Ishagu Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 Just want to discuss some opinions on various units available to Marines of the Great Crusade. Normally I'd just buy everything but FW prices keep me on the cautious side lol. I’m finding myself with around 200 – 250 points to play around with in the lists I’m making, so I’m considering a few options. I really like the look of Terminators, especially the Cataphractii but I struggle to dedicate a transport to them in most lists I make due to the spiralling costs. Does anyone ever run Terminators on foot? The Cataphractii are more survivable that the Tartaros variant, but are so slow and none of the weapon options really improve their range… I’m also interested in Tactical Support Squads - a unit of 10 armed with Volkite Calivers, and perhaps an Apothecary to give them FNP and Interceptor. I think to myself that this is a good unit, and then I remember that for the same price Eldar Jetbikes will throw out twice the number of shots whilst zooming about the board! It’s these kinds of comparisons that make me think twice. In a 2.5k list I’ll be using a Storm Eagle for AA or more delivery options, but if I’m fielding a smaller list I won’t have anything that can reliably hurt flyers. How have Mortis Contemptors with dual Kheres performed for people? I can see that it has decent shooting, and using the Ultramarine Primarch I can even award it Tank Hunters (though I feel running two would be best for that), and the points are reasonable... As for the best way to run Tactical Marines, does anyone actually have success with big blobs walking around the board? I’ve only even seen a few Chaos players try this, and they have always performed poorly. Running them in Rhinos for protection and mobility is more preferable but the discount when buying a bigger squad is appealing… So, what are people’s thoughts? PS: javelin Land speeders look rather good! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308043-id-like-the-advice-of-the-more-practiced-legion-players/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Golem Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 I can't answer much here but I will say that comparing most things to the new Eldar Jetbikes is going to leave them short, JBs with scatter lasers are far too cheap for their firepower and mobility. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308043-id-like-the-advice-of-the-more-practiced-legion-players/#findComment-4054885 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 Never run terminators on foot or they'll catch any snd all firepower your opponent has. They also move too slow to do anything. If you want a cheaper option with them, take a dreadclaw and stick five of them in there. You can still use it as a flyer since the rite of war doesn't allow deep strike. Two mortis kheresnaughts with tank hunter? That sounds pretty great actually. As for infantry blobs, I think it depends on the legion. For IH and IF players, I'd say blobs work really well. For my DAs, they don't do quite as much and I feel like with all the firepower on the table, they'll just get blown up without doing much. Ultra blobs sound pretty good though, you can give them counter attack, reroll charges, and get BS2 for over watch. I'd recommend running squads of 15-20 with a power weapon sgt and extra ccws on the tacticals to use the benefits. Finally, what does your list look like? I can't quite judge what it needs if I don't know what you already have :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308043-id-like-the-advice-of-the-more-practiced-legion-players/#findComment-4055034 Share on other sites More sharing options...
infyrana Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 People are rating the deredeo over the kheres contemptor for rules and potency compared to points. A lot of choice depends on available slots and Rites of War, plus fluff choices. Some only have a single fast attack slot, so plenty of room for tactical support squads over FA. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308043-id-like-the-advice-of-the-more-practiced-legion-players/#findComment-4055038 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted May 23, 2015 Author Share Posted May 23, 2015 The Deredeo is absolutely brilliant - I've fought against one, and seen it in action during a few games - it's a useful unit that works well by itself. Unfortunately my heavy slots are spoken for. I want to run the Primarch in a Landraider alongside a squad of the new Invictarus Suzerains. In support I have a Sicaran and two Deimos Vindicator Tank Destroyers. (I already own the Primarch and all the tanks so I want to use them) As my HQ I'm thinking of a cheap Centurion with a Thunder Hammer, possibly a Consul upgrade to Chaplain... So I'm really trying to fill out the rest of my force as effectively as possible. I've used the Sicaran and the Vindis in lots of 40 games and they have performed brilliantly so I wouldn't be willing to drop them. What is the best use of 250 - 275 points for an army not lacking a strong cc unit and has ranged punch? More bodies? AA? I could re-jig a few things to fit 2 Mortis Kheres Contemptors with Tank Hunters... But I'd have to run my Marines on foot. It would leave my infantry slow and exposed and limit me to just a few units, but it would be a list that spams av13 which is effective in today's meta. Alternatively I can easily fit a squad of Volkite Caliver Support Tacticals but I don't think highly enough of the weapon as the range isn't quite enough for real board control. Slow and Purposeful from a Cataphractii character doesn't confer, does it? Doesn't feel like my experience with 40k marines truly translates to the 30k Legions! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308043-id-like-the-advice-of-the-more-practiced-legion-players/#findComment-4055072 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flint13 Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 You did a good job of summing up the paradigm shift with your last line there, Ishagu. 40k marines =/= 30k Astartes, as well as not really being comparable to common 40k power units, as you have seen. They "meta" is hella different as whether you're looking at 30k or 30 vs 40, so It's good we've gotten those common misconceptions out of the way ^_^ A couple of things to keep in mind from the points you touched on above. Concerning a Primarch and a bodyguard, understand that they will be a collosal points investment that will be difficult to utilize effectively. When you take a primarch and a close comat bodyguard, they will be points not spent on things that will be able to retaliate at range. So have a *very* clear idea of what job they will accomplish within your list, especially since any opponent will be doing their absolute best to make sure they never see combat. It's difficult to provide realistic target saturation when a Primarch, transport and bodyguard can easily absorb a third or more of a 2500pt list. For a good 250-ish point addition, I'd recommend a Deredeo since they aren't super niche specialized, they'll be useful no matter what opposition you'll run into. As for Kheres contemptors, they're pretty brutal, if a bit short ranged. Contemptor mortis are typically awesome regardless of equipment. The best I can recommend is to proxy it a couple of times and see what you enjoy the most. Hope that helps a bit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308043-id-like-the-advice-of-the-more-practiced-legion-players/#findComment-4055172 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted May 23, 2015 Author Share Posted May 23, 2015 Is there any reason that no one seems to talk about the Quad Heavy Bolter gun battery? I can fire 18 twin linked str5 shots from a t7 unit for 120 points. This is super efficiency. Are these best run in units of two or three? The Thud Gun is also impressive, but I'm not sure if it's worth the points over the Quad Bolter as I have quite a bit of ranged str7 - 9... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308043-id-like-the-advice-of-the-more-practiced-legion-players/#findComment-4055299 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 Is there any reason that no one seems to talk about the Quad Heavy Bolter gun battery? I can fire 18 twin linked str5 shots from a t7 unit for 120 points. This is super efficiency.Are these best run in units of two or three? They're just meh. It's heavy bolters, they don't do quite that well against marine targets. Even against Solar Auxilia and the like that they'd be useful against, the targets would either have cover or be in a transport. Against MEQs: 12 hits, rerolls give 4 more. So 16 hits. 10.3 wounds against T4 Armor saves made...roughly 6.86, so 7 saves. 3 dead marines. If they have an apothecary, then 2 dead marines. It's just using 120 points to kill 20-30 points worth of models. Yeah they're tough, but they're not doing much. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308043-id-like-the-advice-of-the-more-practiced-legion-players/#findComment-4055321 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flint13 Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 Depth did a really good job explaining the heavy bolters, so let me touch on the thudd guns. The benefit of the quad mortar is the versatility. Strength 5 small blast doesn't sound like a lot, but you start forcing quite a few saves with 4 templates per battery. Then if even one wound goes through, your enemy is testing on a reduced Ld for a pinning check. Couple that with the shatter shells (Str8 Ap4, sunder) which are phenomenal, essentially turning each battery into a less accurate mini-Deredeo, and you have a really really good value. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308043-id-like-the-advice-of-the-more-practiced-legion-players/#findComment-4055329 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted May 23, 2015 Author Share Posted May 23, 2015 So is there merit to running the batteries in full squads of 3 or is 2 the preferable option? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308043-id-like-the-advice-of-the-more-practiced-legion-players/#findComment-4055349 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 So is there merit to running the batteries in full squads of 3 or is 2 the preferable option? Look at it this way: 3 Thudd Guns Per battery = 12 3" Pinning Blasts or 12 S8 Sunder Shots. You have 4 Elites Slots with the basic FoC. Or 3 Graviton Cannons Per Battery = 3 5" Blasts of Haywire and Difficult + Dangerous Terrain. In 30k, most of the Time Bigger is better. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308043-id-like-the-advice-of-the-more-practiced-legion-players/#findComment-4055352 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flint13 Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 Haywire is pretty darn effective at stripping hull points, I'll grant you. Especially when you're looking at AV14 flare shields. I've typically found that when you're going with haywire as a means of anti-vehicle, you really have to cram a bunch of it in. Go big or go home ^_^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308043-id-like-the-advice-of-the-more-practiced-legion-players/#findComment-4055368 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 I swear by my three Thudds (Sounds like an old 80's tv show. Must be on after Alf.). I've ruined so many days with these damn things, it's a little ridiculous. They've out-arty'd my Earthshakers, and my whirlwinds, they're easy to dig into cover, and they always make their points back. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308043-id-like-the-advice-of-the-more-practiced-legion-players/#findComment-4055385 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reyner Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 Maybe a dumb question here guys but does the Siege Breaker buff the mortars on the thudd guns? Sounds quite awesome if he can. Sunder plus tank hunter sounds mean (I can't remember what Wrecker does but could be nice too). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308043-id-like-the-advice-of-the-more-practiced-legion-players/#findComment-4055406 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 Maybe a dumb question here guys but does the Siege Breaker buff the mortars on the thudd guns? Sounds quite awesome if he can. Sunder plus tank hunter sounds mean (I can't remember what Wrecker does but could be nice too). I'd have to re-read their Entry but I think Siege Breakers only give tank hunters to Heavy Support Squads. ...if they could give Tank Hunters to Thudd Guns (WHICH THE ULTRAMARINES CAN BY THE WAY!), you'd see a lot more Siege Breakers. Nevermind. Wrecker is a rule specifically for taking Buildings down. Not that useful. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308043-id-like-the-advice-of-the-more-practiced-legion-players/#findComment-4055410 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 There's no need for Tank Hunter, you've already got Sunder. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308043-id-like-the-advice-of-the-more-practiced-legion-players/#findComment-4055414 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 There's no need for Tank Hunter, you've already got Sunder. ..yes. Theres that too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308043-id-like-the-advice-of-the-more-practiced-legion-players/#findComment-4055417 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 Wrecker is a rule specifically for taking Buildings down. Not that useful. I disagree, but to each their own. I've found it to be quite helpful, as I can change the dynamic of a battlefield and force my opponent to alter previous plans of attack, or open lanes of assault for myself by weakening defensive structures. Ensuring every alley and street is filled with either phosphex or 155mm helps too, of course, lol. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308043-id-like-the-advice-of-the-more-practiced-legion-players/#findComment-4055431 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 Wrecker is a rule specifically for taking Buildings down. Not that useful. I disagree, but to each their own. I've found it to be quite helpful, as I can change the dynamic of a battlefield and force my opponent to alter previous plans of attack, or open lanes of assault for myself by weakening defensive structures. Ensuring every alley and street is filled with either phosphex or 155mm helps too, of course, lol. Well, yes. If there are a lot of buildings on the Field and you want them gone yesterday, Wrecker is Great. Especially if they're betting on Fortifications for some of their Strategies. But I don't really face much buildings that I need to turn to rubble so its mostly superfluous for me hence why its lessened value. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308043-id-like-the-advice-of-the-more-practiced-legion-players/#findComment-4055432 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phalanx Warder Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 The best advice I can give you is hold off until you have the appropriate information on the Ultra Marine Legion to decide if you want to use the Legion RoW, I know that I started buying and painting Fists with no clue of what the Legion RoW looked like or any of the buffs I was going to get by taking IF characters, for a while I had a playable list but it just was not in line with the rules I wanted to leverage from my Legion once I had a good handle on the rules. I have had good success with the 1 large Tactical blob that I regularly use however I use Alexis Polox to grant them Deep Strike and have Voxes on my 2 Graviton equipped breacher squads for that no scatter arrival and they have always done well and arrive where I need them if not exactly when I need them. For me the Kheres mortis is an auto include, it can reliably scuttle Rhinos and lays waste to infantry. My opponents know this and with some clever deployment techniques it can force an enemy to play to my game plan and has helped me many a time. The other unit that performs well for me is my Legion Heavy Support squad with Auto Cannons, but if Volkite is more your thing then that's an easy swap. Hope that helps Brother best of luck with your list/army building endeavors! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308043-id-like-the-advice-of-the-more-practiced-legion-players/#findComment-4055561 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kriegriss Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 legion heavy support with auto cannon elaborate I was told they were very lack luster so have avoided them even though I think the look amazing Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308043-id-like-the-advice-of-the-more-practiced-legion-players/#findComment-4058805 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brofist Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 I'm a big fan of thudd guns, especially with Iron Hand rules. 60 points for T8 and 4 woulds? Fantastic for the utility they bring. I like to take two units of two. Regarding tactical blobs- it depends on your list and meta, but I tend to get good results using a single large blob. Mind you, I play exclusively 1500-1850 points with 40k armies and large blast templates aren't very popular in 7th. In this case, a blob of x20 T5 marines marching up the board can be tough to deal with. I usually stick a navigator and apothecary into the unit to drive home the great bullet sponge. I don't think I'd bring more than one, however, because it's one is usually enough. Deployment is really important with it too. In larger games or when playing exclusively 30k on 30k you're more likely to be blown off the table with high strength large blast shooting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308043-id-like-the-advice-of-the-more-practiced-legion-players/#findComment-4059342 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phalanx Warder Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 legion heavy support with auto cannon elaborate I was told they were very lack luster so have avoided them even though I think the look amazing For me they have always put out a lot of wounds, though marines do get a save they are looking at 10+ wounds of 3+ saves to have to make. That coupled with them not having ATSKNF it has always played well for me. I do make sure to always use them on concert with other weapons, I don't lean on them to always operate alone and as always its how the die are cast that makes them work or fail. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308043-id-like-the-advice-of-the-more-practiced-legion-players/#findComment-4060763 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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