I had my first game against the new Eldar...

[Charlo]

Gotta say, for your first post on the forum krrenalor, thats a doozy!

[knife&fork]

Meh, I kinda agree. Models are mostly really good these days. The game on the other hand is beyond messed up (the worst it's ever been as far as I can remember starting in RT). It's taking a toll on the community and for that matter GW sales.

Where I disagree is the notion that one should sell their stuff. I drift in and out of the hobby and I've never sold more than a fraction of my collection. If you tire of the game and the hobby just put you things in storage and do something else until you think things are fun again. It will most likely still be useful in some way many years down the road.

[vahouth]

The game with the Necron was a close one. I lost 9-8, at the end of the 6th turn, but I felt that I could win if some dice rolls were somewhat different...

And even though I faced off against the Lychguard of doom, they certainly didn't feel as broken as the Eldar.

Jesus!

[knife&fork]

The game with the Necron was a close one. I lost 9-8, at the end of the 6th turn, but I felt that I could win if some dice rolls were somewhat different...

And even though I faced off against the Lychguard of doom, they certainly didn't feel as broken as the Eldar.

Jesus!

 

What did you bring? Necrons are tough, so it's always good to hear some success stories. :)

[vahouth]

My list was:

Librarian + jp + Gallian's Staff + Crown Angelic + Meltabombs

Sanguinary Priest + jp + bolt pistol + valour's edge + auspex

2x6 DC + jp + pf + pw each

5 assault termies + 4TH/SS

2x10 tacticals + gravgun + heavy flamer each

10 asm + jp + veteran sgt with pf, and melta/flamer.

Baal pred with Assault Cannon+ heavy bolters + storm bolter.

The Librarian rolled Blood Boil and Wings of Sanguinius along with Quickening.

His list was:

An Overlord with warscythe, R Orb, a 4+ inv, and the other orb that allows RP with a +1 modifier.

10 Lychguard with warscythes

10 immortals with gauss blasters

10 warriors

6 Canoptek wraiths

2 Heavy Destroyers

2 Monoliths

By the end of the game, he still had 1 monolith, 5 immortals and his Overlord with 9 Lychguards (the undying!!!).

[Morticon]

Little bit miffed that post didnt see the report button hit, just as a heads up to us.  But, ya....not particularly constructive or in line with the BA forum ethos, sadly.

 

Don't agree with the Krennalor, but am very upset with the Eldar rules. Will adapt and survive and play better. 

[Charlo]

But am very upset with the Eldar rules. Will adapt and survive and play better.

Aye Mort, it's what we do best.

I think even the D Spam is tolerable - in my honest opinion I think the +BS/WS on Aspects, Spider Escape jump and mainly Bladestorm (plus sort of undercosted Knight) that breaks it.

Also, are all guardians BS4 now? Really don't see the need for that change. War Walkers, Vypers, Batteries all got uneeded buffs I suppose.

Jetbikes should be 4+ also, but now I'm just wish-listing

Let's hope the Vanilla-dex doesn't blow us out of the water and into "allies to bring BA Flavour"

[Morticon]

Eldar got the +1 BS (lol) last edition though!

 

But yes, all of the above.  

[Charlo]

Oops. My bad. Been a bit since I played or paid attention to the foul Xenos.

 

I guess GW liked the fluffy black Guardians out of the incredible Eye of Terror Dex and made it so all craft world's have an elite force of guardians in leiu of thier Aspects! ... But with Aspects!

[Ming]

It seems funny that the community is turning the Eldar release into a FAIL.  I'm noticing that many 40K sites that like to show video batreps are purposefully not showcasing Eldar (so no free advertising).  My local players who have existing Eldar armies are not buying more models, and seem to have shelved their armies out of embarrassment.  

 

As for me, a Blood Angels Player, I say bring it on!  I can imagine if I had an Eldar sparing partner, I could turn those frowns into grins in a few games and list changes.  

 

I'm not surprised about the Eldar codex.  It happens once a year or so to have a book that comes out that creates this much angst.  Been there, seen it before, seen it get surprised and defeated at national events.  

 

I played in a Tournament this weekend - the Fratris Salutem Narrative Event - and the player who crushed all before him was the "other" Blood Angels Player - and we fought it out in Game 2 - his list was all drop pod plus scouts, no Librarian, CAD.  My list was half jump, Half mech, with a Librarian, shield of Baal.  He won in a scenario that was clearly in his favor (not maelstrom).  Overall, his was a good solid list and countered the missions very well - more or less at 1500 points:

 

Captain with hammer  

5 Command Squad with apoth and champion, PGs

10 Tac Squad, 2xMelta

10 Tac Squad, HF/FL

5 Scout Squad

10 Devastator Squad, 2xLC/2xPC

Furioso Dread, FragCann, MM

5 drop pods

5 TH/SS terminators

 

Mine of course - 

Librarian (level 2), FS, 1xPP, jump packs

Sanguinary priest, PA, jump packs

5 Sanguinary Guard, PF, 2xIP, jump packs

6 DC, PF, PA, PS, jump packs

5 Tacs, FL, las-plas razorback

5 Tacs, FL, las-plas razorback

10 Assault squad, 2xMG, 1xIP, jump packs

5 meltacide squad, pod

Baal Pred, TLAssCann, 2xHB

Predator, AutoCann, 2xHB

[Malharath]

Personally I would drop out of the Tournament, state "because I am using a crappy codex and can't compete I will be selling my army and playing Warmachine instead". Sell off your army and play by balanced rules were PLAYER knowledge and not some broken Codex establishes who wins. The BA codex is new, the Eldar codex is new.

If you feel this way, why are you on a GW forum? Gw games have always had balance issue and always will. I played Tomb Kings through 6th and 7th. I probably had more losses in that time than at any other point in my gaming time. But, every win was so so sweet. Im still playing, still enjoying the game. You can always make your opponent screw up.

[Zhukov]

If this is not even close to the worst they can bring on the table, then thanks but I'll pass. I'm seriously considering not to play against Eldar in this edition again.

And that wasn't even close to optimized eldar is what's sad.

I think it's important to note here that the difference between non-optimised and optimised Eldar/Necron lists aren't as big as the difference between non-optimised and optimised BA lists (Due to literally pretty much all their units being good, they can almost take whatever they want and still have a very reasonable list, the Blood Angels codex suffers from way more limited viable options). With all respect, your list is too weak to realisticly expect to compete with Eldar or Necrons. Are they too strong? Yes, arguably, but it's not as bad as you make it out to be.

 

Basicly, the problem is not so much Eldar/Necrons as also your Blood Angels list and maybe Blood Angels in general.

 

Again, no offense meant, but it's better to look at what's wrong with your own army and/or play if you intend on competing in tournaments. If you're just playing to have fun, no problem, then I can imagine you don't want to play against Eldar/Necrons.

[knife&fork]

For the reasons stated above I'd say Eldar (and to some extent 'crons) are worse for the casual player than the tournament goer.

 

When you attend a tournament you have a specific rule set, scenario and meta to work around. Even if you aren't going for the win you should end up matched against lists around your power level after one or two losses.

 

For casual games the new codex is terrible. Some people like to claim that GW has never had a balanced rule set, which is true. But C:CE is broken on a level never before seen in 40k history. Things like 4th ed nob stars and 5th ed leafblowers or GK were much more manageable.

[Remtek]

We mostly play casual games, if i'm bringing flyers or a competitive list i tell my opponent before hand. Sometimes we play hard lists other times soft. I'm not really expecting GW to make solid rules or balance any time soon, but speaking with your local community can really help resolve these issues. Most players don't really just want to stomp softer lists. The fluff and models is what makes 40k so fun, the rest can be resolved if the local community makes an effort.

 

Running the combined ITC maelstorm/normal missions also really help as you can still out-msu a power lists if thats your thing. The good thing about the Eldar units is they have a lot of decent choices so they are not forced to spam scatbikes, wraithguard or WK's.

[Jolemai]

Flyers still need spoilers? Really?

[Remtek]

Not really, but if you bring a lot of them it's really boring to play against without any AA. Still doable, but the game becomes less interesting when you can plan ahead with less x-factors. That was just an example, but most people want to play an even match with lot's of carnage of both sides.

[Golden Aegis]

I usually try to bring 4k worth of points to the shop, enough to play my competitive list, and another with a list/models that I find to be more fun. We have a player, or two who love to bring the cheesiest things they can think of, so I do have a list to try and combat those players in particular.

[nevaenuffbass]

Wow. What a thread.

 

I have new eldar book, and yeah, it's tough. Maybe a sign of things to come.

 

In terms of beating them - the storm raven x3 formation that allows deep strikers could do well. So could pod lists.

 

In terms of the game - comp has existing since 4ed. Maybe longer. I think we are getting better at creating balance through either formal or informal comp. look at the "community comp" website for an example.

 

I'm hoping that what the new eldar book brings is a broad acceptance of the need for comp among the community. Look at blood bowl since the fans took over the rules - by far the most balanced GW game I've ever seen.

[Jolemai]

Other than the odd throwaway comment, so far I have refrained from posting on here regarding the actual discussion. Our forum last had something like this when Codex: Imperial Knights was released. Here's how I started my post on there:

 

 

Brothers, have courage.

• Did our ancestors scream "NERF!" when Ka'Banda broke our father's back?
• Did Sanguinius himself call the amassing Traitors outside the Imperial Palace "OP!", or did he call for a GM when the arch-heretic was using a cheat code on his battle barge?
• More recently, did the late Brother-Captain Eramus Tycho of the third company cry (anything other than manly tears of joy) at the tide of Xenos filth on Armageddon?

The answer is no, they did not.

Take a loss on the chin and learn from it. Work out their weakness and evolve your "all comers" army lists to be able to exploit them for if they cannot, then they aren't worthy of being called "all comers". Alternatively, tailor a list to specifically beat them and wipe the smile of your smug opponent's face.

 

I feel no different about the Eldar Codex as I do about any other Codex that has been released. There are so many factors involved in 40k these days which may contribute to your downfall and each one can be mitigated through (amongst other things) preparation, knowledge and even form. I fully expect almost all of us got mullered when we first played against a new book, but with each battle we learn more and thus, we must evolve to fully overcome each obstacle in our way.

 

While I don't believe our Codex is weak and feel that mono-BA can still hold it's own, I am beginning to believe that the Xenos races are supposed to be more powerful then us. Why? Because they can only rely on themselves. Armies of the Imperium have a plethora of options at their disposal, each that synergise fantastically with our own forces and it is this method that addresses the balance.

[Ushtarador]

Well, actually the new eldar and necron codices are AMAZING. Every unit in those books has a place and a role, and none of them feel sub-par at all. Just imagine a marine codex where tactical terminators, scout bikes and rhinos become things you can play without feeling silly :/

I think it's important to note here that the difference between non-optimised and optimised Eldar/Necron lists aren't as big as the difference between non-optimised and optimised BA lists (Due to literally pretty much all their units being good, they can almost take whatever they want and still have a very reasonable list, the Blood Angels codex suffers from way more limited viable options).

Very true. Playing against those books just reminds us how many underperforming units we still have in our codex, whereas those guys can almost bring whatever they want and it will still perform well. I am very sad that the BA book was the last one before this paradigm change, and I don't have much hope that we will be brought up to speed any time soon.

But that's the way it is, for competitive tournaments I haven't played codex BA in a long while anyway, and for casual games I just bring very optimized BA lists to when playing against the new books, still ends up in a fair fight usually also, bringing allies should no longer be viewed as unfair when playing an imperial faction, and they go a long way in leveling the playing field!

[Ming]

Was watching our local White scars Player take on our local 40K Savant playing Eldar plus Harly Allies...when I left it was turn 3 and the White Scars were losing, around 11-7 in Maelstrom points.  No D weapons were being played...In part, the White Scars were losing because they spread across the deployment zone, did not concentrate their fires, and instead of assaulting, allowed themselves to get assaulted, when the better thing to do would be to move back and keep shooting.  The Eldar and Harlies were higher I, with many AP3 weapons.  You can see how that went...when the White Scar bikers did actually shoot, they caused lots of wounds.  He was successful in taking down the Avatar, 2 out of 3 Harly characters, and a unit of banshees and a unit of jetbikes, but he was pretty depleted at that point.  The terrain was pretty thick.  The points for his predator and scouts could have been better spent on cover-ignoring whirlwinds or straffing run stormtalons.  He had some tactical terminators too, but they had been held in reserves.  As for the eldar player, he's lucky he can remember all the crazy rules and upgrades for his units.    

[Remtek]

Windriders are actually not that OP, it's just a high variance unit. If they go first their OP, if you go first they are overcosted (30ish points). Still annoys me that they are troop slot, but it's managable to deal with them. 

[vahouth]

How do you deal with a mechanised wraith host list, with lots of falcons d wraithguard and a knight?

[Morticon]

Guys, keep it to BA specific advice on codex eldar, or we may need to shut it down.

 

[Jolemai]

Little bit miffed that post didnt see the report button hit, just as a heads up to us.  But, ya....not particularly constructive or in line with the BA forum ethos, sadly.

 

Don't agree with the Krennalor, but am very upset with the Eldar rules. Will adapt and survive and play better.

Haha, it's not in line with the BA ethos to report things and give you work to do!

 

Anyway, why are you so upset with the rules? I'm pretty certain it wont stop your rampage.