bozo69pd Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Pretty cool that you can just add an assault claw + 20 zerkers to any chaos army now that does a str D hit when it drops, doesn't mishap, then the zerkers can charge that turn. Thats alot of points but still does alot of stuff people have been asking for... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebris Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 ... good? The imperials have strength D every turn as long as their Imperial Knight is alive. The Eldar have strength D as long as their Wraithknight and Wraithguard are alive... Which could easily mean the majority of the game. We have now "one" strength D attack and we again have to pay a FW premium for it. And to add insult to injury their strength D platforms are very mobile, ours is not. Shall we talk money: Kharybdis 206 Eur + shipment Berzerkers of Khorne 60 Eur (you need to boxes to top them at 20) Blood Oath book So you are paying cca 270 eur for a single D attack and a charge following it. This is two Imperial Knights or two (closing three) Wraithknights with their D galore. Not exactly a good thing for Chaos... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Honestly, I can see this being used a lot, really awesome formation as as the Zerkers are taken from the Daemonkin book so they get blood tihthe too. Only problem I can see if that they could land, wreck pretty much any vehicle and charge first turn... Which while awesome is very OP :P ... good? The imperials have strength D every turn as long as their Imperial Knight is alive. The Eldar have strength D as long as their Wraithknight and Wraithguard are alive... Which could easily mean the majority of the game. We have now "one" strength D attack and we again have to pay a FW premium for it. And to add insult to injury their strength D platforms are very mobile, ours is not. I think you are looking at the the wrong way Tenebris, the D (heh) is just the bonus gravy to this formation really. The real meat is letting you ASSAULT WITH TWENTY FROTHING ZERKERS WITHOUT THE ENEMY RETALIATING. That is gold. Plus the Dreadklaw is nasty anyway with the potential to wreck light vehicle squads and infantry the turn it lands and more thereafter. Shame you can't put an IC in there, but no big deal.You could convert a Dreadclaw pretty easily too from a drop pod, 'cron parts and any old missile bits lying around :)The only thing close to this is the BA formation that requires three storm ravens and full tactical squads that even then requires good reserves rolls and not getting them blown up for a turn. This is an awesome take! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khornestar Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Not as good as having units with worthwhile rules/points cost in the first place, but better than nothing. One can get FW stuff from 3rd party sources, if they choose, and never pay full price. But I know many prefer buying directly. I'm pretty excited about using this formation. I imagine my gaming group would be happy to let me use my converted SM drop pod as a Kharybdis. Smaller footprint = less vehicles hit by the D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebris Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 From my experience the Kharybdis is far from a good unit. In fact it is dangerous to play it for Chaos. It costs too much and brings too little to the table. As for the Berzerker charge... that amount of money would allow me to charge with two squads of Berzerkers from a Land Raider and that "famous" Berzerker charge is only good for one turn, then their charge bonuses disappear and you have just payed a wealth of money and resources to have 20 passable melee combatants in melee, where they will probably die in the following turn or worse, remain tied due to their Fearless. All this because we are desperate to get that "one" strength D attack. Also most of the serious tournaments place a rule FW rules = FW models so yet again we are at a pay to win scenario. And implying third party is counted as fraud or theft of intellectual propriety and here I have to call full stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khornestar Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 I think the opponent is the crucial factor in determining whether or not to use the formation. Against a ton of Orks like a Green Tide, 20 Berzerkers should do a ton of damage and obviously prevent the greenskins from getting a charge. The D is icing on the cake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Res Ipsa Loquitur Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Just build a Loyalist Drop Pod but put the fins on upside down. http://darkfuturegaming.blogspot.ca/2010/10/diy-cheap-chaos-dreadclaws-part-1.html It doesn't stop it being too much points-wise, but it does cut down on financial pain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 An upside down drop pod might work for a dread claw, but a kharybdis would need to be bigger than that. Also, a strict reading of the formation's rules does not allow the unit to assault the turn it deep strikes. The rule only allows the unit to assault the turn it disembarks, it basically gives the kharybdis the assault transport rule. A rule the kharybdis already has, and that already doesn't allow units to assault out of it the turn it arrives. You could arrive turn one, then on next turn disembark and assault. That's what the rule lets you do - it bypasses the rule that prevents you from assaulting the turn you disembark, but says and does nothing about the restriction preventing you from assaulting the turn you arrive from reserve. But why would GW care about the wording of their game rules? I mean clearly they don't. Especially not for a supplement they don't even intend to be generally available, since it's an exclusive for one specific store. I wouldn't even consider it legal rules, honestly. Now, arguably the intent is to allow assault the turn they arrive, since the kharybdis is already an assault vehicle anyway. But even then, is this good? The Kharybdis is super overpriced, and berzerkers are semi-overpriced, and can struggle with more elite melee enemies, and since you have to take 20 berzerkers it's not like you could supplement them with an independent character. A very swingy formation overall. One likely to win some games and lose others. Not worth the aggravation of poorly written rules that clearly do not do what they equally clearly intend, let alone the insult of being a single store exclusive product to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaz'sax Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Isn't the drop pod already an assault vehicle? So yeah it can charge turn one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron_Within Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 The cover of the book looks cheap and badly put together and so do the formations. What a pile of crap. I seriously reckon they made this in about an hour and didn't even remotely think it through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thraxdown Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 We have now "one" strength D attack and we again have to pay a FW premium for it. And to add insult to injury their strength D platforms are very mobile, ours is not. To be fair we have access to 6 strength D attacks that only has to weather two full rounds of shooting and one round of assault before it can be used. So go chaos! Wooo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Isn't the drop pod already an assault vehicle? So yeah it can charge turn one How? I mean, I'm not arguing with you on the intent, but where in its rules does it say you can assault the turn you come in from reserve? It just says you can assault the turn you disembark, which is exactly what the assault vehicle rule is. It has the same rule twice, which is dumb, but doesn't translate into having any other rules. If a model has FNP and you give it FNP some other way, that doesn't suddenly turn into eternal warrior. If a model has poison, and you give it a poison weapon, it doesn't suddenly gain rending. The formation gives you a second, superfluous exception to the rule preventing you from assaulting the turn you disembark from a vehicle. That doesn't magically become an exception to some other rule. As written the formation doesn't let you do anything more or less than being an assault vehicle already does, and that rule doesn't let you assault from reserve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khornestar Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Isn't the drop pod already an assault vehicle? So yeah it can charge turn one Can't charge when you arrive from reserves, unfortunately. Other than using this sucker. Maybe other factions/formations have a special rule that allows them, but for Chaos this is it AFAIK. As for assaulting turn 1, it seems crystal clear to me, honestly. Anyone arguing otherwise is just nitpicking the wording. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Nitpicking nothing. The wording is the same as for assault vehicle. If this let you assault the turn you came in from reserve, then assault vehicle would already do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adra'Melek Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Assault vehicle rule specifically says it doesn't apply when arriving from reserves. This rule doesn't have that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron_Within Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 If it actually allow you to assault from reserve this would be amazing, but two things: 1 they'll never FAQ it, 2. We're Chaos, we don't get a break. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 You drop your pod in, the Berzerkers Disembark from it after resolving impact D or heat blasts etc. Normally, due to deep strike/ arriving from reserves, you would not be able to assault. BUT - the formation has the rule "Hungry for Blood" Hungry for Blood: This Formation's Unit of Berzerkers must begin the game embarked upon this Formation's Kharybdis Assault Claw. The Unit can charge on the same turn it disembarks from the Kharybdis Assault Claw. If the rulebook says they cannot assault after disembarking from a Pod due to deepstrike, it does not matter anyway, as this rule, found in an external book overrules the core rulebook unless stated otherwise. So you place your pod, roll scatter, resolve subsequent impact hits (if any), disembark your berzerkers and then drink your opponents tears as they drop what? 80 attacks on him? Blood for the Blood God. Kill. Maim. Burn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abadizzle Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Its pretty clear to me malisteen- in IA:13 it says you can not assault the turn you arrive from a kharybdis or dreadclaw- but nowhere does it state you can not disembark the turn you arrive. So new formation appears crystal clear to me anyhow. The RAW "land on a building or vehicle" is still puzzling but I'd heavily argue RAI in a gaming scenario. Pre-game of course as to avoid any nerd-rage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 While I disagree on the raw, I agree on the intent, and am mostly arguing facetiously as a way to vent my annoyance at what seems to me to be a poorly thought out product. And 'exclusive rules' are imo terrible for the game altogether. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Well youve got access to them right here? :D no rule saying you need to own the book. If anyone has a problem say you took a copy to save you carrying more books around : D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 And you're cool with this? This is what you want to see more of? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abadizzle Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 I'm not opposed to photocopies or printscreens of rules... As long as its not excessive (ie entire codex) and so long as I can verify its validity at the click of a button. 40K is buggers at the moment. I'd blame the game and not the dude w the PDF personally Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 I am blaming the game. That's what I'm blaming here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bozo69pd Posted May 18, 2015 Author Share Posted May 18, 2015 First my games workshop store next door lets us use copies no problem. Manager doesnt give a %$^# he just says please buy models sometimes to help his quarters look good. If the official store/friends where i play 10 games a week lets me do this that is what I will do. Second the cover is an old pic from an early edition for nostalgia. Third yes you can charge from the claw after DS because the rule of the codex or suplement overwrites the BRB as is stated in there somewhere. Fourth they showed chaos knights there which is cool because I have 3 imperial knights converted already (wow guess what the chaos ones are just errants and paladins that was easy) so I am good to go just need them to release the rules on it so I can print those out. I am thinking about doing this easy conversion off of a regular SM droppod I saw intoa claw (by flipping the door things upside down somehow) man that could be 9 sources of D in my army in a high points game. I think I'll use this against my WAAC eldar friend. Have Belakor invis/shroud some knights and fight some wraiths, then his big D scythe WWP blob ill feed a fodder unit for overwatch then charge all my berserkers at them and chop them up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 A kharybdis is considerably larger than a dreadclaw, which is already larger than a drop pod. You'll want something larger than a drop pod conversion for your counts-as, unless you're talking about just a temporary proxy to try it out. Using a drop pod as a kharybdis in general would be like counting a knight titan as a warhound, or a gorkanaut as a stompa, or a wraithlord as a wraith knight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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