I had my first game against the new Eldar...

[Karhedron]

Dire Avengers are quite potent now but just as squishy as ever, while Wave Serpents are very underwhelming these days. Certainly, I'm less wary of the regular stuff now than I was previously. Oh, and Eldritch Storm has become fabulous - provided they can cast it

Wave Serpents have gone from being a dakka-gunboat to a very reliable transport which is as it should always have been IMHO. Now we can worry less about the Serpent but more about the cargo. ;)

You are right about the squadron restrictions you identified. I do not dispute that the Eldar received a buff with the new codex but early cries that the sky was falling seem to have been slightly exagerated. :D

[Charlo]

Here here on the avengers, I've basically trained myself to not be scared of anything T3 with a 4+ or worse (except perhaps Skit Vanguard) as they will drop like flys to our wonderful pattern predator!

[vahouth]

Have you played against the new Dex yet? A veteran Eldar player in my local group (currently 1st in our tournament) played against the Eldar list from the OP while using himself the previous edition and by the time the game ended, he was left with a single warp spider and a dire avenger! His list included a WK, 3 Distortion batteries with a Farseer attached, dark reapers, a Wave Serpent with Fire Dragons, a unit of Dire Avengers, and 2 units of Warp Spiders.

After that he told us that he feels disgusted by the new codex and that he will continue to play with the previous one.

I'm inclined to believe that only Alpha strike is viable against Eldar. If they take a shot at you, you're pretty much done for.

The Archangels Formation could be something worth bringing I think...

[Charlo]

The Archangels Formation could be something worth bringing I think...

So you can lose even more expensive models to little shurikens?

[vahouth]

The Archangels Formation could be something worth bringing I think...

So you can lose even more expensive models to little shurikens?

How? Will they have the chance? ;)

[knife&fork]

It's quite ironic really.

The lastest Eldar codex have made all our local Eldar players switch to their other armies. The one who only had Eldar have dropped 40k and now plays Necromunda exclusively.  

[vahouth]

The sky was indeed falling down. It's just that the Eldar players themselves took the hit.

Of the 3 Eldar players I know of, one is still playing but uses the old codex, the other switched to BTs.

The 3rd one won't use D weapons.

[Jolemai]

How fluffy: a "cataclysmic" event and the Eldar are now endangered :P

 

Seriously though, on regular Marines STR D is no different from being hit by a unit of Fire Dragons.

[BadDice0809]

I think the complaint is more on the D flamer. Its too.strong. That many reliable 3+ multi wound, FNP ignoring hits to protect themfrom their only weakness- assault. And toughness 6/3+ means they are hard to shift even up close!

[Charlo]

The new DA Landspeeder Vengeance wants a word. Large blast plasma cannon. Oh yes.

[Jolemai]

Then:

Template, STR 4, AP2, Assault 1, Distort (a six To Wound wounds automatically and inflicts Instant Death. Against a vehicle, a six automatically penetrates)

 

Now:

Template, STR D, AP 2, Assault 1, Distort Scythe (STR 4 for Instant Death threshold, roll -1 on the D table)

 

First off, Template wounds can be mitigated against by how you space out your unit. The new change hasn't increased the amount of hits they can do via Shooting or Overwatch, nor the amount of wounds that they cause (remember, it's a wound that becomes D3 wounds, not D3 extra wounds to the wound pool). Tactics against these haven't changed - you didn't charge them before and you certainly don't now! Dealing with them via shooting is the same as before, and to be really honest, in general they are still used less than the Wraithcannon. If they do appear, it's in conjunction with the Dark Eldar Webway Portal shenanigans and even then, how often does that come out to play?

 

Seriously a case of internet fear mongering.

[knife&fork]

Then:

 good for the price but lacked reliable delivery system

 

Now:

Even better for the price , gained a delivery system in codex DE

 

Seriously, besides the wave serpent, was there any unit at all that got nerfed in what was already the strongest codex by far?

 

It's not about that one unit, in that case it would be no different from the double lash/nob bikers/seer council/beaststar/draigowing or what ever flavor of the month power build you can think of. It's about having an entire book shock full of very good units and with answers to everything. 

In a normal game the eldar player will have to actively handicap himself to give his opponent a chance unless he's using the same 'dex.

 

You might be able to tailor against a specific eldar list if you know the exact composition though. 

[Karhedron]

 

Seriously, besides the wave serpent, was there any unit at all that got nerfed in what was already the strongest codex by far?

 

Shining Spears lost Hit-&-Run which was a shame as they were scarcely overpowered before. However I think they were definitely the exception to the overall trend with the Eldar codex.

 

 

You might be able to tailor against a specific eldar list if you know the exact composition though.

 

 

Grav is always a reliable bet against Eldar. Unless the Eldar player is running Guardian hosts, you will be killing stuff on a 3/4++ (even if he is not spamming wraith units). Also Grav gives an extra kick when immobilising skimmers.

[Ushtarador]

In my opinion, Necrons, Eldar and SM all are on a completely new level. I think they match up very well against each other, but they will destroy most other codices unless they intentionally play a 'nice' list.

Just another 4 years until we get a new codex.. :o

[BadDice0809]

So you charge a unit of 5 wraithguard with a full unit of Sanguinary Guard. They overwatch for D3 hits each. Average 10 hits. Average what- 6 wounds? With no saves. Straight up dead. Thats the same for any unit charging them. Even if they somehow survive, they are neutered for the rest of the battle.

And you get to charge them after they deep strike in and delete another unit. Because yes, people use this combo. Your lucky you never faced it.

[knife&fork]

Plus the entire wraith unit can overwatch if they are still embarked on the transport thanks to open topped.

 

Chances are good that the wraith unit will get at least 3 rounds of shooting (2+overwatch) before they are gone.

[Charlo]

Buddy your other units with scouts. Use them to eat the overwatch first! Then charge em with the golden/ black boys :)

 

Are WG fearless? If not, run a Rhino into those bony bastards! Sure more than likely you'll lose it, but if you get that successful tank shock...

[BadDice0809]

Wraith units are all fearless. And a smart player deep strikes where they know it will be hard for the chaff to get the sacrificial charge.... or they don't even have too, as normal eldar shooting has probably slaughtered them first turn.

I'm not saying despair, all hope is lost, BA have no chance. But its just ignorant to try to pass off the ridiculous strengths of that book, and what even a mediocre player can do with it. Against a strong player? Your best hope is they get really cold dice. And you got hot ones.

[Ushtarador]

cmon guys, just don't charge things that have D flamers ^^ like many other units in the game, those badboys will kill whatever they can reach. Just don't give them any worthwhile targets and then shoot them with grav.

 

The problem with the Eldar book is not a single unit (except maybe wraithknights). It's the combination of heavy hitters and mobile, long range fire support, and the really good synergy between units.

[knife&fork]

Getting first turn is also really important. You have to remove some elements early on, or at least force the Eldar player to risk units coming in piecemeal from reserves. 

 

Allied pod with grav devastators/cents to kill a WK and a culexus (pod or raven) to shut down or kill any psychic buffers ASAP.

 

Actually all of the assassins are useful vs eldar. Cover ignoring exitus pistol with appropriate ammo anyone? ;) 

Points heavy though... 

[CaptainHelion]

The one game I've seen with the Culexus vs Eldar had the Eldar player basically give up an entire side of the board , to stay away. That thing scares Eldar something fierce.

[Bukimimaru]

I just played my first game against the new Eldar last night.

The whole game was a constant uphill struggle. -_-

[Jolemai]

So you charge a unit of 5 wraithguard with a full unit of Sanguinary Guard. They overwatch for D3 hits each. Average 10 hits. Average what- 6 wounds? With no saves. Straight up dead. Thats the same for any unit charging them. Even if they somehow survive, they are neutered for the rest of the battle.

And you get to charge them after they deep strike in and delete another unit. Because yes, people use this combo. Your lucky you never faced it.

 

First off, lets turn this around. Lets say your Sanguinary Guard is charging a unit of Terminators. You may not lose any to Overwatch but you're going to be serious mullered in combat. The result? Exactly the same as if you charged a unit of D-Scythe Wraithguard. The difference? People aren't losing their minds over Terminators.

 

Secondly, I realise this is a vacuum example of yours, but why is your unit of Sanguinary Guard charging them solo? If for some reason you aren't going to/can't shoot them then multicharge them and send in the unit you can afford to lose (the so called "Speedbump" unit) first, or charge them with something the can survive like Hammernators.

 

Thirdly, I realise they will appear and delete a unit. It's something most of us did with our Fragiosos last time out. Once again, this can be mitigated by placement (i.e. they can be stranded if you space your units out), hiding in transports, or it can be taken out/harmed with Interceptor fire - something which many of us are open to including in our lists.

 

Yes we aren't playing chess but we need to accept that we are going to lose units. It's a case of dictating what we lose.

 

Plus the entire wraith unit can overwatch if they are still embarked on the transport thanks to open topped.

 

Chances are good that the wraith unit will get at least 3 rounds of shooting (2+overwatch) before they are gone.

 

Interceptor will ruin their transport which will leave them stranded and we are generally fast enough to kite them at this point, especially as they can't Battle Focus. Plasma and grav fire will deal them and it's a shame people overlook these weapons.

 

Wraith units are all fearless. And a smart player deep strikes where they know it will be hard for the chaff to get the sacrificial charge.... or they don't even have too, as normal eldar shooting has probably slaughtered them first turn.

I'm not saying despair, all hope is lost, BA have no chance. But its just ignorant to try to pass off the ridiculous strengths of that book, and what even a mediocre player can do with it. Against a strong player? Your best hope is they get really cold dice. And you got hot ones.

 

I'm not trying to pass off anything: Codex: Eldar Craftworlds is a lovely book with superb internal synergies. Yes, various units can be strong and stronger with buffs but then, so can ours in the right setting. You talk about the capabilities of the Eldar player, but what of the Blood Angels general? If we turn up un-preprared and with a bad list, we'll get slaughtered but I firmly believe that we can overcome that by evolving our lists and fully preparing for what we might face. Each unit has a counter and one we can exploit in our own unique manner.

 

When people complain about a unit/Codex and leave it at that - and thus without offering up anything constructive - I do see it as fear mongering. I do apologise if that's not your intent and I certainly hope I have caused no offense. However, I choose to focus on the positives and what we can do against them. You are right in that all hope is not lost, but it is also important to recognise that they aren't a point and click force and that we can give them a headache.

[BadDice0809]

Charging (what I am assuming are assault) terminators with Sanguinary Guard is, frankly, a horrible comparison to charging Wraithguard. How do you compare a unit that deletes your men without any chance of striking (a la D scythe overwatch) to being struck back from termies? This is after you hit them, with a TON of attacks, wounding on 3s... No one is comparing them to wraithguard. The 'effects' after the fact? You can easily drown assault termies in wounds before they strike. How exactly do you stop overwatch again? And this isn't a vacuum discussion because, once again, a smart eldar player will MOW DOWN your overwatch takers, then sit back and dare you to charge.

 

At the end of all this discussion, it comes down to the simple fact that some books, Eldar, Necrons, are so strong they can afford a fluffy, TAC type list building attitude- an ideal I think GW itself wants to promote- and do very well. The rest of us are stuck having to maximize and list tailor just to hold a candle.

[Deadman Wade]

How much does usual squad of wraithguard with d-scythes costs? I've had unpleasant experience playing against them, and I think that sacrificing a squad just to charge them isn't a great idea. They have no invulnerable saves, right? How about assault squads with plasma guns? Two squads are 250 points, 12 plasma shots should be enough to kill 5-man wraithguard squad.