Zembar Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307722-warhammer-world-exclusive-campaign-blood-oath/?p=4045562 I count 4410 points minimum, probably a lot more once you get kit for the NDKs and the tons of special weapons and rhinos to make all those PAGK worthwhile... But hey! At least we're getting something new ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307758-new-gk-formation/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
FinkleLord Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 I guess it is cool. Don't think I will ever get a chance to use it though. Just feels like a scaled up version of what our book has. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307758-new-gk-formation/#findComment-4046557 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Coolpants Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Tis a stupid formation.... Who has over 140 grey knight models!? A large army for us is 30. Who would feel the need to purchase, build and paint up 5 times that... And then when you roll for reserves. You're going to have to deepstrike them all at the same time!! Where the hell you going to safety teleport 140 models + 4 MC? Need like a 15ft board to have any chance of avoiding mishaps... I'm guessing this formation forces and gives purifiers and purgation squads deepstrike? That's cool though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307758-new-gk-formation/#findComment-4046596 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethernitas Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Well it's a formation for a Warhammer World exclusive campaign book that was based on the new mega-display where World Eaters and Anggrath Daemonkin storm a Ultramarines fortress. The display clocks in at well over 100.000 points so the formations in the campaign book are equally megalomaniac. The book really only exists because of that display. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307758-new-gk-formation/#findComment-4046644 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Lol. Like our Brotherhood formation, it's stupid because we get zero choice of unit selection (again....sigh). In order to get Deepstriking Purifiers and Purgators, you have to pay an enormous amount of points (10-man squads...yeah okay, but xenos never have to do that). At least this time round, they're giving us 4x DK's in the formation, and they acknowledge they're there to kill vehicles. It's for Apocalypse. Plain and simple. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307758-new-gk-formation/#findComment-4046721 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 The Warlord looks awesome! But that GK formation is garbage. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307758-new-gk-formation/#findComment-4046866 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Rubbish Formation. Have to start non DS units in reserves. lol. What happens with a unit from the formationis embarked in a Stormraven thats in reserves? /sigh Roll once for the formation, and the embarked unit comes in. Which includes non Formation and non GK transports? WHY DON@T YOU LEARN GW??????? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307758-new-gk-formation/#findComment-4047292 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 New post for this thought. GW *seriously* have to stop with the single 'faction' formations/special rules for Imperial armies. There's too much Battle Brother-ness going on to make them work. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307758-new-gk-formation/#findComment-4047296 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Nah man, they have too much narrative to forge. Gotta force it down your throat, any way they can. It's even in our codex ;) good ol' Brotherhood Formation of Fail Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307758-new-gk-formation/#findComment-4047308 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zembar Posted May 18, 2015 Author Share Posted May 18, 2015 If i fielded this, I'd bring land raiders as dedicated transport for all my terminators. Deep striking Land Raiders ahoy! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307758-new-gk-formation/#findComment-4047367 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Formation doesn't grant Deep Strike though. So what does happen when you have a Purifier Squad bought in the formation embarked in a GK Stormraven? What happens when you have a Purifier Squad bought in the formation embarked in a non GK Stormraven? Why is it so hard for GW to think of these questions, and actually cater for them? I literally looked at the formation for a second and these questions popped up. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307758-new-gk-formation/#findComment-4047384 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zembar Posted May 18, 2015 Author Share Posted May 18, 2015 When playing missions with the Reserves mission special rule, all units in this formation must begin the game in Deep Strike Reserve. My interpretation of this is that they will all deep strike. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307758-new-gk-formation/#findComment-4047471 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 You can't enter play via deep strike unless the unit has the deep strike rule. Which is why no Deep Striking Land Raiders, even as dedicated transports. Edit: Even if you gloss over the RAW and say this is actually giving all the units in the formation the Deep Strike USR (which it doesn't), that doesn't confer to any Transports. So you stick the Purifiers into a Stormraven and then what? They come in by Deep Strike with the rest of the Formation, but thier Transport *can't*. Or do you restrict embarkation of these units to only transports that have the Deep Strike specail rule themselves? There aren't any rules I oculd find (only a quick search) in either the Deep Strike rules or Reserves rules that prohib a unit in Reserves to arrive by Deep Strike (or Deep Strike Reserves... GW need to sort thier wording out here) from embarking a Transport in reserves that isn't arriving by Deep Strike. It's a mess. And doesn't need to be. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307758-new-gk-formation/#findComment-4047510 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zembar Posted May 18, 2015 Author Share Posted May 18, 2015 The Deep Strike rules say that being in Deep Strike Reserves is the same as "Arriving by Deep Strike". Why else would the formation specify Deep Strike Reserves instead of just Reserves? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307758-new-gk-formation/#findComment-4047525 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 GW can't write tight rules. Seriously, the first line of the crunch; In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule The Formation could *easily* have been written to *give* the DS USR to all units in it. *But*. You still have the transport issue. Purifiers in a Space Marine Landraider. Deep Striking Land Raider? No. Purifiers can't enter play? They must come in with the rest of the formation. Whole formation doesn't arrive? It's a mess. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307758-new-gk-formation/#findComment-4047538 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zembar Posted May 18, 2015 Author Share Posted May 18, 2015 Well, GoI lets you deep strike without the special rule, I'd say this covers the same issue. Also, if I wanted deep striking land raiders I'd grab them as dedicated transports for the terminators and boom! Regarding the purifier example. you could also attach non-DS HQs from other detachments for additional paradox lulz. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307758-new-gk-formation/#findComment-4047546 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 GoI isn't Deep Strike, and goes no where near Reserves (unless you mishap). Next question. You put some Purifiers in Space Marine Drop Pods. First turn, the Drop Pods want to come in due to DPA. The Formation requires all units in it to arrive together. What happens? This formation, and Deep Strike as a whole is a mess. I doubt anyone's going to touch this formation anyway, but GW really need to fix up. Also, if I wanted deep striking land raiders I'd grab them as dedicated transports for the terminators and boom! Still doesn't work. Regarding the purifier example. you could also attach non-DS HQs from other detachments for additional paradox lulz. Totally. Add in a non DS HQ to a squad of Terminators. Again, this is why in the open world of Imperial Bro Fisting ness, these sort of single Codex Formations without ally restricitons *just don't work*. GW need to drop them, or really tighten up on Battle Brother togetherness. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307758-new-gk-formation/#findComment-4047554 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zembar Posted May 18, 2015 Author Share Posted May 18, 2015 Just because there are situations where a rule breaks down, it doesn't mean that the rules should be ignored when it doesn't break down. It's very clear that the entire formation is meant to Deep Strike. That this causes conundrums when combined with units from other detachments is a completely different issue, and if we removed rules that can cause paradoxes, the rulebook would be ten pages long and we wouldn't be able to play. It's not even 100% clear on what a unit is, for crying out loud. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307758-new-gk-formation/#findComment-4047562 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Just because there are situations where a rule breaks down, it doesn't mean that the rules should be ignored when it doesn't break down. But this formation breaks down totally. It's very clear that the entire formation is meant to Deep Strike. That this causes conundrums when combined with units from other detachments is a completely different issue, and if we removed rules that can cause paradoxes, the rulebook would be ten pages long and we wouldn't be able to play. It's not a different issue. ;) That's the whole point of the open ness of Armies of the Imperium, and faction spefici formations. This formation uses a GK IC. Lets assume the intent here, and that placing a unit in DSR allows it to DS without the unit having the DS USR. You now attach the GK IC to a unit of Grav Centurion. Deep Striking Grav Centurion? You can't hand wave that away and say "well the formation is ok if you don't use Grav Centurion with it". There is a massive underlying problem with detachments or formations like this. Just take attaching Grey Knights in a NSF to other faction units. And the heartache that causes. This formation could have been worded properly. So none of this is an issue. But it wasn't. And that's a failing on GW that we should not support, nor hand wave away. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307758-new-gk-formation/#findComment-4047585 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zembar Posted May 18, 2015 Author Share Posted May 18, 2015 But does that mean that the NSF doesn't allow us to Deep Strike turn one, or that the NSF "breaks down totally", as it may have controversial interactions with other units? I think not. Yes, the rule is badly worded, but it's quite clear that non-DS units in the formation can Deep Strike. That's all I'm saying. What constitutes a unit in a formation is the real problem, but that's only tangentially related and not endemic to the formation itself. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307758-new-gk-formation/#findComment-4047596 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Two simple fixes; 1: The Formation gives any unit in it the DS USR, if it doesn't already have it. 2: Any unit in the formation is (two choices here); A) Unable to join any unit not part of the formation during deployment (or before arriving from reserves, how ever you want to word it) B ) Unable to join any unit that does not have the DS USR during deployment (or before arriving from reserves, how ever you want to word it) Anyone find any issues with these? Edit: B still causes issues with Drop Pods. Might have to say none of the units in the formation can embark transports during deployment / before arriving. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307758-new-gk-formation/#findComment-4047599 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 but it's quite clear that non-DS units in the formation can Deep Strike. That's all I'm saying. While that might be the intention. They failed at making it correct rules. But does that mean that the NSF doesn't allow us to Deep Strike turn one, or that the NSF "breaks down totally", as it may have controversial interactions with other units? I think not. As a whole? The NSF is an utter mess. If you take it in isolation (which is my whole point....), and ignore the bits that cuases problems. It's just fine. But then, if you're ignoring the problems, *of course* it's going to be fine... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307758-new-gk-formation/#findComment-4047603 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zembar Posted May 18, 2015 Author Share Posted May 18, 2015 My main issue is that they will never issue an FAQ clarifying it, or probably even answer an e-mail asking them. ;) Otherwise it looks good. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307758-new-gk-formation/#findComment-4047607 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Or three of us e-mail them, and get three different answers. Like the FW Tank. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307758-new-gk-formation/#findComment-4047608 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zembar Posted May 18, 2015 Author Share Posted May 18, 2015 I do actually like two things about the formation: The face your opponent makes when you tell him you're DSing 6000 points worth of grey knights The face you'll make when you realise you'd need a board the size of an aircraft carrier with sparse terrain to avoid losing about 3000 of those points to mishaps Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307758-new-gk-formation/#findComment-4047635 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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