vahouth Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 Omg, where to start? Well, first of all let met give you some backround info. It was in a tournament setting, 1500pts, and the special rules were, no LoWs, no Unique Characters, no Flyers. My list was jump packs heavy, Libby with Gallian's Staff, SP with Valor's Edge an auspex , 20 ASM with fist, melta- flamer, 20 tacticals with gravgun- heavy flamer, a baal and 12 dc with 2pf and 2 pws. My opponent had a farseer on a jet bike, 30 guardians + 3 eldar missile launchers, a war walker with 2 scatter lasers, a viper with shuriken cannon, 15 dire avengers shrine, 10 bansees and 3 dark reapers, all with exarch, a fire prism, 3 falcons with pulse lasers, scatter lasers and shuriken cannons and finaly a shadow weaver support battery. The mission was Maelstrom of war: tactical escalation and was played on a sparse forest table. On the first eldar turn, I already lost 3 units, all of my DC and a ASM combat squad. Then everything went to hell after that. My opponent's list isn't even optimised and he powned me hard. His shooting phase was pretty much disgusting, for each turn I had to endure more than 70! Bladestorm shots, 9 str8 ap2-3 shots from the pulse lasers/missile launchers, 20 str6 ap6, 7 str5 ap3, a st6 blast and of course the fire prism. The game ended on his 5th turn with a final score of 14-9 and I consider myself lucky. He still had on the table, all 3 falcons, the f-prism, the walker, 12 guardians, 5 avengers, 1 banshee exarch, the support battery and the reapers. If this is not even close to the worst they can bring on the table, then thanks but I'll pass. I'm seriously considering not to play against Eldar in this edition again. What's your experience, if any? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307689-i-had-my-first-game-against-the-new-eldar/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlangWhanger Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 Oh wow... I've not played against them yet myself, but the manager at the local GW was trying to make semi-broken (with LOTS of Aspect Warriors) list for a laugh when the book came out. Even he was surprised... The main thing we found was how cheap and effective Aspect Warriors are! Five Howling Banshees for virtually the same as an un-upgraded Autarch? I know which one i'd want... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307689-i-had-my-first-game-against-the-new-eldar/#findComment-4044639 Share on other sites More sharing options...
vahouth Posted May 16, 2015 Author Share Posted May 16, 2015 Did I mention that the 15 dire avengers in particular shot at me 45 shurikens with bladestorm on a 2+ to hit? They move 6", run 6" and unload at 18". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307689-i-had-my-first-game-against-the-new-eldar/#findComment-4044658 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlangWhanger Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 ... Wow ... To be honest I still don't think I'd refuse to play an Eldar player. I'd probably see it as a challenge or make a sort of scenario out of it! Those players with disgusting armies I would give a very disapproving look and shake my head while tut-tutting slightly, but still play them... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307689-i-had-my-first-game-against-the-new-eldar/#findComment-4044667 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remtek Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 Those tournament restrictions kinda favor the new Eldar codex. Did the table have few LoS blocking terrain pieces? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307689-i-had-my-first-game-against-the-new-eldar/#findComment-4044669 Share on other sites More sharing options...
vahouth Posted May 16, 2015 Author Share Posted May 16, 2015 Almost all of the terrain pieces were forest area terrain (+5), with large gaps in between. That was also a huge thing, as he always had LoS to my units. I couldn't hide, and playing a MoW scenario each side had 24" to setup. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307689-i-had-my-first-game-against-the-new-eldar/#findComment-4044674 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remtek Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 We usually have atleast one large los blocker in the middle, 12" spacing of terrain and somewhat symterical on either side. 6 pieces, 2 area terrain 2 ruins and 1 los blocker plus some random stuff. Any shooty lists is gonna be a struggle with only forests. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307689-i-had-my-first-game-against-the-new-eldar/#findComment-4044694 Share on other sites More sharing options...
vahouth Posted May 16, 2015 Author Share Posted May 16, 2015 We usually have atleast one large los blocker in the middle, 12" spacing of terrain and somewhat symterical on either side. 6 pieces, 2 area terrain 2 ruins and 1 los blocker plus some random stuff. Any shooty lists is gonna be a struggle with only forests. Well, I had non of that, and I couldn't even say anything or I would risk bad sportmanship scores. I had to accept it with a smile. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307689-i-had-my-first-game-against-the-new-eldar/#findComment-4044929 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnorriSnorrison Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 I haven't had a single game with the new 'dex yet(I know, right?), yet the new Eldar seem to be very nasty. It also seems that your list is counter-productive against the pointy-ears. Are you foot-slogging the Tacticals? If so, may I suggest to give them drop pods and go heavy flamer, or grav if you're on the lookout for tanks. Same with the ASM, go full melta on these guys and drop at least one squad behind the pesky falcons and or fire prisms and unleash hell! Glance them to death if need be. 30 Guardians against dropping bolter marines means one big, bloody mess on turn 1, which should help you getting First Blood. Back in the day, I've never had much luck with psykers against Eldar, so usually I went for a chaplain and/or Captain(=Dante) to do the job. I'm not a fan of psykers in this edition, and certainly not as leaders for our armies - they die waaaay to easily, offering quick VP to your opponent. Baals, yes. One is almost never a good solution, try to run 2. I know they're a bit more lacklustre with the loss of scout, and I'd even say that one isn't dealing out enough damage to make a difference. I kind of feel that the amount of shots those fairies can dish out is way too much. You sure that was all conform to the rules? If so, damn. Just, damn, man. Anyways, try focusing on the tanks, and thin out infantry with your superior forces. Not sure if that will help, but that's what I'd do. Snorri Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307689-i-had-my-first-game-against-the-new-eldar/#findComment-4044994 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Aegis Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 I have only really found heavy drop pod lists, and the angels spearhead formation effective against eldar, and necron madness. Without an alpha strike, we are surprisingly easy to shoot off the table. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307689-i-had-my-first-game-against-the-new-eldar/#findComment-4045040 Share on other sites More sharing options...
vahouth Posted May 16, 2015 Author Share Posted May 16, 2015 I haven't had a single game with the new 'dex yet(I know, right?), yet the new Eldar seem to be very nasty. It also seems that your list is counter-productive against the pointy-ears. Are you foot-slogging the Tacticals? If so, may I suggest to give them drop pods and go heavy flamer, or grav if you're on the lookout for tanks. Same with the ASM, go full melta on these guys and drop at least one squad behind the pesky falcons and or fire prisms and unleash hell! Glance them to death if need be. 30 Guardians against dropping bolter marines means one big, bloody mess on turn 1, which should help you getting First Blood. Unfortunately the lists were finalized before the tournament started so I cannot change mine. But to tell you the truth, I kind of wanted a footslogging part in my army, to stay back, guard for enemy reinforcements and hold objectives on my side of the table. The jump packers were the fangs of my army, or rather the pincers that I planned to use and envelop my enemy. Unfortunately that didn't work because out of my 34 jump packs, I lost 17 on his first shooting phase, and with a 5+ cover save, FNP for 3 squads, and even Shield of Sanguinius in play. It was just brutal. In my 11 years in the game I've never, ever seen anything like it. This was the exact same list I had against an Eldar using the previous codex, that included a WK more reapers, and 3 D-Cannon platforms, and the game against him was a lot more manageable. Back in the day, I've never had much luck with psykers against Eldar, so usually I went for a chaplain and/or Captain(=Dante) to do the job. I'm not a fan of psykers in this edition, and certainly not as leaders for our armies - they die waaaay to easily, offering quick VP to your opponent. The Librarian was actually useful in this game because, believe it or not, he managed to stop all of his attempts to Doom my squads, and even the 3 warp charged Eldrich Storm! Imagine the horror if my units were also Doomed... Baals, yes. One is almost never a good solution, try to run 2. I know they're a bit more lacklustre with the loss of scout, and I'd even say that one isn't dealing out enough damage to make a difference. The Baal also worked, even alone, as it was what gave me Slay the Warlord, and the Assassinate Tactical objective, by snipping the lone Farseer. I kind of feel that the amount of shots those fairies can dish out is way too much. You sure that was all conform to the rules? If so, damn. Just, damn, man. Anyways, try focusing on the tanks, and thin out infantry with your superior forces. Not sure if that will help, but that's what I'd do. Snorri Yes, the amount of fire they can dish out is absolutely absurd! And with the help of Battle Focus and their Warhost Formation bonus of 6" run no matter what, they essentially transformed into jump infantry (Move 6", run 6" and shoot.)! Well, yeah, they're very flimsy, but that's of no use to you if you cannot get to them. For example, the War Walker of theirs, armed with 2 scatter Lasers, moves 6", unloads 8 str6 shots at 36" range AND runs back into cover or out of range. Because even though it has AV10, 2 HPs and a 5+inv save, it also has battle focus, so in most cases you cannot reach it. And even if you do, it merely costs 60pts... As for the other vehicles, they stay in the back and if not in cover already, jink, jink, jink...It doesn't even matter if they snap shoot at you in the next turn, because while you're focusing at them, the infantry is ripping you to shreds with bladestorm. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307689-i-had-my-first-game-against-the-new-eldar/#findComment-4045119 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 I know we have some really powerful blunt force units like DC, Sanguard, Van Vets etc but when you are against a list that mobile, that accurate and with that firepower, the fact they are squishy doesn't even really matter. I think the always run 6" and +1BS formation for Drie avengers is absolutely ridiculous to be honest.Also Shuriken weapons having rending is stupid too, really. I'm sorry, I don't care how advanced your tech was; a tiny metal disc does not breach 3 inch thick armored ceramite similar to that on a leman russ they should've just made the rule precision shots or something else not broken or actually interesting rather than "we pulp anything". It's a shame you couldn't bring a flyer, there is a chance a Raven might've helped you get a heavy flamer or assault unit in the right place. Then again Eldar get free skyfire missile launchers too so, what do I know I really want to start playing again but after seeing some of the locals in my nearest GW and these new eldar and even 'cron codexes I think I will be in for a real cheese board expereince! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307689-i-had-my-first-game-against-the-new-eldar/#findComment-4045267 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Unseen Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Sounds about like what people have been mathhammering or theory building about the new dex. And that wasn't even close to optimized eldar is what's sad. Also, maybe here I can get a reasonable response as to why people keep lumping necrons with the eldar? Necrons are my second army, (I apologize for my heresy) so maybe it's just me knowing the army well enough to pick it apart, but bar the decurion formation, what's so nasty? I don't see how being really hard to kill is comparable to being so incredibly mobile your impossible to catch, and can blow armies of the table better than guard could in 5th. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307689-i-had-my-first-game-against-the-new-eldar/#findComment-4045407 Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Having effectively re-rollable (invul) saves on everything, and basic weapons that autoglance and autowound has a lot to do with it. ;) It's certainly not as broken as eldar, but against almost anything you would consider a 'casual' list the new necrons are a lot like banging your head against a brick wall. If you haven't brought tons of S 8-10 fire power (preferably barrage) then prepare to get blown off the board while the 'cron player takes single digit casualties. Rolling buckets of dice to no effect isn't very stimulating for your opponent. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307689-i-had-my-first-game-against-the-new-eldar/#findComment-4045511 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnorriSnorrison Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Unfortunately the lists were finalized before the tournament started so I cannot change mine. But to tell you the truth, I kind of wanted a footslogging part in my army, to stay back, guard for enemy reinforcements and hold objectives on my side of the table. The jump packers were the fangs of my army, or rather the pincers that I planned to use and envelop my enemy. Unfortunately that didn't work because out of my 34 jump packs, I lost 17 on his first shooting phase, and with a 5+ cover save, FNP for 3 squads, and even Shield of Sanguinius in play. It was just brutal. In my 11 years in the game I've never, ever seen anything like it. This was the exact same list I had against an Eldar using the previous codex, that included a WK more reapers, and 3 D-Cannon platforms, and the game against him was a lot more manageable. Yeah, I reckon that's all good then. I usually have footslogging troops in my army as well, but over the times, most of them have been put into transports, haha! I feel your pain about losing most of your jumpers on the way in. It makes my heart cry a little tear for each marine that goes down to cowardly suppressing fire. How did you get FnP for three squads, though? Can't really surround a smart Eldar player. Bikes, Falcons, all that stuff is just too fast. And it seems that Dire Avengers now don't have to skip a turn of shooting after unleashing Bladestorm. That's really bad. The Librarian was actually useful in this game because, believe it or not, he managed to stop all of his attempts to Doom my squads, and even the 3 warp charged Eldrich Storm! Imagine the horror if my units were also Doomed... Yeah alright, that seems fair enough. Maybe it's because my rolling for the WC is ususally terrible. It was waaayy easier when rolling against LD10 would cast a power. Good on ya Libby then, I feel mine has no place in any of my lists anymore when the mandatory two HQ slots are taken by a Captain and a SP. The Baal also worked, even alone, as it was what gave me Slay the Warlord, and the Assassinate Tactical objective, by snipping the lone Farseer. Nice! Whenever I fielded a single Baal, it never made it past turn 2. I might have been playing against Tau for too long. Letting a Farseer wander off alone simply deserves a Baal-Assassination. Yes, the amount of fire they can dish out is absolutely absurd! And with the help of Battle Focus and their Warhost Formation bonus of 6" run no matter what, they essentially transformed into jump infantry (Move 6", run 6" and shoot.)! Well, yeah, they're very flimsy, but that's of no use to you if you cannot get to them. For example, the War Walker of theirs, armed with 2 scatter Lasers, moves 6", unloads 8 str6 shots at 36" range AND runs back into cover or out of range. Because even though it has AV10, 2 HPs and a 5+inv save, it also has battle focus, so in most cases you cannot reach it. And even if you do, it merely costs 60pts... As for the other vehicles, they stay in the back and if not in cover already, jink, jink, jink...It doesn't even matter if they snap shoot at you in the next turn, because while you're focusing at them, the infantry is ripping you to shreds with bladestorm. May I then advise a different sort of tactic? If the warwalker starts on the field, have an assault squad jump down and melta/boltpistol/grenade it to death as soon as possible. Even if it comes in from reserves, even better. Usually I deploy at least one squad in reserves and have them drop onto the field in later turns - prevents them from taking fire until they can actually do some damage. And, if that walker's hiding in cover, then your squad might be in cover as well to dodge the incoming firestorm next player turn. Well, you can't really change your list, and I don't know whether you're going to play this guy again...but if you manage to explode the falcons, there's a fair chance some of the elf-scum will vanish in the explosion! AV10 shouldn't be too hard to breach with Grav and meltas, even for jinking vehicles(it's a 3+ save?). Again, I'd just drop the assault squads and melta away. Tacticals in buildings/ruins, which might be difficult to get if you're on a tournament, to provide a firebase, and let them stay there. Against Eldar, I feel without fast, hard-hitting units all we can do is sit back and watch. Just my thoughts. Snorri Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307689-i-had-my-first-game-against-the-new-eldar/#findComment-4045580 Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 I wonder if 3-4 land raiders could work? At least ladestorm and scatterbikes can't touch them and d-weapon wraithguard means charge range for the cargo. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307689-i-had-my-first-game-against-the-new-eldar/#findComment-4045589 Share on other sites More sharing options...
vahouth Posted May 17, 2015 Author Share Posted May 17, 2015 @ Snorri I had 2 squads of DC and an ASM squad that went with the Librarian and the SP, so 3 squads with FNP. :) About your advice, I don't know yet if I can justify a ASM meltacide squad just for a 60pts walker... :\ Also grav weapons are actually somewhat hard to use at their vehicles, because they only work on a 6+ and they can also jink, or have a 5+ inv save. @knife&fork Eldar have a lot of lance weapons and even if a d-scythe wraithguard means charge range for the cargo, they can overwatch you with a d-template weapon! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307689-i-had-my-first-game-against-the-new-eldar/#findComment-4045616 Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 List idea for 2k-ish: 2 * ML 2 librarians with auspex and combi grav, veritas vitae on the warlord. Malefic daemonlogoy on the non WL libarian to get more units. Useful for movementblocking and screening. 2 * grav command squads in pods 3 * 10 man bare bones scout squads These probably go in the raiders, combat squad if needed. Can bubblewrap with a 5 man to guard from wraith weapons or eat the overwatch from one or more units with a disorganized assault. 3 * suicide AM squads, meltas or flamers + combi on the sarge. Mounted in pods. one librarian could ride with the melta squad in order to reduce cover. 3 * Land Raiders These should be relatively safe from 1st turn eldar shooting and together with the pods ensure that you don't get decimated should you go second. Partial to the phobos version since they can stay far away and still be effective. Lascannons are not good at actually killing things but great at forcing jinks. Unless I've missed something crucial the above should a least give us a fighting chance in a standard maelstrom mission? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307689-i-had-my-first-game-against-the-new-eldar/#findComment-4045631 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHelion Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 @knife&fork Eldar have a lot of lance weapons and even if a d-scythe wraithguard means charge range for the cargo, they can overwatch you with a d-template weapon! Ah, but they can't. To my knowledge, Wraithguard are Slow and Purposeful, ergo no overwatch whatsoever. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307689-i-had-my-first-game-against-the-new-eldar/#findComment-4045681 Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Ah, but they can't. To my knowledge, Wraithguard are Slow and Purposeful, ergo no overwatch whatsoever. That was 2 editions ago, they can overwatch just fine. Hence the need for sacrificial units. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307689-i-had-my-first-game-against-the-new-eldar/#findComment-4045688 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHelion Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Right you are, there. Must have gotten something muddled in my head. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307689-i-had-my-first-game-against-the-new-eldar/#findComment-4045741 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Having effectively re-rollable (invul) saves on everything, and basic weapons that autoglance and autowound has a lot to do with it. It's certainly not as broken as eldar, but against almost anything you would consider a 'casual' list the new necrons are a lot like banging your head against a brick wall. If you haven't brought tons of S 8-10 fire power (preferably barrage) then prepare to get blown off the board while the 'cron player takes single digit casualties. Rolling buckets of dice to no effect isn't very stimulating for your opponent. Pretty much this. They are both similar and opposite to Eldar in that they can really dish out the firepower, but instead of speed have resilience. but even then the skimmers, destroyers, tomb blades etc are all jet bikes so really no actual lack of mobility! Being able to glance any Armour to death with a basic trooper just feels wrong, to me, it's why I just don't ever really want to bring anything with an AV value past pods and dreads. Three lucky 6's from a basic warrior squad and it's gone? Not fun. Statistically out of a full 20 man warrior squad (if the max is 10 I apologise, not seen in a while!) you will get 4.4 6's on the pen rolls, that's a dead LR, let alone anything with less HP. Then when we come to shoot you back our biggest guns do well, nothing It's what I like to call the Vindicator problem: While they may effectively rob you of a squad, once they have advanced you are stripping the hull points off it toot-sweet. Thank god you are at least not the most competent assault army! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307689-i-had-my-first-game-against-the-new-eldar/#findComment-4045801 Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Thank god you are at least not the most competent assault army! well actually.... necrons are now very competent in assault. Never mind the dedicated assault units, the sheer durability and high LD makes close combat almost as ineffective as shooting. Unless you throw something like a CC dread (and good luck getting it into combat) or massed power weapons at them nothing happens and you get stuck. Units like DC and ASM are borderline useless vs necons now that RP is taken before combat resolution is calculated. Unless you luck out on the charge you can not only get stuck but also lose combat if it drags on. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307689-i-had-my-first-game-against-the-new-eldar/#findComment-4045828 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ming Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Well, to some extent the lack of terrain was a key point. If that is how the local gaming goes, you need to plan for it. My lists as a BA player always includes a drop element and a vehicle element, bracketing my assaul element. The vehicles are fast and provide cover to the dismounted jump units, especially in cases like this. The drop unit causes my opponent to react to it, and in the best case comes into destroy a key enemy unit before it can impact me. Other than that, watch out - with the eldar codex so powerful, it will attract those who are prone to WAAC, and who may misquote rules and effects to you for their advantage. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307689-i-had-my-first-game-against-the-new-eldar/#findComment-4045899 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Thank god you are at least not the most competent assault army! well actually.... necrons are now very competent in assault. Never mind the dedicated assault units, the sheer durability and high LD makes close combat almost as ineffective as shooting. Unless you throw something like a CC dread (and good luck getting it into combat) or massed power weapons at them nothing happens and you get stuck. Units like DC and ASM are borderline useless vs necons now that RP is taken before combat resolution is calculated. Unless you luck out on the charge you can not only get stuck but also lose combat if it drags on. ...oh :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307689-i-had-my-first-game-against-the-new-eldar/#findComment-4045952 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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