Master Antaeus Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Played Militarum Tempestus vs Tau at 2000 points. Table had plenty of terrain, nothing to complain about there. I had: Primary Det: MT Command squad, 3 flamers, vox, Tempestor (Warlord) with bolt pistol, Taurox with gatling and TL autocannons MT Command Squad, 3 Volleyguns, vox, naked Tempestor, Deep striking 10 Scions, 2 plasmaguns, Tempestor with bolt pistol, Taurox with TBC and volleyguns 10 Scions, 2 plasmaguns, Tempestor with bolt pistol, Taurox with TBC and volleyguns 5 Scions, 2 Meltaguns, Tempestor with bolt pistol, deep striking. 5 Scions, 2 Meltaguns, Tempestor with bolt pistol, deep striking. Thunderbolt fighter, no missiles (going based on unofficial forge world statement that MT could take same heavy choices as AM) Vulture with TL Punisher (I already know that 4 large blasts from the rocket pods is tactically and numerically better, but this is so SATISFYING) Allied Det: Inquisitor with psyker, plasma pistol (it's the gunslinger model), 3 servo skulls Inquisitor with Psyker, Inferno pistol (it's the fencer model) Henchmen with of psyker, jokaero, 3 plasmaguns, 5 acolytes with bolters, chimera. Jokaero rolled +12" for everyone. Henchmen with 3 flamers, 5 acolytes with nothing, psyker, chimera Allied det: Inquisitor Coteaz Henchmen with 2 heavy bolter servitors, 1 plasma cannon servitor, psyker, jokaero. Jokaero rolled 5++ save for everyone. My opponent: Warlord: missile pod, plasma rifle, retinue with similar. Shas'O with the ignores cover/twin-linked everything wargear that everyone hates and Iridium Armor, parked with missile broadsides Missilesides with a smattering of missile drones. Riptide with the giant plasma cannon 4 units of 12 fire warriors 10 kroot (outflank) Dunno why everyone hates Kroot; 7 points for an infiltrating bolter sounds pretty good to me. Hammerhead with Ion Cannon 6 pathfinders 6 pathfinders 6 pathfinders Result: A fairly close game, we were trading blows until turn 4 when he got 7 VPs and another 5 in turn 5. By that point, my mobility was shot and I could in no way recover by the end. As you can see, my friend knows I'm new to MT and has taken a fairly non-insane list. Some things I noticed as I got trashed by angry blue men: -Flamers are cool, but don't do anything if you can't get them where needed. -I had a huge amount of trouble with firewarriors of all things. They are quite comparable to scions, but were able to outrange me significantly. AP3 is less useful than S5 when cover is involved. -The Thunderbolt is an admirable air-to-air fighter, but at 180 points naked, it just doesn't cut the mustard as an all-purpose fighter. My opponent had no flyers and this thing felt like a huge afterthought (shame too, the model is beautiful; looks like a flying muscle car) -Having seen the Militarum Tempestus-specific orders in action, I think I actually prefer the Astra Militarum ones. The TL order can easily be mimicked with psychic powers (especially since you'll still be TLed when assaulted, unlike with the order). The prefered enemy one was good, but there just wasn't enough volume of fire. Four or five times, I remember wishing I could throw out an ignore cover or a first rank fire. Grass is greener, I guess. -The Taurox is actually really good and if you keep in cover (and kill all the stupid pathfinders and the lame commander with all the toys), quite survivable since you can just rampage through buildings with them. -Inquisitorial Chimeras are cheaper and still have 5 fire points. I used to think this was outrageous in 5th and early 6th and I even played IG. It is not so insane now and, in fact, the chimera nerf really hurt mechanized guard. Call the Waaaahmbulance. Mistakes I made: -I put the inquisitors in chimeras with their henchmen because I am an idiot and have squandered the lives of the Emperor's servants. Coteaz could have done me a lot of good in a scion squad, tanking with his artificer armor and boosting the squad with psychic powers. -Volleyguns in command squads look cool on paper, but salvo kills them. MT is an army that absolutely cannot stand still, so I found that my secondary command squad was toting really expensive hellguns around with them that they never got to use to their fullest. On the Taurox, they are infantry murderers and I like them just fine. -I made a Tempestor Prime my Warlord. Nevermind how this would work narratively, Coteaz is the logical choice, but his warlord trait sucks. Perhaps another inquisitor. Yes. Nevermind the narrative, I'll think of something. Questions So where do I go from here? I will probably build some Taurox-towed Vengeance Weapon Batteries with Quad Icarus to replace the thunderbolt. This army has serious problems projecting fire. I may change my primary detachment to AM in order to get the other orders and the superior command squad (in a crap chimera, but at least the Captain can issue orders from it). This army had major problems with the following units and I would happily hear advice on how to get rid of them: Fire Warriors (outranged) Khorne Berzerkers (couldn't kill enough before being charged and even one is sufficient to murder a full scion squad on his own) Thousand Sons (I know, shameful, but 4++ and AP3 bolters took out my scions no problem) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307713-militarum-tempestus-thoughts-after-a-few-games/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulrik_Ironfist Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 I'll be getting in a few games this weekend, against a couple of armies, and I'll really be putting them through the paces, to see where my weaknesses are. I forgot about the AP3 bolters, that's going to be nasty since my opponent plays Thousand Sons and Tau. After my game this weekend we'll compare notes, and do an AAR, to see what each of us was doing differently than the other, what worked and what didn't. I'd hate to think I invested all this time and money into a force that doesn't work for me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307713-militarum-tempestus-thoughts-after-a-few-games/#findComment-4045430 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altasmurf Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Good to see amother MT player tossing his hat in the ring. A few ideas for your issues. 1. Fire warriors, deep strike everything. Keep you taurox in cover and engage at range while you deep strike storm troopers to negate the range advantage that tau have. 2. Khorne beserkers, stay in your taurox and stay mobile. Use your mobility to play the objective game and not the battle game. Engage units on your terms not his. 3. T sons, oddly enough they hit MT on 2 fronts, nullifying AP 3, and hitting our lack of psykers. One again taurox are key, out range them and play the objective game. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307713-militarum-tempestus-thoughts-after-a-few-games/#findComment-4045443 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilofix Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 To solve the range and Cover problem, I usually like to Deep Strike in behind my opponents lines. I know folks are terrified of Deep Strike Mishaps but it's usually rare and when you land close by his Units its devastating. It is somewhat high risk / high reward. I like to run MSU with Scions, so even if I get some bad drops, there will be others that land well. Usually I just go Plasma and Melta. I sometimes do Flamer but it's only for very specific things. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307713-militarum-tempestus-thoughts-after-a-few-games/#findComment-4045444 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenPlasma Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Theorycraft incoming. I don't like the flyers, I think they don't have enough synergy with an MT force. I think pretty highly of the Praetor Launcher (old rules, http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/p/preatorrules1.pdf) and artillery fire support in general. It will help a lot. The Praetor can let you reserve your entire army, it applies firepower from turn 1, it's reliable due to TL, you can add 2 lascannons on a durable platform, and it's main weapon can be tailored to the enemy list. So given you're against heavy Fire Warrior Tau, you can loadout with 2x TL, S6 AP4 Ignore Cover multiple barrage blasts. Perfect! Volleyguns I think need to be run inside larger troop squads with the Lasguns providing protection. As soon as they're set, the gunners will provide better firepower than the entire squad. The command squads are too small to protect their special weapons. 16 shots sounds attractive, but 8 is good enough and a larger squad has more staying power. Scions don't do volume of fire, but if you already have a lot of Psykers pyromancy might help more than Divination powers. Jump Psykers get MTC when attached to a squad and benefit from MT orders. Melee is a problematic issue, with Inq or AM you can probably get some close protection or enablers to help out. Malleus Terminators can jump with your troops and tank fire on a 2+. Xenos Rad Grenades are nice too. Anything AP3 that wrecks your infantry, either alpha strike or hide in the trucks. Though large Volleygun squads in cover could probably outshoot TS over a few turns, I haven't checked the stats. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307713-militarum-tempestus-thoughts-after-a-few-games/#findComment-4045475 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulrik_Ironfist Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 I like flamers for things that shouldn't be shooting much, like regualr IG CCS, where it gives them a tangible benefit for overwatch, if a unit does get close. My MT command squad is all plasma'd out. I don't quite know how I'll deploy that yet, but I'm thinking deep strike. I want to keep as much of my force on the table during deployment, or coming in turn 1 (I have Elysian Vets infiltrating, and Elysian Stormtroopers flying in on a Valkyrie). I'm using an allied Detachment of Elysians, and an Allied Detachment of Regular IG. I have a master of ordinance in my IG CCS, but no Officer of the Fleet. I feel pretty confident about my list and my ability to handle the thousand sons, and tau. I'm bringing enough weapons that negate his armor saves, so he'll be taking 4++ saves by the handful, hopefully he'll fail enough to keep me in the game, those AP3 bolters are going to be rough though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307713-militarum-tempestus-thoughts-after-a-few-games/#findComment-4045486 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Thanks for the report, I think the space monkeys will be a tough match for MT but there's some great advice here. Be bold - who dares wins right? :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307713-militarum-tempestus-thoughts-after-a-few-games/#findComment-4045627 Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 I don't have too many problems with your MT list (the actual MT part), but it feels like you had a 1200 point list and threw in 800 points of random stuff just to be able to match your opponent's 2k. I have trouble imagining the fliers and your HORDE of psychers adding much. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307713-militarum-tempestus-thoughts-after-a-few-games/#findComment-4045767 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulrik_Ironfist Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 The Valkyrie is in the MT codex to be part of the Airborne Formation, that's really the whole point of the mini-dex. The use of fliers is fine, when you stop and consider how to effectively employ them. I run a Valkyrie as part of my Elysian Allied Detachment, because it can come in first turn, and it's bringing stormies that I can plop anywhere, effectively infiltrating them (Elysians storm troopers are pretty much right out of the 5th ed codex, so they have the Special Ops rule, which I take recon). They'll pretty much be dropping on top of my vet squad (Elysian FO's have tracking beacons, so no scatter), giving them some AP support. I also have a Vendetta in reserve, to use against his tanks and transports. I have a lord commissar from my Elysians which will be deploying in my IG CCS, It's all about how you synergize your army. As for the thunderbolt, I generally don't like flyers that can't hover. They generally lack the staying power I need, so I take gunships (StormFangs/Stormwolves/StormRavens/StormTalons/Valkyries/Vendettas) because they can hover, giving them the staying power on the field. I zoom them on, Shoot their guns, and drop them to hover the next turn, drop the unit, and back them off so they don't get assaulted. Then I fire them again. That's how I do it when they're using their transport capacity, if it's just for guns, I bring them on in hover mode, sit them back and fire at things. The only fliers I have that don't hover are my Nephilim, Razorshark, and DoomScythe. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307713-militarum-tempestus-thoughts-after-a-few-games/#findComment-4045997 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Antaeus Posted May 18, 2015 Author Share Posted May 18, 2015 Consensus among local peers seems to be that an Imperial Knight is the way to go. Not a lot of flyers around here, but enough fast skimmers to justify a vengeance weapon battery, certainly at 2k. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307713-militarum-tempestus-thoughts-after-a-few-games/#findComment-4046885 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulrik_Ironfist Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 I think having a knight is a must anyway... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307713-militarum-tempestus-thoughts-after-a-few-games/#findComment-4046895 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kontakt Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 I think having a knight is a must anyway... If scions are the primary force, you think correctly, wise sir. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307713-militarum-tempestus-thoughts-after-a-few-games/#findComment-4047281 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulrik_Ironfist Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 I think having a knight is a must anyway... If scions are the primary force, you think correctly, wise sir. I was just speaking generally. When the problem is a nail, the solution is a hammer. When you're faced with an enemy, bring the biggest guns you've got. (Now, you're thinking like a Guardsman...) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307713-militarum-tempestus-thoughts-after-a-few-games/#findComment-4047563 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altasmurf Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Imperial knights deffinatly fill the holes in the MT codex. Especially at higher point levels where the lack of variety starts to really hurt. However there are some nice other options. Skitarrii add some great anti horde with vanguard, anti vehicle with arc rifles, melee with sicarins, and general fire power with onagers. Then stormies provide the skitarii with transports. IG, there some obvious symmetry with the guard mostly providing long range fire to crack tanks and transport while stormies engage the infantry and take objectives. Also a great way to get vendettas which are great additions to the army. Space marines also are excellent allies, providing toughness, accurate deep striking, and melee capabilities. Scions are a decent army especially at lower points, but they do struggle at higher points. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307713-militarum-tempestus-thoughts-after-a-few-games/#findComment-4047847 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father Mehman Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 At 2,000 points I'd try to fit in two Knights. One is a target, two is a problem. I'd go for a Knight Paladin and Knight Warden as they seem to have great synergy. Give one a carapace-mounted AA gun and the other (whichever one is going to be charging the most) either the anti-armour or anti-infantry missile launcher. Also, consider giving the Warden a gauntlet and letting him toss vehicles at anything else in his way, if he's the one to be charging. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307713-militarum-tempestus-thoughts-after-a-few-games/#findComment-4047925 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulrik_Ironfist Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 At 2,000 points I'd try to fit in two Knights. One is a target, two is a problem. I'd go for a Knight Paladin and Knight Warden as they seem to have great synergy. Give one a carapace-mounted AA gun and the other (whichever one is going to be charging the most) either the anti-armour or anti-infantry missile launcher. Also, consider giving the Warden a gauntlet and letting him toss vehicles at anything else in his way, if he's the one to be charging. My thoughts exactly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307713-militarum-tempestus-thoughts-after-a-few-games/#findComment-4048233 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kontakt Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Funny that the concensus is 2 knights... I am picking up my second on thursday, have the list already. I will be running a knight paladin and a knight Crusader. Since they have plenty of anti tank, the scions can focus on plasma and volley guns :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307713-militarum-tempestus-thoughts-after-a-few-games/#findComment-4048482 Share on other sites More sharing options...
captain sox Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Don't discount putting Taurox Missile Launchers on your vehicles, and the Augur Array (though costly) can be your friend too. Puts your flamers where you want them. Also, (don't laugh) Grenade Launchers are good too. Maybe add a third Taurox. I really like them. Also, consider adding some Terminators. If anything they will distract your opponent. I'm building my second Knight to go with my Scion Army. This one will be a Crusader. I put the Icarus Lascannon on my Paladin. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307713-militarum-tempestus-thoughts-after-a-few-games/#findComment-4048523 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulrik_Ironfist Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 For allies, don't restrict yourself to just allied detachments. I have been seriously considering Ravenwing to bring some mobile firepower. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307713-militarum-tempestus-thoughts-after-a-few-games/#findComment-4048660 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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