To Kill a Wraithknight

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Ahh but a good Eldar player can easily avoid melee, especially with a Jetbike based list. He can shoot and scoot without much of a problem and while you are getting in there to knock him over the head he has already killed half of your army, is contenting several objectives and with a smart play with his Jetbikes he will score Linebreaker at the very last moment. 

 

Also he can afford to wait, Blood Tithe or no, he has the firepower to kill everything moving in a CSM/Daemonkin army. 

 

Well... :cuss

 

I guess you're right.

[Uprising]

Just flood the table with cultist/R&H/zombies.  A normal board is 6 x 4, they can't run if you cover it.  The eldar are a glass cannon, they can't win the war of attrition. 

[Iron_Within]

Best solution to someone fielding a D Wraithknight and scatterbikes everywhere (or, 10 WraithGuard, Archaon with no scatter and 2++ in the squad all deep striking in a more personal case*). Pack up all your miniatures calmly, and inform the git that you do not wish to play against their stupid bendy army. Okay this is not an option in a tournament conditions, but honestly, playing anything other than a couple of races these days in a tournament is a waste of time.

*Oh don't worry that list has been toned down for a Wraithknight instead of the WG deathstar

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Khorne would not look kindly on any form of retreat.

[Slayer le Boucher]

Kick in the balls of the Eldar player so hard that he can taste his own offspring.

 

Works every time.

[brother_contagion]

Daemonkin could summon a D Thirster to take it down for no points spent.

 

You can't summon a D Thirster, only the generic one.

 

Ahh but a good Eldar player can easily avoid melee, especially with a Jetbike based list. He can shoot and scoot without much of a problem and while you are getting in there to knock him over the head he has already killed half of your army, is contenting several objectives and with a smart play with his Jetbikes he will score Linebreaker at the very last moment. 

 

Also he can afford to wait, Blood Tithe or no, he has the firepower to kill everything moving in a CSM/Daemonkin army. 

 

lol, I think you're making the Eldar out to be unbeatable, and while they do have some really good/broken units, being auto-win every game is far from the case. lol

 

Of course the Eldar player is going to avoid melee like the plague, that's what they've always been about. However that doesn't mean that they can't be dealt with. A D Thirster could easily take care of a shooty Wraithknight in CC, and even the CC Wraithknight will have some trouble with him because both will be hitting on 5s. Stomps won't be all that effective against a Bloodthirster because you have a 1 in 6 chance of it killing it or doing nothing, while a 1 in 4 chance for doing a single S6 AP4 hit.

 

Shooting D weapons at the Bloodthirster would be a problem, but you'd more than likely still be getting your Jink save against it. Also you're going to have other units/formations that can take care of the bikes and Wave Serpents, for example: Brazen Onslaught with Bloodcrushers, Khorne's Bloodstorm with Raptors, Warp Talons and a Heldrake, the Gorepack with Bikers and scouting Flesh Hounds, as well as Maulerfiends and Forgefiends pouring out tons of S8 shots.

 

The Demonkin and Chaos Space Marines have things to deal with Wraithknights AND whatever else the Eldar have to throw at them. You're being a bit short sighted. lol

[Tenebris]

 

Daemonkin could summon a D Thirster to take it down for no points spent.

 

You can't summon a D Thirster, only the generic one.

 

Ahh but a good Eldar player can easily avoid melee, especially with a Jetbike based list. He can shoot and scoot without much of a problem and while you are getting in there to knock him over the head he has already killed half of your army, is contenting several objectives and with a smart play with his Jetbikes he will score Linebreaker at the very last moment. 

 

Also he can afford to wait, Blood Tithe or no, he has the firepower to kill everything moving in a CSM/Daemonkin army. 

 

lol, I think you're making the Eldar out to be unbeatable, and while they do have some really good/broken units, being auto-win every game is far from the case. lol

 

Of course the Eldar player is going to avoid melee like the plague, that's what they've always been about. However that doesn't mean that they can't be dealt with. A D Thirster could easily take care of a shooty Wraithknight in CC, and even the CC Wraithknight will have some trouble with him because both will be hitting on 5s. Stomps won't be all that effective against a Bloodthirster because you have a 1 in 6 chance of it killing it or doing nothing, while a 1 in 4 chance for doing a single S6 AP4 hit.

 

Shooting D weapons at the Bloodthirster would be a problem, but you'd more than likely still be getting your Jink save against it. Also you're going to have other units/formations that can take care of the bikes and Wave Serpents, for example: Brazen Onslaught with Bloodcrushers, Khorne's Bloodstorm with Raptors, Warp Talons and a Heldrake, the Gorepack with Bikers and scouting Flesh Hounds, as well as Maulerfiends and Forgefiends pouring out tons of S8 shots.

 

The Demonkin and Chaos Space Marines have things to deal with Wraithknights AND whatever else the Eldar have to throw at them. You're being a bit short sighted. lol

 

 

But have you counted how many points you have to invest to deal with units which are way cheaper than anything you throw at them. I am not making the Eldar unbeatable. An Eldar when optimized is nigh unbeatable. The sad fact is that an optimized Chaos list is still so many leagues under the Eldar one that it becomes a game which only the Eldar player will enjoy and most probably win too. You have to pay for premium units like Warp Talons and Bloodcrushers which are useless even in the best of lights. As for everything else, indeed there is a lot of fun to be had by spamming Flesh Hounds. 

 

It is the point value which beats us and the mechanics of the Eldar army follow suite. We have to pay for premium and elite units to even stand a chance against the troops of the Eldar. There is something wrong with this equation. Many other armies can afford it. Chaos cannot. 

[Trevak Dal]

Khorne would not look kindly on any form of retreat.

Khorne doesn't care who bleeds, so long a someone does. He wants us to die as much as them-hell, the Eldar scatBikes and super cheap Wraith Knights are his new champions in death dealing.

When the approrpiately named "Escalation" came out-I made it clear, I'm not going to buy into the 40k Arms race, and that's EXACTLY what this is.

Ultimately it comes down to what are you going to buy to try and fight it-and whatever awesome crazy GeeDub eventually gives the Loyalists. For me, that's not going to happen, I make it clear at the beginning that I'm not into Apocalypse Lite.

The next best approach is to make the game as unenjoyable for the Eldar Player as possible. Don't move. Don't shoot. Just take armor saves. Take 15 minute turns where you debate on what to do-and then do nothing. Waste their time, because Screw them and Screw Phil Kelly.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

 

You can't summon a D Thirster, only the generic one.

 

 

Well, double :cuss then.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

 

Khorne doesn't care who bleeds, so long a someone does.  He wants us to die as much as them

 

 

Quite. Which is why I won't take my ball home when faced with Eldar and why I will charge at them headlong and try to chop the pointy-eared little :cuss into so much liver. 

 

I won't spit my dummy out and I will try to find a way to win regardless of being outclassed.

[brother_contagion]

 

 

Daemonkin could summon a D Thirster to take it down for no points spent.

 

You can't summon a D Thirster, only the generic one.

 

Ahh but a good Eldar player can easily avoid melee, especially with a Jetbike based list. He can shoot and scoot without much of a problem and while you are getting in there to knock him over the head he has already killed half of your army, is contenting several objectives and with a smart play with his Jetbikes he will score Linebreaker at the very last moment. 

 

Also he can afford to wait, Blood Tithe or no, he has the firepower to kill everything moving in a CSM/Daemonkin army. 

 

lol, I think you're making the Eldar out to be unbeatable, and while they do have some really good/broken units, being auto-win every game is far from the case. lol

 

Of course the Eldar player is going to avoid melee like the plague, that's what they've always been about. However that doesn't mean that they can't be dealt with. A D Thirster could easily take care of a shooty Wraithknight in CC, and even the CC Wraithknight will have some trouble with him because both will be hitting on 5s. Stomps won't be all that effective against a Bloodthirster because you have a 1 in 6 chance of it killing it or doing nothing, while a 1 in 4 chance for doing a single S6 AP4 hit.

 

Shooting D weapons at the Bloodthirster would be a problem, but you'd more than likely still be getting your Jink save against it. Also you're going to have other units/formations that can take care of the bikes and Wave Serpents, for example: Brazen Onslaught with Bloodcrushers, Khorne's Bloodstorm with Raptors, Warp Talons and a Heldrake, the Gorepack with Bikers and scouting Flesh Hounds, as well as Maulerfiends and Forgefiends pouring out tons of S8 shots.

 

The Demonkin and Chaos Space Marines have things to deal with Wraithknights AND whatever else the Eldar have to throw at them. You're being a bit short sighted. lol

 

 

But have you counted how many points you have to invest to deal with units which are way cheaper than anything you throw at them. I am not making the Eldar unbeatable. An Eldar when optimized is nigh unbeatable. The sad fact is that an optimized Chaos list is still so many leagues under the Eldar one that it becomes a game which only the Eldar player will enjoy and most probably win too. You have to pay for premium units like Warp Talons and Bloodcrushers which are useless even in the best of lights. As for everything else, indeed there is a lot of fun to be had by spamming Flesh Hounds. 

 

It is the point value which beats us and the mechanics of the Eldar army follow suite. We have to pay for premium and elite units to even stand a chance against the troops of the Eldar. There is something wrong with this equation. Many other armies can afford it. Chaos cannot. 

 

 

355pts for a ML3 Nurgle Mace Prince is not only optimized for Wraithknights, but pretty much everything else, so it's not a tailor and it's not always about point for point. I'm not sure where you're getting Warp Talons or Bloodcrushers being useless, unless you have a personal dislike for them, which is fine.

 

There's always going to be "that guy" who makes cheesy lists. I'm not talking about that (even though Eldar are pretty broken).

 

I see that you've made your point that you think Chaos can't beat Eldar, which I disagree with, but I'm looking for ways to fight Wraithknights easier.

[Scribe]

I dont see how Eldar are themselves impossible. We have fast units (Hounds) that we can easily ally in. Now if you want to stick to some artifically shallow "How can CSM's deal with them." You are not going to find a lot of answers.

[Tenebris]

@brother_contagion

 

My argument is that you "can" deal with the Wraithknight and the Eldar to a certain extent but you do that by severely exposing the most valuable elements of your army. You have to risk the likes of Daemon Princes, Warp Talons, Juggernauts and Bikers to tackle what are essentially enemy troops, troops which still outgun all that we can throw at them. 

 

Since no army exists in a vacuum what I am saying is that you have to invest 2/3 of your army to deal with 1/3 of the Eldar army. The remaining parts of the Xeno force have the tools to do the things that you cannot whilst you are dealing with the Wraithknight, the Wraithguard and their Seers. The rest of the Eldar army caps objectives, scores Maelstrom points and moves to better positions. It is mobile, fast and hard hitting and while you have spent the good three turns to deal with the major threat you realize that you are behind objective points, you risk a Linebreaker by the Eldar in the last turn and there are good chances that due to their quality shooting they already have First Blood, scored in the first two turns you needed to get into melee with their "bait" unit. 

 

I am not stating that the Eldar are impossible to fight and to win against them. What I am stating that the Chaos player has to extend his army resourced to a straining point to deal with the big threats in the Eldar army. We have to risk the likes of Daemon Princes and the sad fact is that there is no guarantee that it will work. An Eldar can almost guarantee that he can delete units in one or two turns of shooting, he has the tools to make it so. 

 

It is more than a tradeoff, it is a gamble which is very risky, it has little to no return and if goes wrong you are tabled by turn three when you lose your main assets. It is not impossible to win against the Eldar, but it is nigh impossible to score a clean victory against them with Chaos. Form my experience it is the endgame that the Eldar are at their most vicious and it is in the endgame that a Chaos player is so depleted that it is a miracle if he survives the last moves of the game. 

 

Sure you have dealt with the Wraithknight, maybe even stopped the Seers in their tracks but you traded half if not 2/3 of your army to deal with this threats and now you run the risk to be broken because of the Eldar player having this outstanding mobility and flexibility which truly are the game changers in the endgame. And for those tricks we of Chaos have little to no answer. 

 

All they need is one Jetbike squadron, maybe even an Aspect Warrior squad in reserve and they can play us for the fools. 

[Trevak Dal]

I don't like Nurgle, but me and a guy at the store (awesome Purge army-the Purge have an awesome color scheme), and his sorcerer got Weapon virus, combined with some Terribad rolling on the Eldar player's part, his squad of Jetbikes killed themselves trying to shoot at us.

 

That was a damn fun game-even against Eldar and Tau (and me siding with Nurgle with my Khorne Daemonkin...The Brass Apostle was probably beside himself-but the only thing He hates more than those who worship The Lesser Gods are the Elflings and Blue Hunters)