of Khorne with Goredrinker and an Axe of Khorne but thats conditional on getting fed a wussy squad first to boost you to S10. Potentially 9 attacks on the charge its your best hope. That or Khârn in a Land Raider Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307673-to-kill-a-wraithknight/#findComment-4045017 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Res Ipsa Loquitur Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 That D Bloodthirster strikes at Initiative 1, which means that he is twice dead by the time he is able to hit. Maybe I'm missing something, can you elaborate on this? 'Ignore it' is currently my go-to plan for WK, if I ever face one. The problem is that the ranged D wraithknight will kill the D thirster before the D thrster can do anything. Also it's not free No, it's not but then I didn't say it was. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307673-to-kill-a-wraithknight/#findComment-4045020 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebris Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 My best counter is a Lord of Khorne with Goredrinker and an Axe of Khorne but thats conditional on getting fed a wussy squad first to boost you to S10. Potentially 9 attacks on the charge its your best hope. That or KHÂRN in a Land Raider That D Bloodthirster strikes at Initiative 1, which means that he is twice dead by the time he is able to hit. Maybe I'm missing something, can you elaborate on this? 'Ignore it' is currently my go-to plan for WK, if I ever face one. The problem is that the ranged D wraithknight will kill the D thirster before the D thrster can do anything. Also it's not free No, it's not but then I didn't say it was. @Lucio Ahh my friend but you are paying much more points than the Wrtaithknight is worth and there is no guarantee to deal with it in a satisfactory way. Either you are sure that the tradeoff is worth it or you risk to expose a sizable element of your army to simply knock out an enemy model. And also it should be said that a proper Eldar player would ask for your weapons and their rules the very moment you place that scary looking lord on the table and sure as hell he is not going to allow you have a go at his Wratihknight. @Res Ipsa Loquitur The axe comes with a special rule. It is Unwieldy and thus the Bloodthirster strikes at Initiative 1. Even a basic marine squad with their Initiative 4 can ruin your day. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307673-to-kill-a-wraithknight/#findComment-4045034 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Res Ipsa Loquitur Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 No, no, I know about Unwieldy and everything, but I am unaware of how the Thirster would be 'twice dead' at the hands of a shooty WK before he swings. Sorry, could have been clearer. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307673-to-kill-a-wraithknight/#findComment-4045076 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebris Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 No, no, I know about Unwieldy and everything, but I am unaware of how the Thirster would be 'twice dead' at the hands of a shooty WK before he swings. Sorry, could have been clearer. If for nothing else there is a good chance that the Bloodthirster dies the very turn he is forced to drop on the ground in order to assault the next turn. There is no avoiding this phase and every Eldar player worth his salt would knock you twice over before you even swing that axe. In melee the Wraithknight is still a hard hitter and there is no arguing with the Initiative order, should you survive the Overwatch or worst still, the many rerolls his army can place upon the Wraithknight. It is the buff/mobility/quality shooting and melee that is hard to beat with this unit and since no unit exists in a vacuum the smart player would negate any threat to his main damage dealer or his main support unit. If nothing else he would throw a sacrificial unit to your Bloodthirster to simply stop you for a turn while he readies his gunline for the inevitable charge. I stand by my argument that only an optimized army list can deal with the Eldar and this is without counting the awesome formations and bonuses resulting from said formations. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307673-to-kill-a-wraithknight/#findComment-4045088 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Res Ipsa Loquitur Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 No, no, I know about Unwieldy and everything, but I am unaware of how the Thirster would be 'twice dead' at the hands of a shooty WK before he swings. Sorry, could have been clearer. If for nothing else there is a good chance that the Bloodthirster dies the very turn he is forced to drop on the ground in order to assault the next turn. There is no avoiding this phase and every Eldar player worth his salt would knock you twice over before you even swing that axe. In melee the Wraithknight is still a hard hitter and there is no arguing with the Initiative order, should you survive the Overwatch or worst still, the many rerolls his army can place upon the Wraithknight. It is the buff/mobility/quality shooting and melee that is hard to beat with this unit and since no unit exists in a vacuum the smart player would negate any threat to his main damage dealer or his main support unit. If nothing else he would throw a sacrificial unit to your Bloodthirster to simply stop you for a turn while he readies his gunline for the inevitable charge. I stand by my argument that only an optimized army list can deal with the Eldar and this is without counting the awesome formations and bonuses resulting from said formations. FWIW, I'm not putting the D Thirster forward as a one-stop be-all end-all solution to the WK, but bear in mind that to even get 8 Tithe points in the first place there's a fair chance that my army is in or very close to melee with those support units. As you say, nothing exists in a vaccuum. And while the Thirster isn't 'free', it is at no points cost, meaning I'm not dedicating any part of my army to taking on the WK. A C:KD army is designed to kill and die in any case (Khorne cares not from where the blood flows etc. etc.) and so I'm not changing how my army plays in response to the WK either, except that I wouldn't normally consider summoning a Thirster as those Tithe points are usually better spent elsewhere, as @Hellrender notes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307673-to-kill-a-wraithknight/#findComment-4045095 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebris Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 Ahh but a good Eldar player can easily avoid melee, especially with a Jetbike based list. He can shoot and scoot without much of a problem and while you are getting in there to knock him over the head he has already killed half of your army, is contenting several objectives and with a smart play with his Jetbikes he will score Linebreaker at the very last moment. Also he can afford to wait, Blood Tithe or no, he has the firepower to kill everything moving in a CSM/Daemonkin army. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307673-to-kill-a-wraithknight/#findComment-4045097 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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