Oirghialla Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Something I find funny is that a howling banshee is 13 pts and has a power sword... The problem with Eldar for Blood Angels is that you often have to shoot them to death since they're so fast, but squishy if you catch them. In the recent game that I played against them, my stormraven with hurricane bolters could easily kill any eldar squad in one turn, but my Sanguinary Guard just ended up sitting objectives and soaking up fire... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307689-i-had-my-first-game-against-the-new-eldar/page/2/#findComment-4046337 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 My opponent had a farseer on a jet bike, 30 guardians + 3 eldar missile launchers, a war walker with 2 scatter lasers, a viper with shuriken cannon, 15 dire avengers shrine, 10 bansees and 3 dark reapers, all with exarch, a fire prism, 3 falcons with pulse lasers, scatter lasers and shuriken cannons and finaly a shadow weaver support battery. This seems like an awful lot for 1500? Has stuff really got that much cheaper in the new codex? Last edition: 120 - farseer on bike 330 - 30 guardians with ML 50 - Walker with scatters 50 - Vyper 210 - 3x 5 Avengers with exarchs 170 - 10 banshees with exarch 100 - 3 reapers with exarch 125 - Fire prism 390 - 3 falcons with scatter lasers and shuricans 30 - Shadow Weaver 1575. I guess stuff could have gotten this much cheaper? Although this is with no weapons on any exarchs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307689-i-had-my-first-game-against-the-new-eldar/page/2/#findComment-4046412 Share on other sites More sharing options...
vahouth Posted May 17, 2015 Author Share Posted May 17, 2015 My opponent had a farseer on a jet bike, 30 guardians + 3 eldar missile launchers, a war walker with 2 scatter lasers, a viper with shuriken cannon, 15 dire avengers shrine, 10 bansees and 3 dark reapers, all with exarch, a fire prism, 3 falcons with pulse lasers, scatter lasers and shuriken cannons and finaly a shadow weaver support battery. This seems like an awful lot for 1500? Has stuff really got that much cheaper in the new codex? Last edition: 120 - farseer on bike 330 - 30 guardians with ML 50 - Walker with scatters 50 - Vyper 210 - 3x 5 Avengers with exarchs 170 - 10 banshees with exarch 100 - 3 reapers with exarch 125 - Fire prism 390 - 3 falcons with scatter lasers and shuricans 30 - Shadow Weaver 1575. I guess stuff could have gotten this much cheaper? Although this is with no weapons on any exarchs. Here's his list with costs: 115 - farseer on bike 270 - 3x10 guardians with ML each (free upgrade) 60 - Walker with scatters (free upgrade) 40 - Vyper 205 - 3x5 Avengers with 1 exarch 150 - 10 banshees with exarchs 90 - 3 reapers with exarch 135 - Fire prism+ghostwalk matrix 405 - 3 falcons with scatter lasers, pulse lasers and shurikens 30 - Shadow Weaver Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307689-i-had-my-first-game-against-the-new-eldar/page/2/#findComment-4046441 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Unseen Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Thank god you are at least not the most competent assault army! well actually.... necrons are now very competent in assault. Never mind the dedicated assault units, the sheer durability and high LD makes close combat almost as ineffective as shooting. Unless you throw something like a CC dread (and good luck getting it into combat) or massed power weapons at them nothing happens and you get stuck. Units like DC and ASM are borderline useless vs necons now that RP is taken before combat resolution is calculated. Unless you luck out on the charge you can not only get stuck but also lose combat if it drags on. Take Mauls, they rip through warrior squads like nothing, and the higher str is better against just about everything else in the book bar immortals. And almost the entire codex is 24", but you have to be really careful to not hang out in that range band. But I look at my crons, even with the cheesiest decurion list I can come up with, and eldar just blow it off the table with massed fire, much less my favored sons of the angel. Edit: don't be scared of wraiths, throw a cheap unit at them that won't run away, don't bother shooting them if they have RP up till you kill the spyder that grants it. In response to the guy wanting to run 3 land raiders, their one wraithknight will kill 1 every turn across the board, fire dragon's in serpents will do the same close up, and any wraith units with kill the raider easily, and then overwatch anything in it to death. That's the problem with the book, any single facet is probably op, but not game breaking so, but combined, it's nuts. D weapons for MCs, heavy tanks, and super heavies, massed str 6 scatter lasers for long range, and bladestorm for what little manages to crawl across the table alive. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307689-i-had-my-first-game-against-the-new-eldar/page/2/#findComment-4046698 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Njjesters4 Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 I played and beat an eldar player with the new dex recently. We played 1850. I used a heavy drop pod list nod luckily went first. I couldn't get over how good everything is. And even though I wiped a ton of stuff off the board before he got to go the amount of shots his million jet bikes could put out was ridiculous. I don't think anything sucks in the codex but it is a really tough challenge to play them which can be fun Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307689-i-had-my-first-game-against-the-new-eldar/page/2/#findComment-4046761 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 I think what makes this all worse is knowing that we just got an update, where things weren't too radical, some were even kinda stupid (Sanguinor at ap3, whut?) and so we won't get any drastic changes to bring us up to "par" persae this edition. I'd also wager that the vanilla codex won't see too many major alterations, lest it leave us in the weird place of a new(ish) but over-costed codex once again :( let alone middling power tier. I can't blame GW for making Xenos the new hotness, will boost overall sales for sure. I do love our current codex though, don't worry! I think the only thing I could be considered salty about is our lack of "Decurion" and the bonuses/ flexibility and fluff-bility it offers. I suppose instead out entire army has +1S/I on the charge, but against high I Eldar that is not too incredible :P I've tried looking at our fluffy formations and well... Yeah, Battle Company? Demi Company? 90% of Exterminatus? All sorta garbage :/ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307689-i-had-my-first-game-against-the-new-eldar/page/2/#findComment-4046798 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ming Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 I agree on the BA choices for formations and detachments...I posted on my blog though that what if we were doing it wrong all along - Faction>>Detachment>>Formation>>Unit>>Model [Army>>Company>>Platoon>>Squad>>Soldier] When I first read the formation vs detachment language long ago, it seemed that you had to start you list with a detachment, and that a detachment was full of units, or collections of units grouped as formations. Now that we are seeing this employed in the new Necron and Eldar codexes, was that the original intent of the BRB authors and we just never understood it? Just wondering. Certainly would have helped us have better armies. Just food for thought. In my current games I have yet to play the new Eldar, but I keep in mind the concept of keeping a sacrificial unit nearby for every assault, just for that reason - having the ability to re-direct overwatch from my main assault unit. It means you do need to keep some of your assault clustered or better planned just for that reason. In a recent game - had a DC dread 12 inches from the assault target and declared the charge with that first - of course the assault charge dice failed me with the dread, but everything else made it into assault w/o losses, and with the assaulting units going at I5, S5, pretty much wiped the target unit out. I'd not want to charge D-template units with a DC dread, however...but demi-tactical squads or scouts are good for that.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307689-i-had-my-first-game-against-the-new-eldar/page/2/#findComment-4047744 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadMek83 Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 One thing I've found out my limited experience. Crons and Eldar players use mostly formations, BA still got their own and very last CAD. There for we can play have our troops objective secured while Eldar Battlehosts and Necron decurions can't. If they try to make objective contested with Jetbikes, tough luck man... That is one huge oversight I see games repeat. People forget what gives objective secured for the troops. One huge boost what BA has: ability to bring so many template weapons that will cause damage. Podding flamer, heavy flamer /combi or hand flamer tactical near warrior group or jetbike squadron of 3-6 will make more than enough damage to claim first blood. Fragiosos when using as second drop pod can create rather over whelming area with templates. Eldars are king of speed not even BA can answer that easily. So its always key thing for two things: How to set your army and where to make alpha strike. BA's win not because of their speed but because of their ways out thinking their enemies. That is crucial part especially against Eldars which are so powerful we need to use all and every their weakness and commanders weakness in our advantage and put out strength in use: Drop Pods, serious amount of flamers, speed for imperial army. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307689-i-had-my-first-game-against-the-new-eldar/page/2/#findComment-4047821 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Raul Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 I just read the new Eldar codex. Are you kidding me GW? What a load of absolute rubbish. Just as I was getting my faith back in the direction of balance that GW seemed to be taking they release a lil gem like that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307689-i-had-my-first-game-against-the-new-eldar/page/2/#findComment-4048986 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 One thing I've found out my limited experience. Crons and Eldar players use mostly formations, BA still got their own and very last CAD. There for we can play have our troops objective secured while Eldar Battlehosts and Necron decurions can't. If they try to make objective contested with Jetbikes, tough luck man... That is one huge oversight I see games repeat. People forget what gives objective secured for the troops.. Eldar and Crons can still use a CAD - or a Decurion style detachment. Up to them. Also, we only get ObjSec with the CAD - not the Baal Strike Force -so, i'm not exaaaaactly sure what you mean with "our own CAD". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307689-i-had-my-first-game-against-the-new-eldar/page/2/#findComment-4049043 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 One thing I've found out my limited experience. Crons and Eldar players use mostly formations, BA still got their own and very last CAD. There for we can play have our troops objective secured while Eldar Battlehosts and Necron decurions can't. If they try to make objective contested with Jetbikes, tough luck man... That is one huge oversight I see games repeat. People forget what gives objective secured for the troops.. Eldar and Crons can still use a CAD - or a Decurion style detachment. Up to them. Also, we only get ObjSec with the CAD - not the Baal Strike Force -so, i'm not exaaaaactly sure what you mean with "our own CAD". I'd wager Menchalior is just using "CAD" instead of "Detatchement", as shorthand if you will. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307689-i-had-my-first-game-against-the-new-eldar/page/2/#findComment-4049257 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_son_of_Dorn Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Dam, those Eldar, and i'm guessing there's no real chance to even try and get them tied up with a cc option if they get to call the first phase? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307689-i-had-my-first-game-against-the-new-eldar/page/2/#findComment-4049327 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bukimimaru Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Dam, those Eldar, and i'm guessing there's no real chance to even try and get them tied up with a cc option if they get to call the first phase? Firstly you would have to get into combat, those speedy space elves are one of the few armies that can totally outpace us. Then you have to contand with d-weapons that auto D3 hit on overwatch. Once you've somehow managed to catch them and somehow managed to survive the silly amount of insta-death hell, you might get a few hits off before their Wraithknight stomps the rest of your unit out of existence. :( The whole thing makes me a saaaad panda. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307689-i-had-my-first-game-against-the-new-eldar/page/2/#findComment-4049376 Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Firstly you would have to get into combat, those speedy space elves are one of the few armies that can totally outpace us. Then you have to contand with d-weapons that auto D3 hit on overwatch. Once you've somehow managed to catch them and somehow managed to survive the silly amount of insta-death hell, you might get a few hits off before their Wraithknight stomps the rest of your unit out of existence. You forgot that many of them have 'hit and run' as well :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307689-i-had-my-first-game-against-the-new-eldar/page/2/#findComment-4049699 Share on other sites More sharing options...
vahouth Posted May 19, 2015 Author Share Posted May 19, 2015 Warp spiders must be the most annoying unit by far as you simply cannot shoot at them anymore. You can try, but they'll flickerjump out of sight or range 2D6, every time you shoot at them! As it seems, Eldar no longer play W40k but another game altogether... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307689-i-had-my-first-game-against-the-new-eldar/page/2/#findComment-4049731 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 As it seems, Eldar no longer play W40k but another game altogether... Necrons play WH50K and Eldar play WH70K. Just remember, not every unit has all the special rules. Wraithguard with D-scythes are nasty but slow so bust their transports early and make them walk. Jetbikes carry mind boggling firepower at speed but are only as tough as a tactical marine. Pop a few plasma or krak missiles their way and they either die or jink (which buys you a bit of respite from their shooting). Wraithknights are scary but not indestructible, grav bikers will hurt them a lot. Even the Glaive variant only ignores invulnerable saves on a 6 so get in there with Hammernators (or TH/SS Vanguard) and grind them down in combat, particularly if buffed with rerolls or +1WS. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307689-i-had-my-first-game-against-the-new-eldar/page/2/#findComment-4049928 Share on other sites More sharing options...
vahouth Posted May 19, 2015 Author Share Posted May 19, 2015 As it seems, Eldar no longer play W40k but another game altogether... Necrons play WH50K and Eldar play WH70K. Just remember, not every unit has all the special rules. Wraithguard with D-scythes are nasty but slow so bust their transports early and make them walk. Jetbikes carry mind boggling firepower at speed but are only as tough as a tactical marine. Pop a few plasma or krak missiles their way and they either die or jink (which buys you a bit of respite from their shooting). Wraithknights are scary but not indestructible, grav bikers will hurt them a lot. Even the Glaive variant only ignores invulnerable saves on a 6 so get in there with Hammernators (or TH/SS Vanguard) and grind them down in combat, particularly if buffed with rerolls or +1WS. The Wraith Construct formation gives them all Battle Focus so, yeah....they're fast too. Also a single WK requires more than 20 Grav shots to be put down, 30 if in a 5+ cover. And how many points of grav weapons are needed to drop a less than 300pts model? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307689-i-had-my-first-game-against-the-new-eldar/page/2/#findComment-4050005 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatOneMarshal Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 Seemed like a slaughterhouse. However you didnt face off agaisnt the nastiest eldar army, of anything that one was pretty sane compared to the no friends list. Jet bikes all armed with scatter lasers, farseer, wraith knights,and wwp wraithguard Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307689-i-had-my-first-game-against-the-new-eldar/page/2/#findComment-4050325 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remtek Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 Had a game 1500 game last night, i think it was 5x3 scatter bikes and 4x3 DE bikes plus some swooping hawks a few venoms, the str5 ap3 ignore jink unit in a raider and some webway portal firedragons, it was hammer and anvil deployment and i went first. I didt know what codex i was facing so threw together a new list with what i had painted. Commander Dante Sanguinary PriestBike Fragioso with grapple Pod 6DC Fist JP 6DC Fist JP 10 Scouts close combat ASM 2 Melta Rhino ASM 2 Plasma Rhino ASM 2 Plasma Rhino 5 Bikesquad 2 Grav Combi-Grav Multimelta Attack Bike Multimelta Attack Bike Not a superdetailed batrep, but here it goes. I'm not to familiar with DE bikes, so i might be saying some wrong stuff. I moved flat out with most of my stuff turn 1 hiding DC, the fragioso doubletapped the raider killing 2 ravagers inside and stunned the raider, the drop pod killed one scatbike and the other two ran off the board. Lost 2 bikes to dangerous terrain, Eldar turn 1 shooting rolled slightly under avg, so didt loose too much, a mm bike and 1 or 2 bikes 2 hp on one of the rhinos. My next turn i moved the plasma rhinos 6 and killed a few bikes, all the stormbolters (4) did some wounds and i make another unit run off the board) The Fragioso was locked in combat with a single bike from previous turn, if i had killed 2 in close combat i would be able to shoot turn 2 with him, which would have been nice. The melta moved up 12 and managed to kill one bike snapfiring. I managed to kill quite a few bikes, but there were so many left. No turn two charges since he was hugging the board edge with the whole army. In the bottom of turn two he finished off the plas Rhino and killed 1 more bike 5-6 scouts and 2-3 DC, i managed to force some jinks which helped, but still alot of dakka. Both the MM attack bikes also died saving quite bad (but 3+ saves felt like avg. overall) He assaulted Dante with DE bikes and killed Dante with 3d6 rending HoW hits. I think it was 10 normal wounds and one rending, i rolled 3 ones for the normal hits and no fnp, failed the invul and fnp on the rending, so Dante died before getting to strike back. Loosing Dante too HoW was huge since they hit on 4's wound on 6's in normal combat (majority toughness) he would have tanked the other stuff fine. The priest did not take any wounds and managed to kill 3 bikes without a powerweapen, so he was going hero mode! The DE bikes hit'n'ran out post combat. Turn 3 was similar to the other turns, one DC managed to assault, but with the move-shoot-move it was hard to get close, i did not have a good shooting phase. In bottom of turn 3 we decided to call it, since i was close a turn 4 table was 95%. Overall impressions: ASM Rhino plasma did very well, being so cheap and annoying to take out. Sure Rhinos get glanced easy, but you still have to kill the marines after that so they tank quite well considering the points. Scouts should have infiltrated closer, since he could pretty much have targets regardless, and litte ap4 or lower. If he assaults them they will be further from his boardedge. Bikesquad was quite unlucky with terrain checks and Dante rolled many ones, hard to rate the unit, having more mobility than DC was really nice for setting up turn two. Attack bikes are always good, but didt face much armor. DC felt really slow this game, and with all the turbo boost i was never an optimist. Fragioso has some potential, but he can be denied with good deployment, so not sure on this one. Conclusion: I think it's important to have a few weapons that force the Eldar to spread out. 3 pods with Deathwinds would really help or something similar, with DC/scouts midfield they can catch flatout units turn 1/2. The Eldar list felt really strong, but with a Wraitknight and web-way portal Wraithguard d-flamers it would be devestating. Kill enough models to force leadership on bikes then move on to the next unit, LD8 is not that high (27% chanse to fail) and with defensive deployment it's 100% they run off the board. Los blocking is really hard on mobile units with long range, so decide early if you can hide enough units to make it worthwhile. I should of deployed DC as close as possible, not behind the rhino. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307689-i-had-my-first-game-against-the-new-eldar/page/2/#findComment-4050468 Share on other sites More sharing options...
vahouth Posted May 20, 2015 Author Share Posted May 20, 2015 I had 2 games this far in this tournament, both with Eldar and both I lost. This Friday I'm playing against a Necron player. Things aren't going well for the BAs as it seems... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307689-i-had-my-first-game-against-the-new-eldar/page/2/#findComment-4050479 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 This Friday I'm playing against a Necron player. I have played against Newcrons recently and hav a few pearls of wisdom to impart. Watch out for Destroyer Cult as they are vicous. Necrons are mediocre in CC and normally rely on armour + resurrection to outlast opponents. Assault with decent power weapons and Necrons will start going down. Watch out for Wraiths and Lycheguard/Praetorians with shields as they have a 3++ save. These are best taken out either with basic shooting or with DC for weight of attacks. Necrons have a lot of AP3 shooting but not much Ap2 so Sanguinary guard with a Priest for FNP should get across the board fairly easily. Grav, plasma and power weapons will be your friends. Vehicles are risky since all Gauss weapons glance on a 6. You may be better to rely on massed tough infantry. Sternguard are worth taking as Necrons have few 2+ save units so your special ammo should work well. Kraken rounds will deplete warriors and Flayed Ones at range without risking overheats. Hellfire is good for shooting Wraiths, Spyders and other oddball high toughness units. Many Necron vehicles rely on Quantumn Armour for protection which gives AV13 until a shot gets through, then they revert to AV11. Meltacide squads should be good for cracking the QS or any Monoliths. If he goes all-infantry (quite viable in a Decurion), just use the meltas against Destroyers or other tough units instead. Necron characters often take Warscythes which are +2S AP2 (normally S7) but have few attacks. They will not ID your characters so take invulnerable save wargear and challenge them out. Most characters are 3+ save so power weapons or lightning claws will do well. Power fists will not ID their T5 characters but will wound on a 2+ and get around all armour. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307689-i-had-my-first-game-against-the-new-eldar/page/2/#findComment-4050502 Share on other sites More sharing options...
vahouth Posted May 20, 2015 Author Share Posted May 20, 2015 Since it's a tournament, my list is finalised and all I can change is to removee the second ASM and add an Assault Terminator unit with TH/SS, which is included in the 250pts of changes I can have to my list. From what I remember about his list, he's got a Lord with R Orb and warscythe+the 3+Inv, 20 warriors, 10 immortals, 5 destroyers, 2 Monoliths, 2 H Destroyers, and 10 lychguard? (I think). He'll be playing CAD, not Decurion since he lacks the models. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307689-i-had-my-first-game-against-the-new-eldar/page/2/#findComment-4050564 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remtek Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 I'm not really upset with BA dex, they are on par with most codices, but like most of the Imperium we need to use allies to maximise our potential against xenos lists. That being said, i really like to run pure BA, but for tournaments you are handicapping yourself when not using allies. Wraithknight being way undercosted is disappointing, wraithguard would not be OP if they didt have webway-portal. It's frustrating that GW does not focus on balance, but having solid local groups can/should help mitigate this. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307689-i-had-my-first-game-against-the-new-eldar/page/2/#findComment-4050577 Share on other sites More sharing options...
krrenalor Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 Personally I would drop out of the Tournament, state "because I am using a crappy codex and can't compete I will be selling my army and playing Warmachine instead". Sell off your army and play by balanced rules were PLAYER knowledge and not some broken Codex establishes who wins. The BA codex is new, the Eldar codex is new, As for Charlo's comment "I can't blame GW for making Xenos the new hotness, will boost overall sales for sure" No it won't if we all quit the game due to GWs greed and selfishness not designing a balanced codex for fairness, I am not putting up with it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307689-i-had-my-first-game-against-the-new-eldar/page/2/#findComment-4053848 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 Can't tell if serious. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307689-i-had-my-first-game-against-the-new-eldar/page/2/#findComment-4053851 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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