I had my first game against the new Eldar...

[Ushtarador]

How do you deal with a mechanised wraith host list, with lots of falcons d wraithguard and a knight?

Demeching is hard because eldar tanks are very survivable. However, a falcon with wraithguard is quite expensive too. I would suggest fielding many small units, so he has no "nice" targets for his wraithguard. Then once he is out of the transport, shoot them or tie them up in cc (charge with a sacrificial unit first).

Against the wraithknight honestly the only thing that really helps is grav. If it is the cc version, you might bring a knight of your own to level the field a bit, if it is the shooty version don't bother bringing vehicles or expensive single models. In general I don't think it's quite fair to bring an undercosted gargantuan creature against someone who has no access to something like that

[vahouth]

 

How do you deal with a mechanised wraith host list, with lots of falcons d wraithguard and a knight?

 

Demeching is hard because eldar tanks are very survivable. However, a falcon with wraithguard is quite expensive too. I would suggest fielding many small units, so he has no "nice" targets for his wraithguard. Then once he is out of the transport, shoot them or tie them up in cc (charge with a sacrificial unit first).

Against the wraithknight honestly the only thing that really helps is grav. If it is the cc version, you might bring a knight of your own to level the field a bit, if it is the shooty version don't bother bringing vehicles or expensive single models. In general I don't think it's quite fair to bring an undercosted gargantuan creature against someone who has no access to something like that ;)

That's part of the problem, they're not that expensive. A falcon with pulse lasers, scatter lasers and shuriken cannons is 135pts only!

Also a wraithguard unit in formation is super fast, as it can move each turn 12" and shoot. T6 is a bitch and when you attempt to get in cc with them, they D flame you to death.

As for the WK, you'll need more than 30 grav shot to realistically put him down when he's in cover,so...

[Zhukov]

Just a heads-up: Wraithguard can't ride in Falcons, so I assume they're riding in Wave Serpents?

 

It's really rough as Wraithguard with D-scythes delete any kind of infantry you throw at them, I suggest Stormravens as BA or full Mech at this point. AC/Las Preds and Las/Plas Razors are pretty effective against a Wraith based list. You try to outshoot them at range, you cannot get close to D-scythe Wraithguard unfortunately. 

 

Are you playing with unmodified Strenght D? If you play with a nerfed version of it, then an allied shooty Knight works well against Eldar. The 470 point version with Rapid Fire Battlecannon, 3 shot Missile launcher and 12 shot S6 Ap3 rending (cast prescience on it with a libby if possible).

 

That's part of the problem, they're not that expensive. A falcon with pulse lasers, scatter lasers and shuriken cannons is 135pts only!

 

A Pred with 2 Lascanons and an AC with overcharged engines and dozerblade (take the dozer!) is only 130. It will win a direct shoot-out with a Falcon, the S6 can't touch the front armour of the Pred, so it's 2x S8 against Av13 versus 2x S9 and 2x S7 versus Av12. In other words: Preds are good against Falcons!

[vahouth]

First of a, Wraithguard cannot take falcons as dedicated transports but can ride them if the unit is only 3 models.

Also the falcon is fast skimmer with jink, so it is already very manouverable and survivable. Plus, when taken as a squadron of 3, they can DS without scatter, so it's really easy to get the side or rear armor of said predator. And don't forget that the cargo can also easily erase any vehicle you throw at them.

[Jolemai]

Have you seen the footprint of three Deep Striking Faclons? Secondly, where is your Interceptor fire? Thirdly what are you doing leaving that much space behind your Predator for three Falcons to arrive in?

[Zhukov]

First of a, Wraithguard cannot take falcons as dedicated transports but can ride them if the unit is only 3 models.

Also the falcon is fast skimmer with jink, so it is already very manouverable and survivable. Plus, when taken as a squadron of 3, they can DS without scatter, so it's really easy to get the side or rear armor of said predator. And don't forget that the cargo can also easily erase any vehicle you throw at them.

Minimum squad size of Wraithguard is 5. I doubt the issue is here that you shoot down exactly 2 members, the 3 remaining get in a Falcon next turn and then the turn after they disembark. Or is it?

 

That's a 375 point unit shooting down 1 Predator. That's acceptable. Which cargo? Are there Fire Dragons in it? Then at this point we're speaking about what kind of army exactly?

 

Don't play the boogyman game please with imaginative scary armies. A Mechanized (So Serpents) Wraithhost with D-scythe Wraithguard costs 1445 points minimum! 3 Falcons would bring that to 1820, so that is all there is. Is that the exact army?

 

If the Wraithguard are not in Serpents, then they start on foot, which makes them not a problem at all, unless they also run 6" by use of the Craftworld Warhost, but in that case the army needs another obligatory detachment, making it impossible to include Falcons. Unless we're speaking 2500 points, in which case I'm out as I don't deal with that kind of 40k.

[knife&fork]

All of these sounds like non issues to me. If anyone brings wraithguard with the intention of making a somewhat effective list they will ride in WWP allied transports. 

 

Saying that predators will have a chance to out-shoot eldar is frankly very hard to believe. They'll get glanced to death (because the front AV13 arc is relatively small) or failing that popped by D-weapons by either the WWP wraithguard or a wraithknight (most likely buffed by fortune which you have no chance to stop unless you bring a culexus and alpha strike it). Unless we are talking about Land raiders or land speeders you pretty much have to assume that the wraithknight will remove two AV units every turn it's still alive.

 

 

I heard that there was a BA /skitarii list recently that did well and won a larger tournament, anyone got an idea what was in that?

Wonder if that player found a really good combo or lucked out in the drawings. 

[Zhukov]

All of these sounds like non issues to me. If anyone brings wraithguard with the intention of making a somewhat effective list they will ride in WWP allied transports.

Saying that predators will have a chance to out-shoot eldar is frankly very hard to believe. They'll get glanced to death (because the front AV13 arc is relatively small) or failing that popped by D-weapons by either the WWP wraithguard or a wraithknight (most likely buffed by fortune which you have no chance to stop unless you bring a culexus and alpha strike it). Unless we are talking about Land raiders or land speeders you pretty much have to assume that the wraithknight will remove two AV units every turn it's still alive.

I heard that there was a BA /skitarii list recently that did well and won a larger tournament, anyone got an idea what was in that?

Wonder if that player found a really good combo or lucked out in the drawings.

Hey, I was suggesting ideas against the kind of Eldar list he described Wraithknight still needs to hit and does not ignore cover unless he rolls a 6, it is not that bad. Giving Eldar a Land Raider to kill would be worse don't you agree?

Yes, it has little to do with playing actual Blood Angels, it is simply using BA as a way to get acces to 6 Drop Pods, filled with Vanguard and/or a unit of Centurions (if 3 detachments are allowed).

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Guardian-Cup-Ocho-A-Bridge-too-Far.pdf

Edit: This is the list when 2 detachments were allowed, it has a bit more BA in it ^^

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Skitarii-and-BA-Storm-of-Silence-2015-1850.pdf

[knife&fork]

Rarely will a BA tank have better than a 5+ cover and the wraithknight will have rerolls. LR at least is immune to pretty much all T1 non D shooting you are likely to face in an eldar list (I don't think people will go crazy with falcons or lance platforms) and also has a better shot at surviving the 2-5 results on the D-table. 

[vahouth]

 

First of a, Wraithguard cannot take falcons as dedicated transports but can ride them if the unit is only 3 models.

Also the falcon is fast skimmer with jink, so it is already very manouverable and survivable. Plus, when taken as a squadron of 3, they can DS without scatter, so it's really easy to get the side or rear armor of said predator. And don't forget that the cargo can also easily erase any vehicle you throw at them.

 

Minimum squad size of Wraithguard is 5. I doubt the issue is here that you shoot down exactly 2 members, the 3 remaining get in a Falcon next turn and then the turn after they disembark. Or is it?

 

That's a 375 point unit shooting down 1 Predator. That's acceptable. Which cargo? Are there Fire Dragons in it? Then at this point we're speaking about what kind of army exactly?

 

Don't play the boogyman game please with imaginative scary armies. A Mechanized (So Serpents) Wraithhost with D-scythe Wraithguard costs 1445 points minimum! 3 Falcons would bring that to 1820, so that is all there is. Is that the exact army?

 

If the Wraithguard are not in Serpents, then they start on foot, which makes them not a problem at all, unless they also run 6" by use of the Craftworld Warhost, but in that case the army needs another obligatory detachment, making it impossible to include Falcons. Unless we're speaking 2500 points, in which case I'm out as I don't deal with that kind of 40k.

Sorry, my bad. I somehow thought that the minimun model count for wraithguard was 3 not 5, that's why I spoke of Falcons as transports.

You're wrong about the minimum points cost of a wraith host though.

Spiritseer and 3 units of wraithguard with D Scythes, is 580.

Wraithlord & Wraithknight, 415.

3 Wave Serpents upgraded with shuriken Cannons and Eldar Missile Launchers cost 405.

All those units cost 1400 points. If the Serpents come with no upgrades, you'll be able to also fit 3 Falcons or Fire Prisms or even one more unit of Wraithguard in a Serpent, for 1750 points games.

If you prefer the 6" run move, then a Guardian Battleforce can also fit under 2000 points.

IMHO though, the warhost is the most difficult to deal with.

[Zhukov]

Rarely will a BA tank have better than a 5+ cover and the wraithknight will have rerolls. LR at least is immune to pretty much all T1 non D shooting you are likely to face in an eldar list (I don't think people will go crazy with falcons or lance platforms) and also has a better shot at surviving the 2-5 results on the D-table. 

Cool, you favour a Land Raider instead of 2 Predators, each to his own I guess! 

 

 

Sorry, my bad. I somehow thought that the minimun model count for wraithguard was 3 not 5, that's why I spoke of Falcons as transports.

You're wrong about the minimum points cost of a wraith host though.

Spiritseer and 3 units of wraithguard with D Scythes, is 580.

Wraithlord & Wraithknight, 415.

3 Wave Serpents upgraded with shuriken Cannons and Eldar Missile Launchers cost 405.

All those units cost 1400 points. If the Serpents come with no upgrades, you'll be able to also fit 3 Falcons or Fire Prisms or even one more unit of Wraithguard in a Serpent, for 1750 points games.

If you prefer the 6" run move, then a Guardian Battleforce can also fit under 2000 points.

IMHO though, the warhost is the most difficult to deal with.

 

No problem. 

No, it costs 700, not 580. Wraithguard with Dscythes are 210 per squad.

 

Do realise that fitting 3 Falcons in it makes the list Unbound, same for Prism Tanks or more Wraithguard units. All of these aren't formations.

 

I agree, putting them in a Warhost instead makes it very hard to deal with! That means the Wraithguard on foot most likely though, but with the 6 inch run move this still makes them hard to handle for BA. 

[Remtek]

Infantry/cheap transports and no expensive units (over 200 points) seems like the best way to approach Eldar. Wraithknight and Wraithguard are not that effective vs said targets. After playing a round against a jetbike lists i kinda feel like you need atleast 3 pods with deathwind ML's. This will force many units midfield where your assault units will be controlling.

 

I'm not sure whats ideal to put in pods, but atleast one with melta and one with flamers. If allying Skitari vanguard in pods can put a hurt on Wraithknights or other wound models + you can take the haywire upgrade.  AS BA only some flamers, melta + the deathwind should force quite a few leadership tests turn 1, what i'm worried about is them reserving everything except the wraitknight. I guess it really depends on who goes first.

 

I'm sure there will be a large mix of Eldar lists since many lists types are viable now. Stormravens with  hurricane sponsons should be something thats pretty safe. Perhaps 2 Stormravens with 20 scouts combat squadded? Turn 3 you can charge up too 4 targets? Put Dante in for some re-serve rerolls thats 900 points or so for flyers scouts and Dante. I really don't feel like spending more than 400 points on pods unless i'm bringing allies which leaves me with 450 points for some msu DC a cheap HQ and some bikes?

 

I'm sure there will be more games vs Eldar soon, playing against them is so much more effective then list hammering since it's so much harder to plan vs fast armies. 

[knife&fork]

 

Cool, you favour a Land Raider instead of 2 Predators, each to his own I guess! 

 

 

I see no merit in doubling up on what I consider free KPs for the eldar player. With the LR at least you have something that demands the attention of the heavy guns. Rhinos on the other hand are cheap and provide protection from the first barrage.

 

 

Infantry/cheap transports and no expensive units (over 200 points) seems like the best way to approach Eldar. Wraithknight and Wraithguard are not that effective vs said targets. After playing a round against a jetbike lists i kinda feel like you need atleast 3 pods with deathwind ML's. This will force many units midfield where your assault units will be controlling.

 

 

Since the jetbikes have a 3+ save, why do you think these pods would be effective? It's a lot like facing off against mobile marines, so not very scary unless you have some kind of ignore cover AP3 shooting.  

[Ming]

So, from a load-out standpoint...is it better for a podded Blood Angels meltacide squad sergeant to have two inferno pistols, or a scanner (to reduce cover/jink saves by 1) and a meltabomb? (assuming two meltaguns are in the squad).   Or, as a loophole, can he use a scanner and a pistol?  (IIRR he uses the scanner or shoots)...In general, the same question for others who can carry the scanners...considering jetbike/mech eldar can jink pretty much everything, is it better to modify or eliminate the jink entirely?  A Scorpius Whirlwind with the relic/battle honors that eliminates cover saves anyone?

[Jolemai]

Currently, only characters may take an Auspex.

[Ming]

Currently, only characters may take an Auspex.

Maybe so but...in WD when they had the issue that showcased the new tactical box, they modeled a Sergeant with an Auspex....Grins...

[Jolemai]

Aye, there's been an Auspex in the vanilla Tactical box since it was released - and that was before Auspexes were reintroduced to the game!

[Remtek]

 

Infantry/cheap transports and no expensive units (over 200 points) seems like the best way to approach Eldar. Wraithknight and Wraithguard are not that effective vs said targets. After playing a round against a jetbike lists i kinda feel like you need atleast 3 pods with deathwind ML's. This will force many units midfield where your assault units will be controlling.

 

 

Since the jetbikes have a 3+ save, why do you think these pods would be effective? It's a lot like facing off against mobile marines, so not very scary unless you have some kind of ignore cover AP3 shooting.  

 

 

Cause you don't have to kill many to force leadership checks and there is a 28%ish chanse that they fail that and being that close to table edge they are sure to run off the board. I wiped a unit with a mere stormbolter, granted thats unlikely in a vaccum if you try and try again they loose a few and fail morale. I dropped a single Fragioso that did pretty well before getting haywired turn 3, once the plasma asm rhinos arived they were dropping 1-2 bikes every turn or forcing units to jink. Just doing small jabs at the scatterbikes is actually very effective.  I kept thinking if i had 3 pods with deathwinds things would be so much easier, since they castle so well with assault moves and battle focus forcing them to reposition really helps for the rest of the armies. 

 

On second thought i think flamer pods might be a mistake, plasma was the MVP that game as far as shooting goes.

[Bartali]

For the reasons stated above I'd say Eldar (and to some extent 'crons) are worse for the casual player than the tournament goer.

 

When you attend a tournament you have a specific rule set, scenario and meta to work around. Even if you aren't going for the win you should end up matched against lists around your power level after one or two losses.

 

For casual games the new codex is terrible. Some people like to claim that GW has never had a balanced rule set, which is true. But C:CE is broken on a level never before seen in 40k history. Things like 4th ed nob stars and 5th ed leafblowers or GK were much more manageable.

 

It's the pick up game that's died a death. I stopped going to my local club as I just wasn't getting any enjoyment from games.

I find games amongst close friends fine. As long as you realise the rules are horribly unbalanced and winning/loosing at 40k is about as significant as winning/loosing at snakes & ladders, you can relax and enjoy the social side.

 

Re Eldar. Bar Scatbikes and Wraithknights, it's actually a really good codex. Every unit can be used, and they've made a real effort with fixing a lot of stuff re Aspects and balancing things out. Reminds me of the 5th ed BA codex in a way.

 

For current BA it's going to be an uphill struggle, even if the Eldar player tones it down a bit. They're faster than BA and have more guns - never a good thing. Sadly it feels like BA are at the end of life cycle for the codex already - using durable units that you hope can survive and play for mission objectives

[MadMek83]

Against Eldars BA is struggling, which is sad considering our codex is about 6 months old. That means if this power transition continues, in about year BA is completely out classed by tournaments by great margin. There is no way new Marine Codex is not great leap forward in terms of power. Eldars have always been one of the strongest armies. Only real slope they had when they never gotten 5th edition codex but had to use 4th edition codex... 

 

But in a firestorm weak shall die and only strong shall survive, which means, BA players will continue getting better and better, as we forced to out play, use tactics against our enemies.

[Charlo]

Remember a simpler time when we got our codex and we're happy about 3 point jump packs for DC and the BSF Initiative boost?

 

I do, because it was only 6 months!!

 

One thing I can say is that if we get the free sky fire missiles on our Devs they could help bust open the falcons and such.

 

Also four missile Devs are quite versatile against eldar, they can threaten the tanks, force bike jinks, knock out wraith units fairly well too!

[Ming]

Hey, back to the Auspex... 5 points, 12 inch range...does not count as shooting...can be any unit in range...the target is -1 cover for the shooting phase...so it seems you could get your character close and select any enemy unit in range...and then open up on it w all other guns in range...and it could stack w other auspexes...so...put it on the sanguinary priest instead of a pistol?

[Leonaides]

Yep...

[vahouth]

Hey, back to the Auspex... 5 points, 12 inch range...does not count as shooting...can be any unit in range...the target is -1 cover for the shooting phase...so it seems you could get your character close and select any enemy unit in range...and then open up on it w all other guns in range...and it could stack w other auspexes...so...put it on the sanguinary priest instead of a pistol?

"A unit that is targeted by one or more auspexes has it's cover save reduced by 1 until the end of the phase."

So if I'm reading to this right, it does not stack.

On another note, I ALWAYS forget to use it... :P

[Jolemai]

Just a little something I noticed the other day which we can use to our advantage, but if they take a squadron of tanks they count as a unit. This not only means that they have to target the same thing but the whole unit has to Jink should you force one to. In my opinion, this is huge. Not only that but getting into combat with a grav tank will arguably knock out all three due to the vehicle squadron rules - really, they aren't as powerful as made out to be.

Dire Avengers are quite potent now but just as squishy as ever, while Wave Serpents are very underwhelming these days. Certainly, I'm less wary of the regular stuff now than I was previously. Oh, and Eldritch Storm has become fabulous - provided they can cast it